Question about the Ricoh/ACL (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter mark_ccfc
- Start date
They took half the loan with the first half and half the loan with the second half.
really it's not accurate to say wasps took on the loan.
They brought half of acl a company with a loan of 14mill, this loan remains in place, then they brought the other half of the same company and again the loan remains in place.
really it's not accurate to say wasps took on the loan.
They brought half of acl a company with a loan of 14mill, this loan remains in place, then they brought the other half of the same company and again the loan remains in place.
jimmyhillsfanclub
Well-Known Member
However I've read on several different occasions that the ultimate responsibility for this £14.4m DEBT lies with CCC & hence, tax-payers cash......
Is this actually true? And if so, how is this even legal/moral/acceptable.....surely this re-opens the "state-aid" question?
Is this actually true? And if so, how is this even legal/moral/acceptable.....surely this re-opens the "state-aid" question?
if acl can't pay the loan ccc would lose out but they would be able to pursue acl for the money, forcing the ricoh to be sold and getting what they are owed from it if necessary. I dont see there is significant risk to the councils money. the judge has already ruled the loan was ok, who the owners of acl are changes nothing.
jimmyhillsfanclub
Well-Known Member
Really? Even though when that ruling was made, CCC & AEHC were the owners of ACL.....allegedly protecting a community asset......surely that changes now the (extended) lease is 100% held by a strictly "for profit" hedge fund?
duffer
Well-Known Member
As I understand it, the loan remains with ACL, the only thing that's changed is that Wasps now own ACL, rather than CCC/AEHC.
Wasps haven't taken the loan on as such - in other words it doesn't stand against their holding company. The risk here is that if Wasps goes pop though, and as a result ACL folds, then the loan is not repaid and CCC lose out. Indeed, if ACL folds for any other reason (perhaps say the other tenant, CCFC, folding or leaving), I guess that the council lose out.
Fisher's roadmap (even doomed as it was by SISU's negotiating style and the complete lack of trust between all of the parties) was arguably a much better deal in that it talked about clearing down the mortgage as part of taking over ACL. This would have left the council without the risk of losing money via the bailout.
Funny how it all turns out, eh.
Wasps haven't taken the loan on as such - in other words it doesn't stand against their holding company. The risk here is that if Wasps goes pop though, and as a result ACL folds, then the loan is not repaid and CCC lose out. Indeed, if ACL folds for any other reason (perhaps say the other tenant, CCFC, folding or leaving), I guess that the council lose out.
Fisher's roadmap (even doomed as it was by SISU's negotiating style and the complete lack of trust between all of the parties) was arguably a much better deal in that it talked about clearing down the mortgage as part of taking over ACL. This would have left the council without the risk of losing money via the bailout.
Funny how it all turns out, eh.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
Contractual liability for the loan is and was always with ACL. It does not mean London Wasps Ltd owe the loan as such. Look at it this way if you buy BT shares do you owe any of the BT loans? - No
Unless Wasps have given guarantees in respect of the loan then if ACL were to go bust it would not mean Wasps have the liability to pay any defaulted amount. In the same way that the assets of ACL remain ACL's so do the liabilities.
When you buy shares in a company the only liability that you take on is the unpaid amount on the share issue. In this case the shares were fully paid up.
Part of the reason the value of ACL was what it was is because it reflected that the fact there was a loan there.
Unless Wasps have given guarantees in respect of the loan then if ACL were to go bust it would not mean Wasps have the liability to pay any defaulted amount. In the same way that the assets of ACL remain ACL's so do the liabilities.
When you buy shares in a company the only liability that you take on is the unpaid amount on the share issue. In this case the shares were fully paid up.
