CCFC can still have the Higgs 50% share ??? (8 Viewers)

[Woodster]

Do SISU actually have the option? Do they actually have any control over CCFC Ltd? Presumably the liquidator will take one look at it and say there's no capital with which to purchase it.

 

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[sky blue john]

I don't think Higgs is for sale.

You know what I mean but chanting "buy the higgs share of Acl " doesn't really work.

 

[albatross]

I am not sure how the administrator could purchase The Shares on on behalf of anyone. He may be able to sell the company with the Option in place. What was the value of the Option on the books of CCFC ltd? If the administrator / liquidator missed £2.77M of asset / Value then it may be suggested that the company and assets of CCFC Ltd were not correctly valued..

 

[oldskyblue58]

There is another wrinkle here isn't there. The assets and rights to assets of CCFC ltd were sold to Otium for 1.5m (that could include the rights under the option perhaps), and the accounts for SBS&L showed the option as an asset in that company. Could SISU claim beneficial ownership (where have we heard that before) by one or other of the companies. Hate to say it but the prospect of more legals could be looming...........

 

[ashbyjan]

But surely, if they are free to sell to anybody, why not sell directly to SBS&L or Otium?

As I understand it the first off option to buy lies with CCFC Ltd if that option isn't taken up then the charity are free to keep or sell their shares. Wasps have apparently made a bid for those shares and from what Simon Gilbert reports they find that offer acceptable. As far as I know SBS&L nor Otium have made any bid for the shares but if they do then I believe they would be duty bound to consider it. I would therefore surmise that should the option via CCFC Ltd prove too complex to unravel there is no reason why they couldn't put in a bid and gazump Wasps. As I stated earlier under £3m for 50% of the Ricoh and keep the team in Coventry or £30m for a smaller probably out of City stadium - doesn't seem too difficult a choice to me.

 

[Monners]

To me it seems to be that there is a contractual obligation of the offer to Ltd for a set time perod (30 days). It has been mentioned taht as Ltd is under the control of the Liquidator, then it simly cannot happen as there is no funding available via them to make a pruchase. In other words, a formality before Wasps conlude the deal with Higgs - unless of course HIggs renege on this and offer their share to other parties than Wasps.

The only spin going on is from mischeouvous types on here

Edit: similar to Jan's post by the looks of it

 

[dongonzalos]

What the Trust have been told (by impeccable sources too) is that the Wasps deal with council is done and dusted, signed and sealed and Wasps now own 50% of ACL and CCC own noe of it but retain the freehold of the building. The two Council officers who were directors of ACL are no longer Directors of ACL. The remaining 50% belongs to the Charity and it is their to keep or to sell. The option to buy remains with CCFC Ltd but the often referred to formula no longer applies. The club can make an offer but if this is rejected by the charity they are then free to sell to whoever they like. It appears that the club has a chance to buy 50% of a stadium and I would have to assume 50% of all of its revenue for under £3m or spend 10 times that building a smaller stadium of its own. Seems like an opportunity we should be urging the club not to miss.

Will they see the light and give the charity a fair price or will they offer silly money. It's gets rejected and along comes wasps....

 

[oldskyblue58]

however from TF's comments this morning it seems they are still fixated on building a new stadium so why would they lock money in to something they say they will walk away from.

make your mind up time I think

 

[Samo]

There is another wrinkle here isn't there. The assets and rights to assets of CCFC ltd were sold to Otium for 1.5m (that could include the rights under the option perhaps), and the accounts for SBS&L showed the option as an asset in that company. Could SISU claim beneficial ownership (where have we heard that before) by one or other of the companies. Hate to say it but the prospect of more legals could be looming...........

Sorry if I'm being a little dense here OSB but... If the SB&L accounts showed the option as an asset, why would they need to claim beneficial ownership? They paid good money for the option didn't they?

 

[fernandopartridge]

Not being funny, but where exactly does it say that?

Everything I've read regarding this deal has either been vague or as today's revelation turned out wrong.

What's been said that I can recall is that Wasps have taken on the mortgage (less £1m, possibly) - have they done that through ACL, or via another mechanism? I'm not saying I'm right, but there's not much evidence I've seen to back up your opinion either.

