Delusion? (38 Viewers)

[skybluetony176]

Not really, SISU managed to return their club to its home area, Wasps didn't. Therefore Wasps are worse negotiators.

SISU on a very short only works in league one apparently rental deal whereas Wasps have managed to secure a longer 250 year lease at a cheaper price than the people who should have been in the driving seat could ever have dreamed of.

Sorry NW I think you couldn't be more wrong.

 

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[martcov]

Because of the massive financial risks.

1) wasps losing £3m per annum, massive risk and uncertainty over whether they can attract and sustain a new fan base.

2) ACL currently doesn't make enough profit to cover wasps losses, and in all probably won't for a couple of years

3) the financial risk of football clubs, football clubs lose money, if they took us over expectations would be high, we'd expect championship football at least. In the championship we'd be losing £6-8m per annum to just be a lower midtable side

4) if they bought the club then ACL's small profits would be further diluted as they would be going into both the rugby and football operations, I imagine the owner would be having to foot a bill of £6-8m per annum across the 2 clubs.

It's far too much risk, wasps have been clear that derek richardson's money was about to run out, they were about to be insolvent, they have had to canvass for investment to be able to purchase the Ricoh. There is no more money.


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I don't think anything will Happen yet. But there is a logic in both clubs belonging to the same group. Wasps are losing money now, but the idea is to make money at the Ricoh. No-one can say whether it will work, but you cannot tell us that it won't - because we have no figures to go by. I would guess that Wasps will do ok though - based on how they have got this far in a short time and their PR.

 

[AndreasB]

SISU on a very short only works in league one apparently rental deal whereas Wasps have managed to secure a longer 250 year lease at a cheaper price than the people who should have been in the driving seat could ever have dreamed of.

Sorry NW I think you couldn't be more wrong.

Yep, easy when a two faced council and useless charity roll over for you isn't it?


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[stupot07]

I think you would need to be the owner of wasps to make that statement

Eastwood said owner
Derek Richardson's millions would have only lasted four more years renting in Wycombe.He added: "Derek's already spent Pounds 10million, another Pounds 4million a year, another four years, Pounds 20million. At that point you're dependent on whether someone else will step in."


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[martcov]

I don't think anything will Happen yet. But there is a logic in both clubs belonging to the same group. Wasps are losing money now, but the idea is to make money at the Ricoh. No-one can say whether it will work, but you cannot tell us that it won't - because we have no figures to go by. I would guess that Wasps will do ok though - based on how they have got this far in a short time and their PR.

Plus there are economies of scale if everything belongs to the same group. One marketing company, one firm providing staff e.g. Stewards. CCFC and Wasps just concentrate on the sporting side and an administrative firm takes care of running the completely facility.

 

[oldfiver]

Because of the massive financial risks.

1) wasps losing £3m per annum, massive risk and uncertainty over whether they can attract and sustain a new fan base.

2) ACL currently doesn't make enough profit to cover wasps losses, and in all probably won't for a couple of years

3) the financial risk of football clubs, football clubs lose money, if they took us over expectations would be high, we'd expect championship football at least. In the championship we'd be losing £6-8m per annum to just be a lower midtable side

4) if they bought the club then ACL's small profits would be further diluted as they would be going into both the rugby and football operations, I imagine the owner would be having to foot a bill of £6-8m per annum across the 2 clubs.

It's far too much risk, wasps have been clear that derek richardson's money was about to run out, they were about to be insolvent, they have had to canvass for investment to be able to purchase the Ricoh. There is no more money.

All the things a landlord looks for in a tenant or lends money to!


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[stupot07]

Plus there are economies of scale if everything belongs to the same group. One marketing company, one firm providing staff e.g. Stewards. CCFC and Wasps just concentrate on the sporting side and an administrative firm takes care of running the completely facility.

The risks out weight the 'economies of scale' (I believe they are the same stewards anyway). Say we get to the championship invest and make losses, we then get relegated wiping £5m income....do they sell half of wasps squad to help fund losses? For me (and I'm OSB wrote this yesterday) there are too many risks of them being co-dependent on each other.


