Les Reid Twitter (2 Viewers)

[stupot07]

Just putting aside the moral argument for a moment, can we consider how big a product Wasps are offering.

Currently two "franchise clubs", London Welsh and London Irish, at Oxford and Reading respectively, get what we would consider as appalling crowds for their home league fixtures 3,000 for Welsh, 6,000 odd for Irish. Other than the odd European game I can't see how much money or employment Wasps would bring to the wider economy. Rugby, much as I personally enjoy it, doesn't come close to football in terms of draw or prestige.

As an example, what's the last big European game of rugby anyone here can remember? Other than Leicester, Northampton or Bath, can anyone name a town that they'd associate strongly with Premiership rugby?

In my opinion bringing in Wasps isn't like to bring any significant benefits to the city. The kind of numbers of fans that we're talking about is hardly going to spark off any significant redevelopment, and the game at grassroots level doesn't rely on having a Premiership team on the doorstep.

Agreed. And I can't see them coming and building a hotel and some eateries.


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[duffer]

There is also Gloucester and don't forget Harlequins (across the road from Twickers). New boys on the block are Exeter also.

And the last big European game you remember? And you call yourself a fan!

Joking aside, my point is that this isn't a game that really earns prestige or footfall (at the league level) in the same way that football can. Even a mid-table championship club at the Ricoh would attract double or treble what Wasps here will, I'd venture. Expect crowds of 3,000 - 6,000 after any initial enthusiasm has died away I'd reckon.

 

[oldskyblue58]

Putting my accountants head on the real problem I have with this is how can Wasps finance it.

Turnover in 2013 6.1m and never more than 8.4m since 2002
2013 losses 3.3m 2012 2.9m 2011 2.0m 2010 3.1m...... it goes on they haven't made a profit in any year since and including 2002

2013 current liabilities exceeded current assets by 2.4m

2013 long term liabilities equalled 16.6m

2013 the balance sheet was 14m overdrawn

They are not in great financial state Where is the finance coming from? what makes Wasps a good investment? How can they finance such a deal but we cant or wont.? Is there major funds being put in propel Wasps to the top? What about the everyday working capital where does that come from? Does it all rely on the Ricoh maintaining or improving current figures

more I look the more contradictions I seem to find. On the one hand I can see the potentials on the other the above and its a franchise from London.

We need much more detail without spin.

 

[Grendel]

Just putting aside the moral argument for a moment, can we consider how big a product Wasps are offering.

Currently two "franchise clubs", London Welsh and London Irish, at Oxford and Reading respectively, get what we would consider as appalling crowds for their home league fixtures 3,000 for Welsh, 6,000 odd for Irish. Other than the odd European game I can't see how much money or employment Wasps would bring to the wider economy. Rugby, much as I personally enjoy it, doesn't come close to football in terms of draw or prestige.

As an example, what's the last big European game of rugby anyone here can remember? Other than Leicester, Northampton or Bath, can anyone name a town that they'd associate strongly with Premiership rugby?

In my opinion bringing in Wasps isn't like to bring any significant benefits to the city. The kind of numbers of fans that we're talking about is hardly going to spark off any significant redevelopment, and the game at grassroots level doesn't rely on having a Premiership team on the doorstep.

That's the other thing I do not get in the scenario.

I have no interest in rugby but the Chelsea's and Man Utd of rugby are Northampton and Leicester - right? Wasps seem in crowd and attractiveness a QPR. So what benefit is moving them into a catchment next to the two big teams.

Its idiotic and sure to fail. Crowds would be pathetic and how can they construct a hotel?

The council were deduced by Haskell and his delusional idea.

This has failure written all over it.

 

[oldskyblue58]

And the last big European game you remember? And you call yourself a fan!

Joking aside, my point is that this isn't a game that really earns prestige or footfall (at the league level) in the same way that football can. Even a mid-table championship club at the Ricoh would attract double or treble what Wasps here will, I'd venture. Expect crowds of 3,000 - 6,000 after any initial enthusiasm has died away I'd reckon.

not being funny duffer but when was the last time CCFC showed real ambition to be a mid table Championship club? Our own crowds are nothing to shout about and I suspect fall well short of any breakeven for either the club or ACL

 

[stupot07]

Putting my accountants head the real problem I have with this is how can Wasps finance it.