Well as effectively the debt is the council's debt I think all the council want is it settled so they can repay prudential borrowing.

 

[mark82]

What the Trust have been told (by impeccable sources too) is that the Wasps deal with council is done and dusted, signed and sealed and Wasps now own 50% of ACL and CCC own noe of it but retain the freehold of the building. The two Council officers who were directors of ACL are no longer Directors of ACL. The remaining 50% belongs to the Charity and it is their to keep or to sell. The option to buy remains with CCFC Ltd but the often referred to formula no longer applies. The club can make an offer but if this is rejected by the charity they are then free to sell to whoever they like. It appears that the club has a chance to buy 50% of a stadium and I would have to assume 50% of all of its revenue for under £3m or spend 10 times that building a smaller stadium of its own. Seems like an opportunity we should be urging the club not to miss.

Jan, not read the whole thread, but this seems like something the trust should be pushing for. You have the contacts, we need to let our owners know this is what we expect. The club now need to do this. Enough games. Enough of costly new stadiums. Let's own the stadium that is already our home.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Osb's post is interesting. Has the option transferred to Otium?

 

[mark82]

Even if buying through the option is not feasible just match the offer for 50%. On the old rental agreement it's a couple of years rent, plus probably picking up half the loan. Got to beat building a new stadium.

 

[Sky Blue Dal]

It's spin I'm afraid

I intend to agree with you on this one.

 

[ashbyjan]

To me it seems to be that there is a contractual obligation of the offer to Ltd for a set time perod (30 days). It has been mentioned taht as Ltd is under the control of the Liquidator, then it simly cannot happen as there is no funding available via them to make a pruchase. In other words, a formality before Wasps conlude the deal with Higgs - unless of course HIggs renege on this and offer their share to other parties than Wasps.

The only spin going on is from mischeouvous types on here

Edit: similar to Jan's post by the looks of it

Not being mischievous - if the choice is CCFC owning half of the Ricoh and playing in Coventry or building a small ground outside Coventry then its not spin or being mischievous then I personally would go for the former. If they make an offer for the charities shares either via CCFC Ltd or the transferred right to Otium or directly from Otium/SBS&L then surely that is good for the team isn't it? If Simon is correct then the price has been set and maybe I am being simplistic but even assuming they would have to pick up half the loan via ACL and buy the charity's shares that's still cheaper and preferable than the option being mooted by Tim Fisher.

Like I said not spin or anything just, in my opinion, seems what's best for CCFC.

 

[Cranfield Sky Blue]

Forgive my simple view, but didn't Otium buy the assets of CCFC Ltd as part of the administration process? If so, would the option on the Higgs share be considered an asset and was therefore transferred to Otium?

HELP!!!

 

[KersleyDigs]

There is another wrinkle here isn't there. The assets and rights to assets of CCFC ltd were sold to Otium for 1.5m (that could include the rights under the option perhaps), and the accounts for SBS&L showed the option as an asset in that company. Could SISU claim beneficial ownership (where have we heard that before) by one or other of the companies. Hate to say it but the prospect of more legals could be looming...........

I'm sure if they were interested in the Higgs share, then they would argue this, as they paid £1.5m for CCFC Ltd

I fully expect them to continue to baffle the fans by announcing; "we are not interested in any purchase of the Higgs share in ACL"

SISU are reliably and consistently non-sensical

 

[Monners]

Not being mischievous - if the choice is CCFC owning half of the Ricoh and playing in Coventry or building a small ground outside Coventry then its not spin or being mischievous then I personally would go for the former. If they make an offer for the charities shares either via CCFC Ltd or the transferred right to Otium or directly from Otium/SBS&L then surely that is good for the team isn't it? If Simon is correct then the price has been set and maybe I am being simplistic but even assuming they would have to pick up half the loan via ACL and buy the charity's shares that's still cheaper and preferable than the option being mooted by Tim Fisher.

Like I said not spin or anything just, in my opinion, seems what's best for CCFC.

That bit wasn't directed at you Jan, but one or two others further up the thread - you and I were typing at the same time I think, hence the edit comment (your post is likely to be more acccuarte factually than mine also!). I couldn't agree more with what you and Mark82 have said. There is a slim glimmer of hope here perhaps. Are you talking with TF at all soon

 

[fernandopartridge]

Even if buying through the option is not feasible just match the offer for 50%. On the old rental agreement it's a couple of years rent, plus probably picking up half the loan. Got to beat building a new stadium.