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[Deleted member 5849]

SISU on a very short only works in league one apparently rental deal whereas Wasps have managed to secure a longer 250 year lease at a cheaper price than the people who should have been in the driving seat could ever have dreamed of.

Sorry NW I think you couldn't be more wrong.

I missed the time when Wasps successfully negotiated a return to their home area then?

 

[italiahorse]

SISU want shot of the club but they want to minimise the loss. So having a ground on your balance sheet makes up in part for you also selling a crap League 1 team. It drives up the club's valuation and makes bidders take a bit more notice.

No businessman except someone with the wealth of the Thais at Leicester or the Sheikh at Man City uses football as anything other than a profit making exercise. Maybe you could 'get over it' too.

Having a ground on your balance sheet is balanced out by the debt of actually building it.
You need to do your sums to help you get over it.

 

[italiahorse]

I would have seen the club being sold pretty soon after. Having the Ricoh on the balance sheet makes the club as a whole a more attractive package than without it. All part of the exit strategy.

Theres 2 sides to a balance sheet. The Assets (Stadium) and the Debts (Cost of building it), effective voids your argument.

 

[skybluetony176]

Yep, easy when a two faced council and useless charity roll over for you isn't it?


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Now you're getting it. SISU were too useless to get them to do that very thing depite years of trying and throwing shed loads of cash at it.

 

[Grendel]

Theres 2 sides to a balance sheet. The Assets (Stadium) and the Debts (Cost of building it), effective voids your argument.

Oh dear

 

[italiahorse]

Which would be marvellous except that a) SISU will want a chunk of that £50m back and b) Derek Richardson has a sneaky tendency to relocate clubs at a whim.

The club is worth maybe £5M and Sisu cannot now leverage the Ricoh to get their lost £50M back.
We just need to wait now for what they do in their exit strategy. Expect the worst.

 

[italiahorse]

Not really, SISU managed to return their club to its home area, Wasps didn't. Therefore Wasps are worse negotiators.

Sis bought us back because they needed to be back here when Wasps arrived.
They have no plan B so thankfully they did before Wasps carried on without us.

 

[skybluetony176]

I missed the time when Wasps successfully negotiated a return to their home area then?

Here's an idea then. Why dont SISU take their superiour negotiating skills and go and negotiate a 250year lease on a London stadium and then do a stadium swap with Wasps?

 

[italiahorse]

Yep, easy when a two faced council and useless charity roll over for you isn't it?


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Yes they should have rolled over and let Sisu have it at the price they valued it. I.e. Nothing. Ups sorry, £2M to Higgs because they were a charity.
Wake up and smell the coffee darling.
You have joined the ranks of Grendel and RFC as the forums village idiots.

 

[AndreasB]

Yes they should have rolled over and let Sisu have it at the price they valued it. I.e. Nothing. Ups sorry, £2M to Higgs because they were a charity.
Wake up and smell the coffee darling.
You have joined the ranks of Grendel and RFC as the forums village idiots.

Did all this happen whilst you had flounced off and stopped supporting the club?


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[italiahorse]

Oh dear

So perhaps you could put me right on Assets and Liabilities?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Here's an idea then. Why dont SISU take their superiour negotiating skills and go and negotiate a 250year lease on a London stadium and then do a stadium swap with Wasps?

Now there is indeed a thought.

We can all say what great negotiators they are then, and attach our colours to their masts as potential saviours.

Maybe Belfast if not London... that'd be good, and successful.

 

[italiahorse]

Did all this happen whilst you had flounced off and stopped supporting the club?


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Always been there supporting.
Proud of not supporting at Northampton though as are the majority of fans.

 

[skybluetony176]

Now there is indeed a thought.

We can all say what great negotiators they are then, and attach our colours to their masts as potential saviours.

Maybe Belfast if not London... that'd be good, and successful.

Belfast would be too political. The black and yellow would be too close to black and tans for some of the local residents.

