torchomatic
Well-Known Member
Oh, don't tell me...has Lucas placed the community asset into the grubby mitts of a different filthy hedge fund? Nah, she wouldn't do that. Would she?
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Some basic ricoh questions (15 Viewers)
- Thread starter shy_tall_knight
- Start date
italiahorse
Well-Known Member
You have obviously not read the court document. Item 9
http://www.matrixlaw.co.uk/uploads/other/01_07_2014_01_48_11_01.07.14.pdf
£21M is the loan, but was also the one off payment that ACL made instead of paying an annual rent on the lease.
The unknown is whether the 10% 'super rent' on profits over £3.75M and 50% on £7.75M is still in the lease agreement.
All we know is that Wasps paid £1M to extend the existing lease to 250 years.
May make sense as £1M seems a pittance for a stadium over that length of time without some rental payment.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
As its a new lease agreement and is clearly made attractive to the leaseholder it's highly unlikely such a clause is in the lease and even if it is some good old management charges can keep profits below that figure.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
How's that piece of genius working out for ya?
Amazing you can look at that and not blame the people who soured a working relationship and took their ball because they thought they were irreplaceable. Wasps have shown SISU up for the incompetent amateurs they are. They did in a year or two what we couldn't in 7. You need to suck your sour grapes up and focus on the people who are ACTUALLY CHARGED WITH LEADING THIS CLUB.
Is there any ridiculous decision from Sisu you won't defend? Did your bin not get put back in the right place once or something?
Hasn't the ideology of the likes of you, Grendel and the rest fucked this club up enough? Some of us just want a football team not a weapon to fight your political wars.
Sick of the lot of you. As far as I'm concerned you're the worst of the lot. The fans are the only ones with the club at heart by definition and instead you see the club as a tool to follow ridiculous political beliefs.
Frankly I think the one thing we've seen over the last two years is that the last thing the club should do is what you and Grendel think they should.
Following your genius business advice is what got us here. Maybe it's time to stop.
italiahorse
Well-Known Member
But we don't know. So you can't make that assumption in your arguments.
Coventry rate payers need to know this is still there or the stadium really has been given away and heads should roll.
stupot07
Well-Known Member
They won't be making £3.75m profit will they? That will be piled back into funding wasps losses. Wasps won't be paying any 'super rent'. And anyway, is really is peanuts isn't it, if they make £4.75m they'll only paying £100k. I'm not sure why you're so hung up on this very minor point.
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DazzleTommyDazzle
Well-Known Member
Because they:
Over-estimated the strength of their position ("the only game in town"....)
Over-estimated the impact of the JR
Under-estimated the will of the council to fight them in court (I got the impression from ML that they expected a "deal on the court steps")
and over-riding everything,
Under-estimated the need to negotiate sensibly and present themselves as a partner that could be worked with
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
tbf when they came in, there was going to be no option to move on a deal anyway.
Cllr Taylor said:
Now at the time when SISU came in, ACL would have been far more secure about the terms of the deal with the club already in place, and there wasn't the political will from the council to sell their half either.
You're right, of course, when they first came in was the time they should have been moving heaven and earth to *make* a deal happen (if only they'd shown the same determination they have recently eh!) but then, as we know, football doesn't work that way. If you're given the chance of a Freddie Eastwood and the promise of goals to fire your team into the top flight, or a chunk for a deposit on a stadium management company... we know which one will win out(!) both as the popular option among the fans (maybe less now!) and also for an owner who wants a gamble for a return.
I still don't get why the regeneration stuff was in there! Split it up, let whoever wants to regenerate it, be it the sports team or Tiles R Us!
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DazzleTommyDazzle
Well-Known Member
I'd agree with all of that.
I was nervous about not moving ahead with the ACL 50% in the heady Ransom days, but at least at that time "the club" appeared (from what we could see and the little I heard) to be keeping good relations with ACL.
I'd always thought that the council would be difficult to deal with, but in my view that reinforced the need to keep relations as good as possible and if necessary play a long game.
