Revenues - how much are they worth? (16 Viewers)

[skybluetony176]

Can you name 1 other football in the league that doesn't have match day revenues?

Depends. Can you name 1 other club in the football league who has sold it's rights to match day revenues?

 

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[James Smith]

The point I am making is that we sold them off over a 50 year lease. To purchase them for 3 years is a fraction of the selling price. £50,000 a year is 50% of the profit generated by ACL at its peak for these revenues. Therefore they should easily be packaged in a short term deal for the clubs benefit.

What's with the three years? Are you coming round to the idea that we're going to need to actually build a new stadium, hence the limited rental period at the Ricoh?

 

[Grendel]

I don't know, not an expert in that area. I also don't know how many sold theirs on and haven't bought them back, again not an expert.

Depends. Can you name 1 other club in the football league who has sold it's rights to match day revenues?

They sold them in a package for half of ACL over a 50 year lease. Even if you assume half (generous) of that sale is for this revenue that is £60,000 a season and that was when prior owners were budgeting on twice the revenue they have now.

Can both of you answer one question with a one word answer.

What's the value of the revenues without the club?

 

[Jack Griffin]

What's with the three years? Are you coming round to the idea that we're going to need to actually build a new stadium, hence the limited rental period at the Ricoh?

Why would ACL accept a short term deal unless they are losing money? Last night Steven Pressely said on CWR radio that he believed building a new stadium was still in the owners plans.

So in that case, in hard nosed business terms, wouldn't ACL be better to find a stable long term alternative for their business rather than letting a competitor build a stadium nearby to undermine their sustainability within a few years? If SISU want a deal then it has to be for the long term, with conditions negotiable and harsh penalties backed by insurance for breaking the contract..

I know many people want a quick resolution, but not settling the long term situation is just putting off inevitable trouble.. SISU are in a very weak position, it is time for ACL to use the negotiating technique SISU used and move the goal posts.

 

[shmmeee]

You said £2 million for 3 years was a starting point. Given the profit under ACL would be £300,000 over 3 years I would say you are not an accountant.

Oh sorry I was talking buying outright not a 3 year lease.

Frankly for 3 years I'd give them away. But if we can agree terms for 3 years why not 30?

 

[skybluetony176]

They sold them in a package for half of ACL over a 50 year lease. Even if you assume half (generous) of that sale is for this revenue that is £60,000 a season and that was when prior owners were budgeting on twice the revenue they have now.

Can both of you answer one question with a one word answer.

What's the value of the revenues without the club?

In answer to your original question. No I can't.

Now.

Can you name 1 other club who's sold it's rights to match day income.

Or even.

Can you name 1 other club who was given 50% of the management company that runs the stadium they play in for free only to sell that share at a later date?

 

[shmmeee]

What's the value of the revenues without the club?

Depends what else the time and resources can be used for.

How much are the club saving at Northampton in the interim?

 

[James Smith]

They sold them in a package for half of ACL over a 50 year lease. Even if you assume half (generous) of that sale is for this revenue that is £60,000 a season and that was when prior owners were budgeting on twice the revenue they have now.

Can both of you answer one question with a one word answer.

What's the value of the revenues without the club?

No. (10 chars)

 

[James Smith]

They sold them in a package for half of ACL over a 50 year lease. Even if you assume half (generous) of that sale is for this revenue that is £60,000 a season and that was when prior owners were budgeting on twice the revenue they have now.

Can both of you answer one question with a one word answer.

What's the value of the revenues without the club?

They sold them in a package for half of ACL over a 50 year lease. Even if you assume half (generous) of that sale is for this revenue that is £60,000 a season and that was when prior owners were budgeting on twice the revenue they have now.

Can both of you answer one question with a one word answer.

What's the value of the revenues without the club?

I wouldn't be able to answer because I haven't seen the accounts of IEC which would be the ideal place to start. Although I would need to hire someone to help me translate them into English and make an expert opinion. I think you'd need to know what the current revenue is without the club and it would also be interesting to know whether the events etc. that are taking place currently at a weekend could do so if we were playing our home games there. The hotel can't use the corporate boxes, the number of function rooms is reduced etc. Also whether these events are generating more or less revenue than when we were there.