 

[martcov]

Can someone explain how SISU get 365 days revenue on the P.i.t.S. Stadium. ( their Plan apparently ). The picture Showed a stadium and they want to build a training area. They will play Football 23 times a year. So, where does 365 days come into it? If it doesn't, how will they finance it? A retail park in the sticks? Unlikely. I still think that within the 4 year period, SISU will have to a permanent deal with Wasps- a sale or merger may be their only hope by then.

 

[DaleM]

Can someone explain how SISU get 365 days revenue on the P.i.t.S. Stadium. ( their Plan apparently ). The picture Showed a stadium and they want to build a training area. They will play Football 23 times a year. So, where does 365 days come into it? If it doesn't, how will they finance it? A retail park in the sticks? Unlikely. I still think that within the 4 year period, SISU will have to a permanent deal with Wasps- a sale or merger may be their only hope by then.

They could always say fuck it next month and pull the debts that are payable in .

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Theres 2 sides to a balance sheet. The Assets (Stadium) and the Debts (Cost of building it), effective voids your argument.

The ground was already built, muppet.

 

[italiahorse]

The ground was already built, muppet.

If your on about the Ricoh its on CCC balance sheets as it belongs to them.

 

[Grendel]

If your on about the Ricoh its on CCC balance sheets as it belongs to them.

The cost of building it isn't on the balance sheet unless the debt is outstanding you clown.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

If your on about the Ricoh its on CCC balance sheets as it belongs to them.

A 100% stake in ACL does not mean that the cost of the Ricoh is charged to your tab.

 

[italiahorse]

The cost of building it isn't on the balance sheet unless the debt is outstanding you clown.

The Ricoh is a Fixed asset and its on the CCC balance sheet.

 

[italiahorse]

A 100% stake in ACL does not mean that the cost of the Ricoh is charged to your tab.

You've lost me

 

[Astute]

Because of the massive financial risks.

1) wasps losing £3m per annum, massive risk and uncertainty over whether they can attract and sustain a new fan base.

2) ACL currently doesn't make enough profit to cover wasps losses, and in all probably won't for a couple of years

3) the financial risk of football clubs, football clubs lose money, if they took us over expectations would be high, we'd expect championship football at least. In the championship we'd be losing £6-8m per annum to just be a lower midtable side

4) if they bought the club then ACL's small profits would be further diluted as they would be going into both the rugby and football operations, I imagine the owner would be having to foot a bill of £6-8m per annum across the 2 clubs.

It's far too much risk, wasps have been clear that derek richardson's money was about to run out, they were about to be insolvent, they have had to canvass for investment to be able to purchase the Ricoh. There is no more money.

I have to agree. We are now used to having owners that make decisions that don't make any sense at all.

But it would make sense if it could happen. To me this means not until SISU give up. No large amount to pay for purchasing CCFC. No taking on of large debts owed to SISU.

1, Wasps losing 3m a year? They will be looking at different ways of bringing down these losses. Owning the local football club to play in the same stadium would make sense. No rent needed. Local people brought into what you are doing.

2, ACL profit not enough to carry both clubs? What is ACL going to be soon? It is not needed. Wasps have 100% so it is just a part of Wasps. It is just extra income for them.

3, Financial risk of football clubs? Just like financial risk of rugger clubs. But the risk of a local football club would be less than a rugger club moved 100 miles from it's base. Expectations would be high? Not from the majority of us. We are a division 3 club. All we want is a team that will have a chance of winning games. If they gave us a team that would start winning games many would come back. The income would be much more. IIRC it was all about the high rent and nothing else that was supposed to have put us where we are now. No rent payable to someone outside the clubs ownership would give enough money whilst still being profitable for us to have a great chance of being the best club in Division 3. It wouldn't be that hard. Just need the right manager first though.