Part of the reason the value of ACL was what it was is because it reflected that the fact there was a loan there.
jimmyhillsfanclub
Well-Known Member
Yeah...Its fucking hilarious.....I'm in stitches......ironic bearing in mind the total stitch-up we've recently witnessed.
duffer
Well-Known Member
It's a fair point this, in that the lease would presumably revert to the Council if ACL fail. But who would they sell it to in that circumstance - presumably Wasps would have folded, and CCFC (certainly under SISU) aren't likely to want to pay full value for it, assuming that they haven't gone tits-up or moved on too...
I think it's far from certain that the Council would recover all of the bailout money here.
I think it's pretty safe, The Ricoh has just been sold for 5.77mill with the loan in place and there were at least 2 bidders at that value. For the council not to get there money back they would need there to be no one willing to buy the Ricoh for £1 with the loan in place (a loan that would be smaller at this fictional point in the future).
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
The Ricoh to be sold to? Would they recover the loan? Doubt it personally
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
If ACL went into administration the council would recover x amount in the £ for the loan. I would be very surprised if any bidder would pay its full amount through a takeover.
why? surely the loan is secured and there would only be reason to accept pence in the pound if the value of the ricoh was less than that remaining on the loan. The fact it's just in essence been valued at 5.77m more than the loan means it should be a pretty safe bet.
duffer
Well-Known Member
In the scenario I outlined, where Wasps have gone bust, and CCFC have moved on (or gone under, or can't or won't pay to take anything like this on), how could you guarantee someone being willing to take it over with a multi-million loan attached?
The current claim by the council is that ACL is just washing its face (i.e. barely breaking even). If you weren't running a sports team that was (or could be) based in the area would it really be a good purchase for say £10m - £14m?
I'm afraid that it simply isn't true, imho, to say that there's no risk to the council in still holding the mortgage.
Malaka
Well-Known Member
Just putting it out there. Having CCFC as tenants was a selling point for the stadium. Now lets say that the WASPS did buy CCFC where would the income generated from the stadium be spent? Surely that would diminish CCFC's capacity to make money and keep us poor for longer? (my head hurts)
Como
Well-Known Member
Having a Premiership team as a tenant would be a plus. League 1 not so.
ACL was valued at circa £20m. Less the loan which was being retained by the buyer that is £14m.
Seen no mention of any parent company guarantee. There may be one.
There is a risk of it coming back. But as has been said relatively small and they have cash in hand as a plus. Think of it as owner financing.
Anyway it was the only deal on offer.
ACL was valued at circa £20m. Less the loan which was being retained by the buyer that is £14m.
Seen no mention of any parent company guarantee. There may be one.
There is a risk of it coming back. But as has been said relatively small and they have cash in hand as a plus. Think of it as owner financing.
Anyway it was the only deal on offer.
There is risk, there is always risk, but there isn't significant risk imo.
First you need acl to go bust and wasps to go bust and ccfc to move out (which they won't be) or go bust (which we might) but then not be taken over by someone who wants the Ricoh (which we probably would be) and after all that you'd need nobody willing to take over the Ricoh for a pound with the loan attached.
It's not correct to describe it as a purchase of 10m-14m, it's a purchase of £1 for a company that has that liability and I think absolutely people would be willing to do that. If they fail they are not down 14m, acl just again goes into admin.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
This council claim "just washing its face"........ I wonder what that really means, wonder if some costs have been dumped on ACL that wont be in future. The 2014 accounts will perhaps explain better. What I do know is that the place is very busy and constantly looking for more staff.
There is a risk attached to every loan but equally usually plenty of security given too
Interestingly it would seem that of the main bodies involved only ACL and AEHC seem to running profitably recently.............. whereas CCC, Wasps, CCFC, the SISU investors (perhaps) all see to have very dirty faces
Lots of ifs and buts
There is a risk attached to every loan but equally usually plenty of security given too
Interestingly it would seem that of the main bodies involved only ACL and AEHC seem to running profitably recently.............. whereas CCC, Wasps, CCFC, the SISU investors (perhaps) all see to have very dirty faces
Lots of ifs and buts
Last edited:
torchomatic
Well-Known Member
I think it's pretty safe to say that spin doesn't only come from SISU. Not long ago we were told by Lucas that they didn't need the club, the future was bright. Bollocks, wasn't it?