Turnover in 2013 6.1m and never more than 8.4m since 2002
2013 losses 3.3m 2012 2.9m 2011 2.0m 2010 3.1m...... it goes on they haven't made a profit in any year since and including 2002

2013 current liabilities exceeded current assets by 2.4m

2013 long term liabilities equalled 16.6m

2013 the balance sheet was 14m overdrawn

They are not in great financial state? Where is the finance coming from? what makes Wasps a good investment? How can they finance such a deal but we cant or wont.? Is there major funds being put in propel Wasps to the top? What about the everyday working capital where does that come from? Does it all rely on the Ricoh maintaining or improving current figures

more I look the more contradictions I seem to find. On the one hand I can see the potentials on the other the above and its a franchise from London.

We need much more detail without spin.

Exactly, their financial issues are well documented. It makes the suggestions that the consortium will also takeover us (and that be a good thing) sound ludicrous.


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[duffer]

not being funny duffer but when was the last time CCFC showed real ambition to be a mid table Championship club? Our own crowds are nothing to shout about and I suspect fall well short of any breakeven for either the club or ACL

Accepted OSB, they haven't shown any ambition. But even down to the nub of the support we're likely to get more in than Wasps, and the potential for CCFC is much bigger even if at the moment it's not being realised by the current owners.

Wasps are already in the top league - there's not much potential there for improvement and they are about to thoroughly piss off their core support.

 

[duffer]

Putting my accountants head on the real problem I have with this is how can Wasps finance it.

Turnover in 2013 6.1m and never more than 8.4m since 2002
2013 losses 3.3m 2012 2.9m 2011 2.0m 2010 3.1m...... it goes on they haven't made a profit in any year since and including 2002

2013 current liabilities exceeded current assets by 2.4m

2013 long term liabilities equalled 16.6m

2013 the balance sheet was 14m overdrawn

They are not in great financial state Where is the finance coming from? what makes Wasps a good investment? How can they finance such a deal but we cant or wont.? Is there major funds being put in propel Wasps to the top? What about the everyday working capital where does that come from? Does it all rely on the Ricoh maintaining or improving current figures

more I look the more contradictions I seem to find. On the one hand I can see the potentials on the other the above and its a franchise from London.

We need much more detail without spin.

You've got me beat there too, although BT have signed a big deal to televise Prem Rugby... is this where Wasps money is coming from?

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2012/sep/12/premiership-rugby-bt-deal-broadcast

It's certainly not coming from their fans!

 

[stupot07]

You've got me beat there too, although BT have signed a big deal to televise Prem Rugby... is this where Wasps money is coming from?

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2012/sep/12/premiership-rugby-bt-deal-broadcast

It's certainly not coming from their fans!

That's only £3.1m per team per annum. and that's if it's an equal split and the RFU aren't top slicing for lower league teams and grassroots like what happens in the PL. And agents will be looking at that pot and rubbing their hands with glee so you can bet that players wages will be increasing over the next 4 years.


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[duffer]

That's only £3.1m per team per annum. and that's if it's an equal split and the RFU aren't top slicing for lower league teams and grassroots like what happens in the PL. And agents will be looking at that pot and rubbing their hands with glee so you can bet that players wages will be increasing over the next 4 years.


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I think, but don't quote me, that there's a salary cap in Prem rugby. But I could be taking out of my backside (again). Either way, we've seen in football that TV money seems to have any number of ways of slipping through the clubs' hands and ending up in the wrong places. I doubt rugby is much better!

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I think, but don't quote me, that there's a salary cap in Prem rugby. But I could be taking out of my backside (again). Either way, we've seen in football that TV money seems to have any number of ways of slipping through the clubs' hands and ending up in the wrong places. I doubt rugby is much better!

As ever, you have to question the motives of any owner who takes over a team and looks to shift it away.

If you buy for the ego, or because you always wanted to own the team, the thought of moving to a bigger stadium in Coventry would never cross your mind.

Of course the bugger will prove me wrong now and move to Plymouth(!) but the two options for Crystal Palace were either a new ground back at... Crystal Palace, or the redevelopment of Selhurst Park. I doubt either are the most financially expedient options... but they are the appropriate sporting options.

 

[duffer]

That's the other thing I do not get in the scenario.

I have no interest in rugby but the Chelsea's and Man Utd of rugby are Northampton and Leicester - right? Wasps seem in crowd and attractiveness a QPR. So what benefit is moving them into a catchment next to the two big teams.

Its idiotic and sure to fail. Crowds would be pathetic and how can they construct a hotel?

The council were deduced by Haskell and his delusional idea.

This has failure written all over it.

I could well be wrong, or missing something, but I'd tend to agree that this doesn't look great financially. Maybe that's why SISU aren't too worried - if this venture fails, what happens next to ACL? With just 10% the council will have lost control...

