CCLSC conversation with TF (18 Viewers)

[fernandopartridge]

Look. I don't know what the club need (as opposed to what the club want) not do I know what ACL can give or want to give.

It may well be that ACL simply can't offer what CCFC want and we have to build a new ground. Fine.

What I do know is that the club should not be in Northampton. I do know the club is better off in the short term at the Ricoh than at Sixfields.

Apparently some disagree and would rather we wait at Sixfields than come home in the interim. I'd just like to know why.

That's it. In this clamour for transparency, nobody seems to care what ACL are capable of offering.

 

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[Hobo]

You're happy for the club to pay an above market rate to play at the Ricoh just to prop up ACL?

I think they should get round the table and discuss a deal that is SUBJECT to dropping the JR. The deal should be one that cannot be renegotiated to CCFC's detriment during its life.

Nothing is stopping a discussion.

FP despite ACL's stance in the media, I don't see why SISU could not have sent their proposal directly to them.

It all smacks of both sides still trying to play games with each other...I don't see us any nearer to getting both parties negotiating a deal.

 

[shmmeee]

That's it. In this clamour for transparency, nobody seems to care what ACL are capable of offering.

And no one knows what CCFC are asking for. Hence why we should get involved as were at the behest of info from biased sources.

What we do know (taking Robs post for gospel) is that a year ago CCFC were willing to accept £400k rent reduced to £300k if negotiations with Compass didn't go well. Now they want £175k with all revenue and ACL to sort out Compass. So their demands are getting bigger.

I'll ask again as you seem to be allergic to the question: why should we stay at Sixfields in the interim while the long term future is sorted?

 

[italiahorse]

All I know is that ..

CCFC would be better off playing at the Ricoh taking anyone of the offers given.
ACL would be better off having CCFC at the Ricoh.

However SISU would not achieve their planned profit if the club is at the Ricoh.
At what point will SISU realise that it really is impossible for them and this 'is' the top of the business cycle for 'them' ?

 

[fernandopartridge]

And no one knows what CCFC are asking for. Hence why we should get involved as were at the behest of info from biased sources.

What we do know (taking Robs post for gospel) is that a year ago CCFC were willing to accept £400k rent reduced to £300k if negotiations with Compass didn't go well. Now they want £175k with all revenue and ACL to sort out Compass. So their demands are getting bigger.

I'll ask again as you seem to be allergic to the question: why should we stay at Sixfields in the interim while the long term future is sorted?

You're using somebody else's words a mine. I certainly do not think staying at Northampton is of any benefit.

 

[shmmeee]

For me it's simple:

ACL won't trust Sisu to have access to their books while Sisu have legal action out.

Sisu won't return without match day income.

Sisu either decide short term match day income is worth more than the JR and drop the appeal. Or they admit publicly that that isn't the case and stay in Northampton or accept a short term deal with no revenue.

 

[Godiva]

How will Acl being owned by Sisu benefit CCFC. I hardly think CCFC would get away with only paying 175k a year rent to a Sisu/Arvo company ?

This line of argument is a consequence of sisu's strategy of funding the club through loans.

But come the day sell up, they will only receive what the buyer is prepared to pay. Then it doesn't matter how much money they are owed. They will receive the value of the business. That means they may not receive all they have invested. Or should the club have some success on the football field they may get more than they have invested.
The point is the price a buyer is prepared to pay will be decided by the profitability of the business. Not the amount of loans or the rent the club pays to the stadium management subsidy.

And until the club is profitable any money taken out of the club must be put back in again.

 

[Rob S]

One big problem we as fans have is that

1. ACL seem to be OK with things ticking over as they are with maybe the addition of some more hotel space and a sports franchise (*blergh*) and
2. Sisu seem happy to bunker down in Sixfields until they can build a new stadium

As much as people might think that one side should do more or is more responsible, until they both get their respective chairs kicked out from underneath them, they can keep this going on for much longer.

 

[shmmeee]

You're using somebody else's words a mine. I certainly do not think staying at Northampton is of any benefit.

Great. We're on the same page.

With that in mind, would you accept in a short term deal, the specifics aren't as important as getting the deal done? I.e it's better to be at the Ricoh with no revenue than at Sixfields with it?

If that's the case then you should agree with me that Sisu dropping the legal action or the request for revenues has to happen as a short term measure to get us back. Similarly ACL should accept the money from the FL will come.

That's all I want is a short term return. My gut says that ACL won't give what Sisu want and ultimately either Sisu will go or well build a new ground.

All I see are a lot of people getting excited but not looking at the details. Sisu are asking for more now for a short term deal than they were for a long term one earlier. It's even less likely to happen. It's set up to fail and push people to blaming the other side. They keep doing it and people keep falling for it. It frustrates me.

 

[Monners]

Great. We're on the same page.