Once "we" decided to go down the route of the rent strike, the "accounts being a bit of a mess" and the JR, we were - in my view - on a "death or glory" route. Sadly, the chances of glory appear to have evaporated.
torchomatic
Well-Known Member
It's the forum equivalent of him screaming "Oh my God! Look behind you!" You turn round, there's nothing there. You turn back and Italia's gone. Diversion.
I'm not sure why you're so hung up on this very minor point.
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torchomatic
Well-Known Member
italiahorse
Well-Known Member
They won't be making £3.75m profit will they? That will be piled back into funding wasps losses. Wasps won't be paying any 'super rent'. And anyway, is really is peanuts isn't it, if they make £4.75m they'll only paying £100k. I'm not sure why you're so hung up on this very minor point.
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The reason is that if their is no rent paid it is indeed a poor deal for the tax payer.
I'm only putting the published facts on the table to try and understand the situation.
Just winging on about Wasps with no facts and 'uneducated guesses' is not for me, but you guys carry on.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
stupot07
Well-Known Member
If it is the same as the current clauses, how much 'super rent' do you think wasps will be paying?
We'll carry on whinging, you can keep your fingers in your ears in denial.....
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italiahorse
Well-Known Member
Which part of the JR document I've quoted above is wrong Mr Fisher ?
Careful now - high blood pressure leads to all kind of terminal diseases.
I am not talking politics - and never have on this board. The original contract between ACL and the club was wearing the club down. Even more so now when FFP regulations has been implemented.
The rent conditions seems to have been set to make sure ACL could make a small profit. As said by someone else in this thread if the original lease (CCC/ACL) had been for 250 years then the club could have had better terms.
Various boards have from the very beginning tried to negotiate the terms but every time ACL have refused. It seems ACL have never prior to the YB bailout been in a position to lower the rent or offer better F/B deals because that would jeopardize ACL's own financial situation.
Then sisu could maybe have used the leverage they had when they came in, but it looks like Ranson/Hoffman/Elliot/Igwe had limited finances to play with and they prioritized cost control and promotion to PL over utilizing the option to buy Higgs shares.
Was that an error of judgement? Maybe, but back then the sentiment even among the fans was to spend the money on players and to get us promoted. There were not much talk about purchasing a stake in ACL then.
Buying the shares finally became a priority when Fisher replaced the totally incompetent Dulieu. But ACL did not have the value that justified paying Higgs some £7m-£8m as per the formula. That's why sisu wanted to buy the YB loan and discharge it all together. At a discount - their plan was to have YB to pay for the party, and if they had been successful it could be classed as legal bank robbery. The discount would benefit Higgs as they would receive twice the amount they will get from Wasps.
That plan didn't work out - maybe because CCC didn't stick to the script. Ask yourself what your response would have been if you were the YB bank manager in two different scenarios:
1: Sisu/ACL together telling that ccfc going bankrupt would lead to ACL going bankrupt and YB losing all their money, but sisu investors (ARVO) would agree to refinance/restructure the club and ACL if YB agreed to a substantial discount.
2: ACL/CCC telling that ACL would need financial restructuring and the council were ready to take over the loan. Could we have a discount please?
I don't think it was a bad plan but something clearly went wrong in August 2012. Exactly what we don't know, but as we know WS were hired to do some serious sisu-bashing I am cautious believing all the story's we've been told.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
Cllr Taylor set out four tests which potential buyers would have to pass before the arena was sold.
First, investors wanting to buy the Sky Blues and the arena would have to show their deal was agreed by both the football club and its bank, the Co-operative Bank.
Secondly, they'd have to promise to use the Ricoh Arena to regenerate the north of Coventry.
Thirdly, the new investor would have to bring extra management expertise and strength to running both the club and the venue.
Lastly, they'd have to show they'd enough money to do a deal which didn't short-change the joint owners of the Ricoh Arena.