There isn't a suggestion that Higgs would sell to Otium? It sounds like they HAVE to go through the motions.

 

[sky blue john]

Questions.
Why or what has stopped CCFC ltd being liquidated already ?
I vaguely remember a hold up in the process but can't remember the reason.

Even if its not possible to make an offer through this route for whatever Sisu excuse. Jan is correct nothing to stop an offer through whoever owns CCFC now.
Then pressure can be put on the Higgs to except.

 

[duffer]

Not being mischievous - if the choice is CCFC owning half of the Ricoh and playing in Coventry or building a small ground outside Coventry then its not spin or being mischievous then I personally would go for the former. If they make an offer for the charities shares either via CCFC Ltd or the transferred right to Otium or directly from Otium/SBS&L then surely that is good for the team isn't it? If Simon is correct then the price has been set and maybe I am being simplistic but even assuming they would have to pick up half the loan via ACL and buy the charity's shares that's still cheaper and preferable than the option being mooted by Tim Fisher.

Like I said not spin or anything just, in my opinion, seems what's best for CCFC.

I'm not sure Monners was calling you mischievous Jan, I think he was saying that he'd broadly posted something the same as you. I could be wrong though!

And I'd agree - it would seem to make far more sense to pick up half of ACL from Higgs were it possible, than go for a new "Stadium Wherever", especially if it's available for what Wasps have agreed and with the 250-year lease as a Brucie bonus.

This is though SISU, and ACL and Higgs. I'm just glad I bought a season ticket for Birmingham High Court whilst the early bird deal was still available.

 

[Nick]

So is it actually possible for them to buy the share?

Wasn't about 2 million offered before for it?

 

[italiahorse]

Surely they would need to buy half the loan as well?

 

[Nick]

Surely they would need to buy half the loan as well?

In terms of fairness I would say then yes they should.

In terms of the law, if the loan has been signed over fully to Wasps now doesn't that mean that the Higgs share doesn't actually have anything to do with the loan? How would that work?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

What's spin Grendel?

 

[ashbyjan]

Fernando - as I understand things the option for CCFC Ltd is real and factual. As some including OSB have pointed out there may be some legal dispute/conjecture/discussion as to whether this option has passed to Otium. Not withstanding that the option is real and there and the club, in my opinion. should act upon it. Given a free choice would the Higgs turn cartwheels of delight and willingly sell to SISU? After all the bad blood etc that has gone on between the two entities I very much doubt it but this isn't about who tied balloons to who's bumper or old court cases its about CCFC and what's best for OUR team. Personally I believe thats getting 50% of ACL, Tim and Joy may disagree and may have good financial reasons for wanting to build their own stadium but I would urge them to explore this possibility with all the vigour they can muster before its too late. I want CCFC to either exercise their option via CCFC Ltd / Otium, make a counter bid to the Wasps bid or explain to us the clubs supporters why its a better idea to rent for 4 years with little or no revenue whilst we build a smaller stadium for £20-30m?

Just to point out this is my PERSONAL opinion and not Trust policy before anyone starts accusing the Trust of being in SISU's/Councils/ACL's/Wasps/Preston Haskell's/Otium's/etc etc respective pocket

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

There is another wrinkle here isn't there. The assets and rights to assets of CCFC ltd were sold to Otium for 1.5m (that could include the rights under the option perhaps), and the accounts for SBS&L showed the option as an asset in that company. Could SISU claim beneficial ownership (where have we heard that before) by one or other of the companies. Hate to say it but the prospect of more legals could be looming...........

This was going through my mind at the point above when Grendel was talking about CCFC Ltd being a entity with no assets. Either it's transferred to Otium under the agreement OSB58 eludes to; or if it hasn't moved - or beneficial ownership can't be proven - then surely the option is an asset in itself?!?