With that in mind, would you accept in a short term deal, the specifics aren't as important as getting the deal done? I.e it's better to be at the Ricoh with no revenue than at Sixfields with it?

If that's the case then you should agree with me that Sisu dropping the legal action or the request for revenues has to happen as a short term measure to get us back. Similarly ACL should accept the money from the FL will come.

That's all I want is a short term return. My gut says that ACL won't give what Sisu want and ultimately either Sisu will go or well build a new ground.

All I see are a lot of people getting excited but not looking at the details. Sisu are asking for more now for a short term deal than they were for a long term one earlier. It's even less likely to happen. It's set up to fail and push people to blaming the other side. They keep doing it and people keep falling for it. It frustrates me.

That pretty much sums it up for me also

 

[Hobo]

One big problem we as fans have is that

1. ACL seem to be OK with things ticking over as they are with maybe the addition of some more hotel space and a sports franchise (*blergh*) and
2. Sisu seem happy to bunker down in Sixfields until they can build a new stadium

As much as people might think that one side should do more or is more responsible, until they both get their respective chairs kicked out from underneath them, they can keep this going on for much longer.

I think you are spot on Rob. Unfortunately a lot of fans seemed to think a return was imminent, or at least that was the rumour a few days ago.

I think the chess games still has some way to go yet. I see no signs of either side weakening or showing the desire for serious negotiation.

 

[Godiva]

That's it. In this clamour for transparency, nobody seems to care what ACL are capable of offering.

Thing is - I don't think they can offer a £175k rent.
But if they can't, then they can surely not survive the club playing in Northampton?

 

[shmmeee]

Thing is - I don't think they can offer a £175k rent.
But if they can't, then they can surely not survive the club playing in Northampton?

If they can't then they can't. Do you really want to pin your hopes on the Council calling in a loan on a company owned by them and a local charity? Assuming the appeal goes nowhere (which I think every sane person expects) then why else would they go bust? And of they did, why would Sisu get ownership?

The last short term rent offer from ACL was free and then £100k IIRC. So it looks like they think they can offer it.

 

[stupot07]

Lol !!
Maybe the cash cow called CCFC !!
Where's the CW money gone ?
Where's the Arsenal money gone ?
Where's the LC money gone ?
Where's the Juke money gone ?

Operating costs. You do know that we have been losing millions every year at the Ricoh? Our last season at the Ricoh on league one whilst cashing on bigi, keogh, compensation for robins, PL promotion payments for turner and Gunnar, 2 massive away cup ties (arsenal and Tottenham), whilst not paying any rent that we lost £7.2m that year?


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[shmmeee]

Operating costs. You do know that we have been losing millions every year at the Ricoh? Our last season at the Ricoh on league one whilst cashing on bigi, keogh, compensation for robins, PL promotion payments for turner and Gunnar, 2 massive away cup ties (arsenal and Tottenham), whilst not paying any rent that we lost £7.2m that year?


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C'mon now stu. Those operating costs would've been well covered by gate receipts and merchandise alone at the Ricoh. The money needed was to cover the shortfall from being in Northampton.

One thing we should praise Joy for is seemingly doing the cost cutting others couldn't. Ironically, the only thing currently scuppering her dream of a self sufficient club is the pitiful crowds and merchandise sales.

 

[Hobo]

Operating costs. You do know that we have been losing millions every year at the Ricoh? Our last season at the Ricoh on league one whilst cashing on bigi, keogh, compensation for robins, PL promotion payments for turner and Gunnar, 2 massive away cup ties (arsenal and Tottenham), whilst not paying any rent that we lost £7.2m that year?


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The operating costs weren't all about the rent though. There is a strong consensus it was too high, but it was not our biggest out going. A lot of money was going on wages and ex staff which shows general poor management of funds.

 

[Godiva]

If they can't then they can't. Do you really want to pin your hopes on the Council calling in a loan on a company owned by them and a local charity? Assuming the appeal goes nowhere (which I think every sane person expects) then why else would they go bust? And of they did, why would Sisu get ownership?

The last short term rent offer from ACL was free and then £100k IIRC. So it looks like they think they can offer it.

If they can't I would hope responsible owners would consider a change of strategy sooner rather than later.
If they can - they should just start talking instead of issuing ultimatums.

The problem with the appeal is it will take too long to benefit the club. Even if sisu wins it could take years and the club be on the brink of moving into a new stadium. Then only sisu may benefit as they will surely go back and apply for damages.

The 'Free' offer (subsequently 100K per year) was made in a different scenario during the administration I think? And with no revenues etc.

 

[lordsummerisle]

C'mon now stu. Those operating costs would've been well covered by gate receipts and merchandise alone at the Ricoh. The money needed was to cover the shortfall from being in Northampton.