 

[chiefdave]

Depends what else the time and resources can be used for.

Good point. What generates more revenue, 10K turning up for a couple of hours on a Saturday for one of our home games or 10K turning up for Insomnia which runs for 3 days, all day and into the evening?

I think the answer will be obvious so the question then becomes could ACL have booked Insomnia if we were playing there. Chances are they couldn't, we would need first call on the stadium (and the stadium bowl is being used for that event) and the fixtures come out relatively late to be booking events in around them.

We all want the club back at the Ricoh but there has to be some level of realism about what ACL will give up for the short term benefit of the club when they will have to continue operating the Ricoh as a profitable business when the club leaves again, supposedly in three years. If we're talking about the club doing back permanently that's a different matter.

 

[ccfcway]

Grendal, who cares, its a short term loss that SISU are happy to cover, until we build the new stadium where they get access to all of the revenues.

We are now a year into a 3 or possibly 5 year project, so all will come good in the next 2-4 years.

Rejoice !

 

[Grendel]

Good point. What generates more revenue, 10K turning up for a couple of hours on a Saturday for one of our home games or 10K turning up for Insomnia which runs for 3 days, all day and into the evening?

I think the answer will be obvious so the question then becomes could ACL have booked Insomnia if we were playing there. Chances are they couldn't, we would need first call on the stadium (and the stadium bowl is being used for that event) and the fixtures come out relatively late to be booking events in around them.

We all want the club back at the Ricoh but there has to be some level of realism about what ACL will give up for the short term benefit of the club when they will have to continue operating the Ricoh as a profitable business when the club leaves again, supposedly in three years. If we're talking about the club doing back permanently that's a different matter.

How many Insomnia events are there in a year and how many have there been since the club left?

The notion that such events are more profitable than a football club in permanent residence is absurd. We now know the sponsors are likely to jump ship -- with the club back a new deal there is far more likely.

Also if ACL operate the F and B catering at such events. the profit is 10% of revenue at best -- a negligible return

 

[James Smith]

How many Insomnia events are there in a year and how many have there been since the club left?

We don't know how busy they actually are though do we. What appears on their website isn't likely to be everything they are hosting. They don't seem to list weddings or corporate conferences etc. So we have no idea what facilities they are using at the weekends or the hotel numbers which may be using the corporate boxes.

The notion that such events are more profitable than a football club in permanent residence is absurd. We now know the sponsors are likely to jump ship -- with the club back a new deal there is far more likely.

Which you can back up with figures I expect.

Also if ACL operate the F and B catering at such events. the profit is 10% of revenue at best -- a negligible return

ACL don't operate the F&B IEC do.

 

[Grendel]

We don't know how busy they actually are though do we. What appears on their website isn't likely to be everything they are hosting. They don't seem to list weddings or corporate conferences etc. So we have no idea what facilities they are using at the weekends or the hotel numbers which may be using the corporate boxes.
Which you can back up with figures I expect.


ACL don't operate the F&B IEC do.

This is actually absurd. Your comment regarding weddings and hospitality would make a conclusion that owners of a football stadium would be better suited to booting the clubs out and running weddings and conferences. Have you been to a conference at the Ricoh? I have and its an average experience. The hotel confuses me -- I thought ACL did not own it - I thought it was De Vere. 19 rooms available one night this week when I looked.

Your premise suggests;

Build a football ground

Use it for weddings -- it makes more money

Sorry - your logic is absurd. If it is not absurd many football clubs would be homeless.

If this is the case why lease it at all to non league under 21's and womens football teams.

I fear for Swansea -- I suspect they will be homeless next season as some people will want to get married at the ground.

Idiotic.

 

[Grendel]

Oh and James I've been to many many conferences and none have been on a Saturday.

 

[chiefdave]

How many Insomnia events are there in a year and how many have there been since the club left?

The notion that such events are more profitable than a football club in permanent residence is absurd. We now know the sponsors are likely to jump ship -- with the club back a new deal there is far more likely.