 

[stupot07]

I think, but don't quote me, that there's a salary cap in Prem rugby. But I could be taking out of my backside (again). Either way, we've seen in football that TV money seems to have any number of ways of slipping through the clubs' hands and ending up in the wrong places. I doubt rugby is much better!

Just just check £5.5m + they can nominate 2 players to be outside that cap. You could get an IPL scenario where the top 2 players are demanding top Wonga.


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[Deleted member 5849]

I could well be wrong, or missing something, but I'd tend to agree that this doesn't look great financially. Maybe that's why SISU aren't too worried - if this venture fails, what happens next to ACL? With just 10% the council will have lost control...

There's one thing for sure... if Wasps can't raise the finance after all, the rhetoric about what a 'fair' price is comes down to SISU levels. Entirely coincidentally I was looking at this earlier, btw: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogers_Centre

Now there's a certain merit in hanging on until the bottom fo the business cycle eh. You can work out the latest purchase yourself but it's something like a price 4% of the build cost...

 

[samccov1987]

Just seen rosborough from coventry rugby interviewed on Sky and he didn't seem as opposed as you might expect. Was quite complimentary about wasps and their chairman Richardson so makes you wonder if he knows more about the situation or sees an opportunity for coventry to partnership with wasps.

 

[Limey]

Just thought I'd share this link:

http://www.skybluesblog.co.uk/want-get-mad/

If I lived in Cov I'd definitely be sending an email this evening.

 

[chiefdave]

Just seen rosborough from coventry rugby interviewed on Sky and he didn't seem as opposed as you might expect. Was quite complimentary about wasps and their chairman Richardson so makes you wonder if he knows more about the situation or sees an opportunity for coventry to partnership with wasps.

There was another chap on the radio just after the story broke from CRFC, wasn't Rosborough, but he didn't seem too against it either. Biggest concern seemed to be that if they moved their academy up here that it was linked up to CRFC rather than any other local team.

I've been surprised, to be honest, at the response from CRFC and Wasps. I know they have smaller fanbases but compare their forums to what it was like on her when SISU moved us to Sixfields. Even compare now, there's way more posts about it here than on their own forums. Past the Wasps petition there seems to be very little activity. Surely if CRFC were against it they would have released a statement or got word out somehow.

That's why I'm a bit unsure about us protesting. Seems like we're the ones arranging that kind of thing when really it should be them sorting us and us giving our full support to them.

 

[Grendel]

I could well be wrong, or missing something, but I'd tend to agree that this doesn't look great financially. Maybe that's why SISU aren't too worried - if this venture fails, what happens next to ACL? With just 10% the council will have lost control...

The sudden urgency to sell is another thing i am struggling to understand. The business is allegedly stable and profitable. So what is the motivation? Its a very odd.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Really not sure taking the word of a sports club's owners as the cue for protesting or not is the right approach...

 

[Grendel]

There was another chap on the radio just after the story broke from CRFC, wasn't Rosborough, but he didn't seem too against it either. Biggest concern seemed to be that if they moved their academy up here that it was linked up to CRFC rather than any other local team.

I've been surprised, to be honest, at the response from CRFC and Wasps. I know they have smaller fanbases but compare their forums to what it was like on her when SISU moved us to Sixfields. Even compare now, there's way more posts about it here than on their own forums. Past the Wasps petition there seems to be very little activity. Surely if CRFC were against it they would have released a statement or got word out somehow.

That's why I'm a bit unsure about us protesting. Seems like we're the ones arranging that kind of thing when really it should be them sorting us and us giving our full support to them.

Agreed - as long as you are happy with strap line - Coventry the home of franchise sport.

 

[samccov1987]

Yes I've been on the wasps boards and whilst more are against than for there also seems to be number who aren't from London and picked wasps based on england players rather than a geographical link to the club and who seem prepared to accept it if it means the club survives. Not sure if this is typical of rugby fans in the capital as rugby in the East Midlands and South west always appeared tribal.

 

[torchomatic]

Well, that's OK then. As long as the owners are OK with it then nothing else really matters.

Just seen rosborough from coventry rugby interviewed on Sky and he didn't seem as opposed as you might expect. Was quite complimentary about wasps and their chairman Richardson so makes you wonder if he knows more about the situation or sees an opportunity for coventry to partnership with wasps.

 

[SkyBlueScottie]

I don't get why they are paying 30 million for a 90% stake in ACL which gives them a circa 70% in IEC.