One thing we should praise Joy for is seemingly doing the cost cutting others couldn't. Ironically, the only thing currently scuppering her dream of a self sufficient club is the pitiful crowds and merchandise sales.

That was from when we were at the Ricoh, before we got to Northampton.

 

[stupot07]

C'mon now stu. Those operating costs would've been well covered by gate receipts and merchandise alone at the Ricoh. The money needed was to cover the shortfall from being in Northampton.

One thing we should praise Joy for is seemingly doing the cost cutting others couldn't. Ironically, the only thing currently scuppering her dream of a self sufficient club is the pitiful crowds and merchandise sales.

I'm pretty sure OSB has done some estimates on here that still show that the club would making significant losses at the Ricoh.

Also John included Juke in his list of transactions.

Yes, this money will be bridging the gap of being at Northampton but I don't believe sisu are taking that money out.


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[stupot07]

The operating costs weren't all about the rent though. There is a strong consensus it was too high, but it was not our biggest out going. A lot of money was going on wages and ex staff which shows general poor management of funds.

I wasn't talking about the rent. it was johns assertion that we sell players then sisu pocket the money. In fact we weren't paying rent that season.


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[Kingokings204]

At the end of the day.

Sisu need to come back and ACL need sisu to come back. Both will die without eachother.

Ultimately we need both owed by the same owner but until that happens then common sense has to say we kick off the season at the Ricoh. Last minute or not it has to happen. If it doesn't ccfc does and the council will keep ACL afloat. Administration isn't an option for the council.

August 7th will be the defining day. I'm convinced though obviously not certain sisu will drop the appeal in return for a interim deal so the payment is all that's left to decide.

Make no mistake sisu want to come back to the Ricoh and they know the club won't survive if it kicks off in Northampton. We hve been told this by everyone including ccfc directors so its Ricoh or bust.

 

[sky blue john]

If they can't I would hope responsible owners would consider a change of strategy sooner rather than later.
If they can - they should just start talking instead of issuing ultimatums.

The problem with the appeal is it will take too long to benefit the club. Even if sisu wins it could take years and the club be on the brink of moving into a new stadium. Then only sisu may benefit as they will surely go back and apply for damages.

The 'Free' offer (subsequently 100K per year) was made in a different scenario during the administration I think? And with no revenues etc.

So what I don't understand is why you are saying Sisu should continue with the JR. When you know full well it only could benefit Sisu with damages in the end. Going on for years and what distressed state will CCFC be left in ?

 

[italiahorse]

No he's saying that SISU need a bargaining tool as much as ACL do.

But it's not a bargaining tool as ACL could still refinance elsewhere now that they are ticking over in 'safe mode'.
IMHO the £590K would further secure the business case and I believe SISU know this, hence the reluctance to hand it over.

SISU need to negotiate for what these income streams are worth and this will only happen when the court process has exhausted.

As a CCFC fan it would be nice if CCC said we give up and CCFC can have the Ricoh bowl and all within it for a silly £20M.
But in reality this is not going to happen so SISU need to take this on board.
CCC/ACL need to understand the long term problems of the club and accommodate them as best they can.

 

[fernandopartridge]

But it's not a bargaining tool as ACL could still refinance elsewhere now that they are ticking over in 'safe mode'.
IMHO the £590K would further secure the business case and I believe SISU know this, hence the reluctance to hand it over.

SISU need to negotiate for what these income streams are worth and this will only happen when the court process has exhausted.

As a CCFC fan it would be nice if CCC said we give up and CCFC can have the Ricoh bowl and all within it for a silly £20M.
But in reality this is not going to happen so SISU need to take this on board.
CCC/ACL need to understand the long term problems of the club and accommodate them as best they can.

Why the insistence that the case is dropped then?

 

[Kingokings204]

Why the insistence that the case is dropped then?

So ccfc can come home ASAP?

 

[sky blue john]

At the end of the day.

Sisu need to come back and ACL need sisu to come back. Both will die without eachother.

Ultimately we need both owed by the same owner but until that happens then common sense has to say we kick off the season at the Ricoh. Last minute or not it has to happen. If it doesn't ccfc does and the council will keep ACL afloat. Administration isn't an option for the council.

August 7th will be the defining day. I'm convinced though obviously not certain sisu will drop the appeal in return for a interim deal so the payment is all that's left to decide.

Make no mistake sisu want to come back to the Ricoh and they know the club won't survive if it kicks off in Northampton. We hve been told this by everyone including ccfc directors so its Ricoh or bust.

I will take bust then !!
My reasoning is based on the following points.
1) Sisu can't be trusted ever to do what is right for CCFC and the fans.
2) Sisu's 50-70million created debt will cripple us from being competitive on the pitch for generations. So the only way to get rid of it would be an admin process.
3) I'm not concerned with admin because the last process proved there are other investors out there that would be interested.
4) New owners would create a clean slate and be able to negotiate a return and stake in the Ricoh.