Also if ACL operate the F and B catering at such events. the profit is 10% of revenue at best -- a negligible return

Your argument is very strange. You're saying it is essential for us to get F&B revenues if we return but you then suggest they should be sold to us at a low price as they aren't worth much. You then dismiss other events that will most likely bring in more revenue than our matches as irrelevant. So which is it, is the F&B worth having or is it not?

A quick google tells me this is the second Insomnia event this year, both at weekends so the booking may well not have been made if we were still playing there. The events last for 3 days, and nights, and attract more people than our home games. I would not be at all surprised if those 2 events alone generate more revenue than all our home games over a season. Who is likely to spend more, somewhere who is there for a couple of hours for a football match or someone who is there all day?

The Ricoh is not just a football stadium, if it was we may not have all theses problems. Whilst industry events will most likely take place in the week anything open to the pubic is more likely to be held on a weekend. Should ACL continue growing that side of the business they could be financially better off than with us there. It might also be more attractive to some types of sponsors, its an unknown so you can't assert as fact that the value of sponsorship drops with the club not there. For example if there is the same number of people in attendance over the course of a year would Ricoh prefer them to be football supporters or business people who might actually buy their products?

 

[Como]

F&B is a red herring, small beer.

Part of the issue is that the Club is only looking at a short term rental, for a few years and for the days home games are played.

Sponsorship deals etc do not really come into it. Not like the mega bucks Man U get for example, these are long term contracts with guaranteed exposure.

If you represent Ricoh for example, having the Club back for a few years would be nice, but you signed up originally for a committed Premiership Club, very different deal.

 

[Como]

For example if there is the same number of people in attendance over the course of a year would Ricoh prefer them to be football supporters or business people who might actually buy their products?

Interesting question, I had assumed media exposure was a major factor, and that is what Ricoh were buying in the Premiership.

 

[Grendel]

Your argument is very strange. You're saying it is essential for us to get F&B revenues if we return but you then suggest they should be sold to us at a low price as they aren't worth much. You then dismiss other events that will most likely bring in more revenue than our matches as irrelevant. So which is it, is the F&B worth having or is it not?

A quick google tells me this is the second Insomnia event this year, both at weekends so the booking may well not have been made if we were still playing there. The events last for 3 days, and nights, and attract more people than our home games. I would not be at all surprised if those 2 events alone generate more revenue than all our home games over a season. Who is likely to spend more, somewhere who is there for a couple of hours for a football match or someone who is there all day?

The Ricoh is not just a football stadium, if it was we may not have all theses problems. Whilst industry events will most likely take place in the week anything open to the pubic is more likely to be held on a weekend. Should ACL continue growing that side of the business they could be financially better off than with us there. It might also be more attractive to some types of sponsors, its an unknown so you can't assert as fact that the value of sponsorship drops with the club not there. For example if there is the same number of people in attendance over the course of a year would Ricoh prefer them to be football supporters or business people who might actually buy their products?

Why have Ricoh not renewed their sponsorship deal?

 

[Noggin]

For the club its worth £1.85 million in player budgets over 3 years. To ACL and compass its worth zero unless we play there.

Fisher saying it doesn't make it true, if we were at the Ricoh without revenue from f&b we would not be constrained by ffp (scmp actually) considerations, the talk of ffp is and has always been a lie. Not to mention that acl offered to run the money through the books so that it would be available under scmp (though it wouldn't be needed anyway).

The only reason the club needs the food and beverage income is just like everyother club if you have say 200k more profit coming in you have 200k more money than you would do otherwise and that makes it easier to do well because as much as you like to make sarcy comments otherwise wages and transfer value does have a strong positive correlation with the quality of the player (this does not mean and it's sad I have to spell it out over and over again like I'm talking to a child, that all frees are shit)

 

[chiefdave]

Why have Ricoh not renewed their sponsorship deal?

I wasn't aware it had expired, what is it called now if it's not the Ricoh Arena?

 

[Como]

Why have Ricoh not renewed their sponsorship deal?

They were not prepared to pay what ACL want or decided to focus advertising monies elsewhere.

 

[Grendel]

Interesting question, I had assumed media exposure was a major factor, and that is what Ricoh were buying in the Premiership.