The first term was met wasn't it
second term is pretty vague and open to interpretation surely? It doesn't say for example you must build hotels
third term well surely good financial people with access to specialist help etc should have been able to do that
Clearly they had access to significant funds
All these things were doable if the people concerned on both sides had the imagination and clear thinking to spot it let alone do it
I think you have to throw in the CCC reticence & lack of commerciality certainly but you also have to throw in SISU doing it on a shoestring and those in charge at the club not seeing the bigger picture and how that benefited the club. When the deal in 2008 was done they could have for instance played hard ball and bought in to ACL then demanding a longer lease etc. I suspect no one really thought about it then because they were buying a football team that was going back to the Premiership though. :facepalm:
There has been a lack of joined up thinking by both Club and Council from day one. All ifs buts maybes and if onlys though isn't it. Complete mess since 2008 if not well before that. Benefit of hind sight also helps I guess
First, investors wanting to buy the Sky Blues and the arena would have to show their deal was agreed by both the football club and its bank, the Co-operative Bank.
Secondly, they'd have to promise to use the Ricoh Arena to regenerate the north of Coventry.
Thirdly, the new investor would have to bring extra management expertise and strength to running both the club and the venue.
Lastly, they'd have to show they'd enough money to do a deal which didn't short-change the joint owners of the Ricoh Arena.
The first term was met wasn't it
second term is pretty vague and open to interpretation surely? It doesn't say for example you must build hotels
third term well surely good financial people with access to specialist help etc should have been able to do that
Clearly they had access to significant funds
All these things were doable if the people concerned on both sides had the imagination and clear thinking to spot it let alone do it
I think you have to throw in the CCC reticence & lack of commerciality certainly but you also have to throw in SISU doing it on a shoestring and those in charge at the club not seeing the bigger picture and how that benefited the club. When the deal in 2008 was done they could have for instance played hard ball and bought in to ACL then demanding a longer lease etc. I suspect no one really thought about it then because they were buying a football team that was going back to the Premiership though. :facepalm:
There has been a lack of joined up thinking by both Club and Council from day one. All ifs buts maybes and if onlys though isn't it. Complete mess since 2008 if not well before that. Benefit of hind sight also helps I guess
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italiahorse
Well-Known Member
If it is the same as the current clauses, how much 'super rent' do you think wasps will be paying?
We'll carry on whinging, you can keep your fingers in your ears in denial.....
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As you know in the original lease it was 10% on profits over £3.75M and rising for bigger profits.
I guess that ACL could limit those profits below that amount but that would mean increasing spending (costs) within ACL. In effect not creaming it off.
What do you hope to achieve by whinging about Wasps taking over the Ricoh ? It's done, we're not happy, we can't change anything, move on.
Not necessarily - they can increase depreciation, pay out management fees, pay higher interests on inter-company loans etc.
Two things Godiva
Believe when Fisher or Deliue through Fisher first asked the question Daniel Gidney quoted £24 M as the price
However if someone could find the CT article for clarity as the last time I mentioned this there was confusion as to whether It was for ACL or just income rights
Secondly Mr Alvey a forward thinking chap scuppered the possibility of getting YB to discount
£24M doesn't seem a bad deal considering where we are now and what we've through to get here
In a position far worse than back then
Believe when Fisher or Deliue through Fisher first asked the question Daniel Gidney quoted £24 M as the price
However if someone could find the CT article for clarity as the last time I mentioned this there was confusion as to whether It was for ACL or just income rights
Secondly Mr Alvey a forward thinking chap scuppered the possibility of getting YB to discount
£24M doesn't seem a bad deal considering where we are now and what we've through to get here
In a position far worse than back then
I think the £24m was to get out of - or buy into - the joint venture with Compass.
As it is now Wasps get 23% of that joint venture through their ownership of ACL.
stupot07
Well-Known Member
We know PWKH, ACL, Councillors, sisu, ccfc etc look at this and other sites. Us moaning about it at least shows them that we're not happy about the situation and we feel that we have been let down.
We could go down your route and look apathetic. You seemed to get over it quite quickly I remember you saying you would go to the first match to 'soak up the atmosphere' when the ink was barely dry in the deal.
D day was 7th Oct and then next day you post this..
http://www.skybluestalk.co.uk/threads/49885-Wasps-attendances/page3
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italiahorse
Well-Known Member
We know PWKH, ACL, Councillors, sisu, ccfc etc look at this and other sites. Us moaning about it at least shows them that we're not happy about the situation and we feel that we have been let down.
We could go down your route and look apathetic. You seemed to get over it quite quickly I remember you saying you would go to the first match to 'soak up the atmosphere' when the ink was barely dry in the deal.