 

[James Smith]

So you are happy to apply pressure on Sisu to drop their appeal but consider ACL to be unreasonable by asking for the JR to be dropped?

Just because sisu have a right to appeal doesn't mean that appealing is right.

As I said before Sisu have every right to ask for an appeal and to appeal a decision that they can't appeal. But there has to be an element of

"Pack it in Frank you silly bastard!" (c)Hot Fuzz

Given the language used by Mr Justice Hickinbottom in his judgement.

Pack it in and get on with the business of running our club.

 

[skybluetony176]

Why the insistence that the case is dropped then?

I think its a good will gesture. If sisu do as ACL have requested, ACL will have saved sisu thousands maybe more than a million pounds in pointless legal fee's

Sounds like they'll be doing sisu a big favour if they can convince them to drop the appeal. Isn't that nice of them?

It also has the added bonus of removing one of the barriers thats stopping us returning home. But why would we be interested in that?

 

[Kingokings204]

I will take bust then !!
My reasoning is based on the following points.
1) Sisu can't be trusted ever to do what is right for CCFC and the fans.
2) Sisu's 50-70million created debt will cripple us from being competitive on the pitch for generations. So the only way to get rid of it would be an admin process.
3) I'm not concerned with admin because the last process proved there are other investors out there that would be interested.
4) New owners would create a clean slate and be able to negotiate a return and stake in the Ricoh.

I would rather the club exists myself but the points you make are correct.

We just need to come home. A lot will be solved straight away and the longer term plan can be worked on.

 

[sky blue john]

I would rather the club exists myself but the points you make are correct.

We just need to come home. A lot will be solved straight away and the longer term plan can be worked on.

Yes obviously I want us back but not at any cost and left in limbo with Sisu and a massive unsustainable debt in tow.

 

[Houdi]

If ACL were in any kind of financial trouble then surely they would have accepted the CVA last year, which would have resulted in them receiving £590,000 immediately. The very fact that they were willing to reject the CVA ,surely gives some indication that there financial /cash flow situation is not too bad.
Why people still cling to the notion of a new stadium is baffling,when there is simply no shred of evidence to support it. TF admitted months ago (Shareholder's meeting)that the 3 years has even then ,slipped to 4 years. It is SISU who are rapidly running out of options, not the other way. Indeed in a couple of weeks time ACL, will in all probability be looking at a cash injection of upto £590,000. That is effectively 3/4 years of the rent they would be receiving from SISU, if any deal was concluded.
In the current battle of wills,it looks like ACL can comfortably out wait SISU. Yes SISU can probably now afford another season at SIxfields, they surely can't obfuscate on a new stadium indefinitely.

 

[fernandopartridge]

If ACL were in any kind of financial trouble then surely they would have accepted the CVA last year, which would have resulted in them receiving £590,000 immediately. The very fact that they were willing to reject the CVA ,surely gives some indication that there financial /cash flow situation is not too bad.
Why people still cling to the notion of a new stadium is baffling,when there is simply no shred of evidence to support it. TF admitted months ago (Shareholder's meeting)that the 3 years has even then ,slipped to 4 years. It is SISU who are rapidly running out of options, not the other way. Indeed in a couple of weeks time ACL, will in all probability be looking at a cash injection of upto £590,000. That is effectively 3/4 years of the rent they would be receiving from SISU, if any deal was concluded.
In the current battle of wills,it looks like ACL can comfortably out wait SISU. Yes SISU can probably now afford another season at SIxfields, they surely can't obfuscate on a new stadium indefinitely.

Anybody would reject a CVA when you were guaranteed the payment regardless

 

[Houdi]

Anybody would reject a CVA when you were guaranteed the payment regardless

But from memory they weren't guaranteed the payments though. The money now due was purely a condition imposed by the FL on Otium, in return for the Golden Share, and is not legally connected to the administration process. So when they rejected the CVA they couldn't have known that the FL would impose that condition.

 

[Godiva]

So what I don't understand is why you are saying Sisu should continue with the JR. When you know full well it only could benefit Sisu with damages in the end. Going on for years and what distressed state will CCFC be left in ?

They should continue with The JR because appeal is a corner stone in the legal system. The appeal mechanism is there to protect you and me - everyone. To deprive sisu their right to appeal is simply wrong.
If they are granted right to appeal soon it could potentially benefit the club, but if they have to go to the EU commission it might just take too long. Still they have the right to do it - and they should.

 

[fernandopartridge]

But from memory they weren't guaranteed the payments though. The money now due was purely a condition imposed by the FL on Otium, in return for the Golden Share, and is not legally connected to the administration process. So when they rejected the CVA they couldn't have known that the FL would impose that condition.

Fair point. They did approach MM & GR about the guarantee mind....