 

[fernandopartridge]

Fernando - as I understand things the option for CCFC Ltd is real and factual. As some including OSB have pointed out there may be some legal dispute/conjecture/discussion as to whether this option has passed to Otium. Not withstanding that the option is real and there and the club, in my opinion. should act upon it. Given a free choice would the Higgs turn cartwheels of delight and willingly sell to SISU? After all the bad blood etc that has gone on between the two entities I very much doubt it but this isn't about who tied balloons to who's bumper or old court cases its about CCFC and what's best for OUR team. Personally I believe thats getting 50% of ACL, Tim and Joy may disagree and may have good financial reasons for wanting to build their own stadium but I would urge them to explore this possibility with all the vigour they can muster before its too late. I want CCFC to either exercise their option via CCFC Ltd / Otium, make a counter bid to the Wasps bid or explain to us the clubs supporters why its a better idea to rent for 4 years with little or no revenue whilst we build a smaller stadium for £20-30m?

Just to point out this is my PERSONAL opinion and not Trust policy before anyone starts accusing the Trust of being in SISU's/Councils/ACL's/Wasps/Preston Haskell's/Otium's/etc etc respective pocket

Fair enough Jan, not questioning your reasoning.

 

[duffer]

Surely they would need to buy half the loan as well?

If the loan has been continued into ACL, then wouldn't the 50% shareholding in effect give them that liability without further transfer of cash?

If it hasn't and as part of the sale of the Council share the loan has been split of separately to another part of Wasps, or even paid off completely, then presumably neither Higgs nor the new shareholder are on the hook for it. Apologies mate, I'm really not clear on this, can you tell?!

 

[letsallsingtogether]

That is the original deal that Higgs signed up to. Now at least one side has stood up to it's end of the bargain.
Funny how some still want to make out that the charity that Sisu tried to rip off and then took to court are charlatans. So lets see if they accept or not fuck me it has taken over 2 years and still not wound up.......

Yes that's the other thing that crossed mind.

Its a rather shameless tactic I think to claim the club could purchase when in reality they cannot.

 

[duffer]

In terms of fairness I would say then yes they should.

In terms of the law, if the loan has been signed over fully to Wasps now doesn't that mean that the Higgs share doesn't actually have anything to do with the loan? How would that work?

Fairness to who, mate? To Wasps? F*ck em! They don't give a sh*t about anyone other than themselves - they don't even care about their own fans.

To Higgs? I don't think this actually impacts them at all - but again at the point they decided to get into bed with a franchise they made their choice in my book.

Just business, nothing personal, would be the phrase that I'd use.

 

[ashbyjan]

Fair enough Jan, not questioning your reasoning.

Wasps have half the Ricoh - I'm not happy about it but thats now done and cannot be reversed so for me it comes down to do I want Wasps to have 100% of the Ricoh and CCFC to be playing in a small ground outside of Cov in a few years time or do I want CCFC to have 50% of the Ricoh and play in Cov? As ever for me it comes down to CCFC being the most important part of any decision - do I want the Higgs to get shafted? Of course not but they have seemingly set a price that satisfies their needs and to a non financial person like me it seems a good one for all concerned and one that CCFC should be trying to match for the good of the club and its supporters.

 

[Samo]

Wasps have half the Ricoh - I'm not happy about it but thats now done and cannot be reversed so for me it comes down to do I want Wasps to have 100% of the Ricoh and CCFC to be playing in a small ground outside of Cov in a few years time or do I want CCFC to have 50% of the Ricoh and play in Cov? As ever for me it comes down to CCFC being the most important part of any decision - do I want the Higgs to get shafted? Of course not but they have seemingly set a price that satisfies their needs and to a non financial person like me it seems a good one for all concerned and one that CCFC should be trying to match for the good of the club and its supporters.

And of course if we were to own 50% we may find that the other 50% becomes available at a knock down price in a year or two.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

And of course if we were to own 50% we may find that the other 50% becomes available at a knock down price in a year or two.

That's a fair point.

We'd all get behind a campaign to distress Wasps... surely?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Fairness to who, mate? To Wasps? F*ck em! They don't give a sh*t about anyone other than themselves - they don't even care about their own fans.

To Higgs? I don't think this actually impacts them at all - but again at the point they decided to get into bed with a franchise they made their choice in my book.

Just business, nothing personal, would be the phrase that I'd use.

Welcome to the dark side