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I'm sure they already know
I've realised it's best to concentrate on things I can influence rather than dwell on things I can't.
The deal is done, so we need to concentrate on getting Sisu to work on a favourable deal.
We need to tell them that the new stadium is not wanted and try and to get a good deal at the Ricoh.
We need them to stop the JR nonsense so they can negotiate sensibly with Wasps.
Looking at some of the posts they must believe that people on here are happy to now move to a new stadium.
I even feel some now have sympathy with Sisu.
They need to tell Wasps unless they get a deal CCFC will go bust and explain why.
Sisu, I'm told your listening, so do something right for a change.
James Smith
Well-Known Member
I have actually been converted by Grendel to the position that the charity had made an investment in ACL (as Sisu did in our club) and the value of investments can go up as well as down. If they lose money then that's tough luck but the same applies to Sisu and our club. The Higgs own half of ACL and can sell to whoever they like (now personally I'd hope that this was to the club but....) just as Sisu can (or not) with our club.
As for the council, well they're not my council (and two faced hypocrites to boot) so who cares - with apologies to the taxpyers who do car.e
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Actually they can't be sold to anyone can they?
James Smith
Well-Known Member
Sorry I was talking historically before Wasps entered the picture as buyers. The Higgs had to offer CCFC Ltd first dibs but assuming Ltd. (or Mr Appleton) didn't want it, then other than that they were free to sell to anyone they felt like*.
*The council could then have vetoed the sale but that's another kettle of worms.
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letsallsingtogether
Well-Known Member
How depressing is this
Ccfc paid 7 years rent + £570k CVA.
7x £1.3m + £570k = c£9.7m for matchday (c25 days) and no/little access to revenue.
Wasps will have paid £5.5m for 100% shares and £1m to extend the lease for 200 years. £6.5m for the lot.
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So why did sisu not put in an offer in at the beginning?
Joy told us she had no idea what the rent was, until Ken asked her for more money?
I find that hard to believe
torchomatic
Well-Known Member
As discussed lots of times; the original plan was to improve the team to get us to the promise land. We were then going to start thinking of the Ricoh.
stupot07
Well-Known Member
Ask Ray Ranson. It's an absolutely disgrace, it should have been the first thing they did.
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D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
tbf not entirely impossible. The buck stops with the owners as they select who to work with, but I suspect CCFC wasn't on the radar as anything more than an inconvenience for a good while, and I suspect she did indeed let Ranson/Onye run it to begin with.
That's what you do, have faith in people to do a good job. Shame her judgement on who to have faith in is not... fabulous!
The Gentleman
Well-Known Member
At the beginning, buy the Ricoh, increase revenue which in turn gives you more dough to improve the team. Sadly that would have meant that they couldn't try and get it all on the cheap because you're not telling me that they weren't thinking about getting the Ricoh on the cheap earlier than 2012, supposedly hard nosed business people so that would have been there first thought rather than anything positive to do with CCFC.
Ian1779
Well-Known Member
In all honesty - they were probably sold the idea of buy a 'big' underperforming club... chuck some money in and get promoted. Sell on for far more that they paid. That would have been the Ranson spiel.
Probably never really though about buying Ricoh as they would have sold up and gone relatively quickly. And lets be honest given some of the conditions of ownership set out apparently (having to regenerate area for example it probably didn't figure as a viable option in the short term)
M&B Stand
Well-Known Member
Why is Gidney so despised by BCFC fans? Allegedly something to do with dealings at their club in the 90's pre golds & Sullivan.
Anyone?
Grendel
Well-Known Member
What would you define as buying in the cheap now we know what 100% ownership is a shade under £6 million for well beyond the lifetime if the actual stadiums existence?
The Gentleman
Well-Known Member
You're probably right about them wanting to get out a lot quicker than what has actually happened but being the sort of people they are I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't look at it from a valuable real estate point of view and all that crap about Ranson being in charge and Joy not knowing is bollocks as far as I'm concerned. She has always pulled the strings at Sisu HQ and do people really think they would be shelling the money they did without serious questions being asked, if people think different then to me that is naive.