4, It isn't about the profitability of ACL. This profit is just a small top up on income. Rent payable stays with the owners. This is just as important. Losses of £6-8m when we get promoted to the Championship? Only if run badly. They say it is worth about 5m being in the Championship. Could we get income per game of 200k upwards per game again? 4.5m to 5m a season. So minimum income of 10m before extra sponsorship. And again no rent to pay to elsewhere.

Was his money about to run out or was it what he was willing to lose? Was he going to leave himself destitute for having a few years as Wasps boss?

I can see it happening, but not until SISU finally throw the towel in. By this time we will see if Wasps have been successful. If they are it would be much less of a risk taking our club on than moving a rugger club away from it's fan base.

 

[skybluetony176]

Personaly I'm coming to the conclusion that SISU are here until the end of the season at the very least. I think they'll want to hang around to gauge an idea of how it's working out for Wasps. If they struggle for numbers and turnover perhaps they'll get a sniff of another angle to distress control of The Ricoh. I cant see what else they've got to keep them here.

 

[italiahorse]

Personaly I'm coming to the conclusion that SISU are here until the end of the season at the very least. I think they'll want to hang around to gauge an idea of how it's working out for Wasps. If they struggle for numbers and turnover perhaps they'll get a sniff of another angle to distress control of The Ricoh. I cant see what else they've got to keep them here.

Pride.
They have lost but won't give in.

 

[Citysince47]

Sis bought us back because they needed to be back here when Wasps arrived.
They have no plan B so thankfully they did before Wasps carried on without us.

My understanding is that ACL approached the mugs (Sisu) to enable a start in negotiations simply because the WASPs management wanted CCFC back so they could increase their income. I really am getting totally depressed about this whole sorry saga Yes SiSU have been an unmitigated disaster, I have no truck with them whatsoever, but to believe that a Rugby franchise will bale us out is seriously delusional. Just look at the difference between the 2 sports. Donkeys at CCFC being paid in excess of £3k pa transfer fees in football as a whole obscene whilst in Rugby the highest ever transfer fee has been just in excess of £500K for Sam Tomkins when he moved from RL to an Aussie RU team. So don't ever believe that having people who are used to dealing in the sensible world will start pandering to football supporters basic chant of "Splash the Cash" It ain't gonna happen. Oh and by the way, as stated I have no truck with SISU but to keep on banging on "SISU OUT" without beginning to try and understand that they have nothing to sell so who would want to buy nothing?

 

[italiahorse]

My understanding is that ACL approached the mugs (Sisu) to enable a start in negotiations simply because the WASPs management wanted CCFC back so they could increase their income. I really am getting totally depressed about this whole sorry saga Yes SiSU have been an unmitigated disaster, I have no truck with them whatsoever, but to believe that a Rugby franchise will bale us out is seriously delusional. Just look at the difference between the 2 sports. Donkeys at CCFC being paid in excess of £3k pa transfer fees in football as a whole obscene whilst in Rugby the highest ever transfer fee has been just in excess of £500K for Sam Tomkins when he moved from RL to an Aussie RU team. So don't ever believe that having people who are used to dealing in the sensible world will start pandering to football supporters basic chant of "Splash the Cash" It ain't gonna happen. Oh and by the way, as stated I have no truck with SISU but to keep on banging on "SISU OUT" without beginning to try and understand that they have nothing to sell so who would want to buy nothing?

Nothing to sell ?
Just give us back our Coventry City.
If they just walked away someone would pick it up and make a go of it.

But they can't because they believe they can still get back their £50M they squandered over 7 years.
Wasps moving in means they won't get the Ricoh by stressing ACL/CCC

So the question is, will they walk away, will they liquidate or will they hang on for several more years stressing ACL/Wasps in a hope of getting the Ricoh again.
If they don't walk away then Coventry City FC will continue to be collateral damage in there big business venture for many years to come.

 

[albatross]

I do think that we are headed for some darker days before things improve.

I would not be surprised to see SISU hang around for a while to see if there is any interest. However I do think that any prospective owners will adopt SISU's own hardball tactics that will see at least one more administration before the club is sold on as part of that process.

Its the only way that the club will be free of their debt.