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
always an element of truth in any spin torch ............. either something they want out there for some reason or something they want hidden behind the words...... all sides have been guilty of it. That's why we should always question why and not accept at face value...... match it to what we know to be true
do they need CCFC as it is currently set up or performing and the baggage it brings? .................. or is they would like but do not need under the new ACL owners?
do they need CCFC as it is currently set up or performing and the baggage it brings? .................. or is they would like but do not need under the new ACL owners?
Last edited:
duffer
Well-Known Member
Which would be almost bearable as long as they weren't puporting to do it for the best interest of the city, and without risk to the existing clubs therein.
And also if they hadn't cast the obvious lie that they wanted to 'build trust' with the club whilst simultaneously selling to Wasps. I accept indeed that we should look critically at what all sides say, and check the assumptions, claims and numbers wherever possible. It's a pity that more people don't do it, OSB.
No the shares in ACL have been sold for c£6m for which WASPS get a long lease and a £13m debt
If ACL goes bust the property will revert to CCC with the loan money lost. In effect the £13m instead of being a sum recouped against the cost of building the stadium is added back
duffer
Well-Known Member
OK, see what you're saying. Let's just run this scenario one more time.
Wasps go bust - ACL goes into Admin. The lease probably reverts to the council at this point, although it may suit them to allow it to remain with ACL perhaps, depending on whether there's a deal to be done with someone else perhaps.
Effectively though the council becomes a creditor - what makes you think anyone would buy ACL including the full liability at this point? It seems unlikely there will be a long line of sports clubs bidding.
Wasps can't buy it, we're saying they've folded. CCFC may have moved out or gone bust, or may be reluctant to take on the full liability, or most likely would delight in seeing the council burn regardless (if SISU are still in charge). Who else would take on ACL with the full liability? The point of admin, as we've seen, is to enable the reduction of debts and liabilities.
There's a genuine risk here, to my mind. The lower risk play for CCFC, as I've said, was SISU's where the debt to the council was at least discharged at the point that ACL was sold. That obviously failed, not least because of SISU, but it doesn't mean that the deal the council have done now is any better.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
With a bit of luck this is what will happen and when it does hopefully we are still there and pick up the lease for next to nothing.
Bennets Afro
Well-Known Member
I was told on Sat that the loan value to debt needs two sporting entities playing at the Ricoh else the loan will default. The initial loan made by the council was paid off by wasps and a new one reissued
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
So basically ccc would do everything they can do to stop us building a new stadium to serve their own interests?
Bennets Afro
Well-Known Member
Maybe if it is true. Looks like wasps need us at the Ricoh
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
They currently have five don't they?
Themselves, us, CCFC ladies, Fester U21's and WBA U21's.
Are you saying we're surplus to requirements?
stupot07
Well-Known Member
I don't believe tnst
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
I struggle to accept that tbh. It makes no logical sense to pick up the entire shebang on the hope that the football club stays beyond its short term deal.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
If that is the case what are the chances of SISU capitalising on this and signing us up to a long term workable, more manageable than dealing with all the added debt of building lego land, rent deal?
Looking at their track record for success I'd say slim.
Bennets Afro
Well-Known Member
I never said it was true. Just what i was told.
We will never know unless the details of the loan are revealed, which i would also say are slim
We will never know unless the details of the loan are revealed, which i would also say are slim
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
It's a central government loan issued through a local authority. As it's not a matter of national security surely this info will be available with an FOI request?
Perhaps this is something Simon Gilbert could enquire about?
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Commercial confidentiality - the term that allows a bunch of ills to be hidden.
Doesn;t need Simon Gilbert to do it either, do it yourself
but remember to appeal if they don't tell you...!