 

[samccov1987]

Well, that's OK then. As long as the owners are OK with it then nothing else really matters.

Dispels some of the argument about it being the death knell for cov rugby. Getting a bit annoyed with some of the outrage from our fans - our owners have stated they don't want to buy the ricoh, Wasps need a ground to survive and seem prepared to bid. The council have a obligation to consider the bid in the interests of all coventry citizens not just the 7500 ricoh attendes and other 20000 occasional visitors.

Personally don't know why sisu aren't interested but as they aren't don't blame the council for cashing out.

 

[torchomatic]

Doesn't dispel anything. Of course, those instigating the move will say it's great.

Similarly, I don't understand the outrage from some for moving to Sixfields now. As you, and quite a few others, seem to think moving a team 75 miles permanently is a good thing.

Dispels some of the argument about it being the death knell for cov rugby. Getting a bit annoyed with some of the outrage from our fans - our owners have stated they don't want to buy the ricoh, Wasps need a ground to survive and seem prepared to bid. The council have a obligation to consider the bid in the interests of all coventry citizens not just the 7500 ricoh attendes and other 20000 occasional visitors.

Personally don't know why sisu aren't interested but as they aren't don't blame the council for cashing out.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Dispels some of the argument about it being the death knell for cov rugby. Getting a bit annoyed with some of the outrage from our fans - our owners have stated they don't want to buy the ricoh, Wasps need a ground to survive and seem prepared to bid. The council have a obligation to consider the bid in the interests of all coventry citizens not just the 7500 ricoh attendes and other 20000 occasional visitors.

Personally don't know why sisu aren't interested but as they aren't don't blame the council for cashing out.

So you follow exactly whatever the owners of a sports club say...?

 

[covmark]

Dispels some of the argument about it being the death knell for cov rugby. Getting a bit annoyed with some of the outrage from our fans - our owners have stated they don't want to buy the ricoh, Wasps need a ground to survive and seem prepared to bid. The council have a obligation to consider the bid in the interests of all coventry citizens not just the 7500 ricoh attendes and other 20000 occasional visitors.

Personally don't know why sisu aren't interested but as they aren't don't blame the council for cashing out.

Do you not find it a tad hypocritical though. Attempting to sue Northampton Town for taking in CCFC. Then months later selling up to a franchise rugby team. It doesn't sit well at all. Having said all that, there must be more to this. They must realise they'll struggle to get a few thousand in the Ricoh. So how are they going to make this move pay?

 

[theferret]

Dispels some of the argument about it being the death knell for cov rugby. Getting a bit annoyed with some of the outrage from our fans - our owners have stated they don't want to buy the ricoh, Wasps need a ground to survive and seem prepared to bid. The council have a obligation to consider the bid in the interests of all coventry citizens not just the 7500 ricoh attendes and other 20000 occasional visitors.

Personally don't know why sisu aren't interested but as they aren't don't blame the council for cashing out.

'7500 Ricoh attendees'. We get a crowd that low for the first time in 2 generations and suddenly you are using it to make a lame point? This club means a great deal to a great many people. 250,000 welcomed the team home in 87. Nothing, NOTHING, comes close to bringing this city together than the football club can (and has) through 131 YEARS . How can you be so flippant? Your post is an absolute fucking disgrace. Shameful.

 

[skybluetony176]

So you follow exactly whatever the owners of a sports club say...?

There's always someone. Look at RFC.

 

[The Lurker]

Well, that's OK then. As long as the owners are OK with it then nothing else really matters.

Hypocrites keeps getting mentioned. I'd put you in that bracket. You were sticking up for sixfields and now you against a Rugby team moving to Cov. Double standards for the pro sisu lot

 

[Deleted member 5849]

There's always someone. Look at RFC.

And look how much credence his view gets!

 

[covmark]

Hypocrites keeps getting mentioned. I'd put you in that bracket. You were sticking up for sixfields and now you against a Rugby team moving to Cov. Double standards for the pro sisu lot

There is a difference between permanent and temporary, you know that, right?

 

[The Lurker]

There is a difference between permanent and temporary, you know that, right?

Most fans thought we'd never return to Cov. The plan of leaving the Ricoh was for 5 years. You seem to justify that.

 

[theferret]

Most fans thought we'd never return to Cov. The plan of Ricoh was 5 years. You seem to justify that.

Sorry but that's just rubbish.

 

[The Lurker]

Sorry but that's just rubbish.

Really? The talk was never return to Ricoh and a new ground out of Coventry boundaries. That looked a real possibility.