Despite Dave'd obsession Ricoh will not offer the same sponsorship deal with no football club. He has far far higher aspirations of the Ricoh as a venue for major non-related football events than anyone will seriously consider.

His pro ACL obsession is disturbing - has he ever made a football related post?

 

[italiahorse]

Why have Ricoh not renewed their sponsorship deal?

Its a year too early :facepalm:

 

[Grendel]

I wasn't aware it had expired, what is it called now if it's not the Ricoh Arena?

It expires next year and has not been renewed. Why if more buyers of its products are there for the taking?

 

[Como]

Fisher saying it doesn't make it true, if we were at the Ricoh without revenue from f&b we would not be constrained by ffp (scmp actually) considerations, the talk of ffp is and has always been a lie. Not to mention that acl offered to run the money through the books so that it would be available under scmp (though it wouldn't be needed anyway).

The only reason the club needs the food and beverage income is just like everyother club if you have say 200k more profit coming in you have 200k more money than you would do otherwise and that makes it easier to do well because as much as you like to make sarcy comments otherwise wages and transfer value does have a strong positive correlation with the quality of the player (this does not mean and it's sad I have to spell it out over and over again like I'm talking to a child, that all frees are shit)

That would be ten grand a game, very difficult to believe. On a 10,000 gate and 10% margin that would mean the average spend would be a tenner.

 

[italiahorse]

Despite Dave'd obsession Ricoh will not offer the same sponsorship deal with no football club. He has far far higher aspirations of the Ricoh as a venue for major non-related football events than anyone will seriously consider.

His pro ACL obsession is disturbing - has he ever made a football related post?

You have no way of knowing that but you state it again as fact.

 

[chiefdave]

It expires next year and has not been renewed. Why if more buyers of its products are there for the taking?

So basically you have no idea if Ricoh are intending to renew or not.

 

[Grendel]

So basically you have no idea if Ricoh are intending to renew or not.

They haven't renewed yet despite a misleading article in a local paper suggesting otherwise.

Do you know what the main motivation for sponsorship is?

 

[Como]

Despite Dave'd obsession Ricoh will not offer the same sponsorship deal with no football club. He has far far higher aspirations of the Ricoh as a venue for major non-related football events than anyone will seriously consider.

His pro ACL obsession is disturbing - has he ever made a football related post?

If I was Ricoh then a successful club is definitely a plus and I would pay more for sponsorship.

Unfortunately that is not something likely to be available. On the basis of public pronouncements having a League 1 team for a couple of seasons does not sound that attractive.

 

[chiefdave]

Do you know what the main motivation for sponsorship is?

Your main aim is to get a good ROI but there can be many paths to that. You may just want brand awareness, you may want to target a certain demographic who are likely to purchase your products. It could be numerous other things.

 

[ccfcway]

Grendal, who cares, its a short term loss that SISU are happy to cover, until we build the new stadium where they get access to all of the revenues.

We are now a year into a 3 or possibly 5 year project, so all will come good in the next 2-4 years.

Rejoice !

no response grendal ?

 

[Grendel]

If I was Ricoh then a successful club is definitely a plus and I would pay more for sponsorship.

Unfortunately that is not something likely to be available. On the basis of public pronouncements having a League 1 team for a couple of seasons does not sound that attractive.

Dave thinks it's better with no club so they can sell more of their products to people attending events their. Apparently Arsenal are closing down and a runway is being constructed on the pitch -- target audience you see.

 

[Noggin]

That would be ten grand a game, very difficult to believe. On a 10,000 gate and 10% margin that would mean the average spend would be a tenner.

Thanks but I think you misunderstand, I wasn't suggesting they were the numbers, That was a random example of why any football club would want the food and beverage revenue. The point of the post was to say that Grendel is wrong and Fisher is lieing when he says we need the revenue for ffp (scmp) calculations, we don't.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Can you name 1 other football in the league that doesn't have match day revenues?

Can you name me another one that sold their rights to match day revenues? The club doesn't have them because the club sold them. To complain about their absence thereafter is farcical to the point of being amusing