Million dollar question (17 Viewers)

[Godiva]

We were told when sisu came in it was a blank canvas, no debt. Okay i'll accept the 15 mill they put up to pay some creditors and if they have put £6mill a year into the business that equals the 45mill constantly referred to, but there has been income. Gate receipts, transfer income, TV money my conservatve estimate for that is about £40mill. So if from a blank canvas we now owe 45million added to the income described comes to £80+ million. So over a 5 year period thats approximately 16 million a year to run this football club. After giving ACL their million rent and after wages, insurances, tax what else is there that adds up to 16million+ a year ?

Although slightly out of date, look here: http://www.skybluestalk.co.uk/threads/11316-FAQ-2-Money-Talks

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[stupot07]

Way back when, when McGinnity was Chairman, the late Sir Derek Higgs proposed a new rent structure. He was director of CCFC and ACL. His rent proposal was to have a base rent set for each League with increases linked to attendance. McGinnity and Hover, then Chief Executive of CCFC, rejected this outright as although there were reductions for Championship, League One etc, there would have been an increase in the base in the Premiership.
Robinson made some half-hearted attempts to open a discussion on rent but he too would not accept anything like the Higgs proposal. The important thing for ACL was to set up a structure that was sustainable, Robinson just wanted to set part of the rent aside until they could pay it one sunny day in the future.The advantage of the Higgs proposal was that there would have been a direct link to the Club's income.

Someone asked how the rental was arrived at: in the final years at HR the lease plus costs was c£900,000. The cost of lease and licence at the Rioch followed that model. It was signed off by Robinson and Brannigan for the Club and Fletcher and McGuigan on behalf of ACL. It had been agreed by the Boards of both ACL and CCFC.

As a board member of ACL I am not aware of any rent discussions with Fisher et al before the rent stopped being paid.

When the Charity bought the shares in ACL everyone expected CCFC to buy its way straight back into ACL. The Charity actually appointed as Directors of ACL the Chairman of CCFC and Sir Derek who was both shareholder and Director of CCFC.
It has been said that Sisu should have acted faster, when they bought CCFC, to purchase the shares. Perhaps it would have been better for CCFC to have made that purchase instead of following Fletcher's fantasies under Robinson. Everyone will have a view as do I and probably there is a bit right in all of them and a bit wrong as well. It is an odd person who believes that they are always right.

On one of the threads it was suggested that we, the directors of ACL, gain personally, or could gain, from the success of ACL's business or negotiations. Neither those appointed by the City Council or by the Charity are paid anything at all. This is stated clearly in the accounts, the most recent of which were lodged at Companies House on either Wednesday or Thursday of this week.

ACL has recently answered a list of questions posed by the Sky Blues Trust. They have asked, or are trying to ask, a similar set of questions of Fisher and CCFC. We have agreed that the Q&A can be published alongside those of Fisher's. I hope that he answers the questions because then people will be able to set one alongside the other and, I hope, be able to begin to see the wood for the trees.

Rent at HR from PWKH.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

 

[chiefdave]

So at HR we paid, according to PWKH, 900K a year which gave us complete control of the ground and all revenues. Despite that income we were in a mess financially. The way out of it was to pay £1.2m a year and not get complete control of the ground or all the revenues. Doesn't take a genius to see why that didn't work out.

I wonder how much the loan payments were for ACL on the YB loan. Would it surprise anyone if the football club was, in essence, the ones paying for everything but not getting the benefit.

 

[Nick]

So at HR we paid, according to PWKH, 900K a year which gave us complete control of the ground and all revenues. Despite that income we were in a mess financially. The way out of it was to pay £1.2m a year and not get complete control of the ground or all the revenues. Doesn't take a genius to see why that didn't work out.

I wonder how much the loan payments were for ACL on the YB loan. Would it surprise anyone if the football club was, in essence, the ones paying for everything but not getting the benefit.

Is that What people refer to as saving the club?

 

[letsallsingtogether]

Is that What people refer to as saving the club?

No your right CCC / Higgs should have left the club to build it themselves.

 

[Nick]

No your right

See, you are getting the jist!

 

[Rusty Trombone]

Is that What people refer to as saving the club?

The club could sell their old ground, and then be given 50% of a brand new one, which according to OSB cost the club £300k. Those things could have saved the club.

 

[chiefdave]

No your right CCC / Higgs should have left the club to build it themselves.

Would be interesting, not to mention a bit worrying, to forge ahead without the council and see what happened. I think the owners at the time were reluctant to give up power and step away as much of the debt was to them and walking away would undoubtedly have meant writing some, if not all, of that money off.

If the council hadn't stepped in would a sale to an owner with the money to finish the stadium project have happened? We'll never know of course but I would say it would be a lot easier to find a 'saviour' then than it is now with the state we are currently in.

 

[chiefdave]

The club could sell their old ground, and then be given 50% of a brand new one, which according to OSB cost the club £300k. Those things could have saved the club.

In hindsight the best way to 'save' the club would have been to rent them the whole Ricoh complex on an annual basis at an affordable rate.

 

[letsallsingtogether]

In hindsight the best way to 'save' the club would have been to rent them the whole Ricoh complex on an annual basis at an affordable rate.

Correct but like our present owners we have no one who can negotiate without ether distressing the second party or seeing what is in it for themselves.


Too many secrets then and too many secrets now they will never learn!!
Charlatans the lot of them, then again this is football what else can you expect just look at the football organisations all over the world,!!!

 

[letsallsingtogether]

See, you are getting the jist!

:claping hands:

 

[Ian1779]

I wonder how much the loan payments were for ACL on the YB loan. Would it surprise anyone if the football club was, in essence, the ones paying for everything but not getting the benefit.

Our deal at the Ricoh was like buying a TV off of Radio Rentals, where you pay substantially over the odds for something. But at the same time worse.. because essentially we would never own said TV, and could only watch it on selected days, and had no input into what we would see.

To complete the lease we would have paid £65m - had 0% ownership and made no additional revenue in 50 years of football matches.

And people wonder why some dislike CCC and ACL.

 

[Rusty Trombone]

Our deal at the Ricoh was like buying a TV off of Radio Rentals, where you pay substantially over the odds for something. But at the same time worse.. because essentially we would never own said TV, and could only watch it on selected days, and had no input into what we would see.

To complete the lease we would have paid £65m - had 0% ownership and made no additional revenue in 50 years of football matches.

And people wonder why some dislike CCC and ACL.

But of course we received 50% at the start for £300k, thank you Council.

Then we sold our 'worthless' share for £6m, thank you Higgs.

 

[Grendel]

But of course we received 50% at the start for £300k, thank you Council.

Then we sold our 'worthless' share for £6m, thank you Higgs.

I thought the sale to Higgs was substantially less and the rest made up of outstanding loans from Alan Higgs?

 

[Ian1779]

But of course we received 50% at the start for £300k, thank you Council.

Then we sold our 'worthless' share for £6m, thank you Higgs.

19[SUP]th[/SUP] December Alan Edward Higgs Charity acquires 50% of ACL from CCFC ltd. Shares owned by Football Investors Limited, which becomes a wholly owned subsidiary of the Charity. Cost to Charity £6,523,184 inc. fees. Payment made £2m cash £2.5m waiver of loan and £2m to two directors who had outstanding loans to FIL who then re loaned the money to CCFC ltd. CCFC Ltd acquires option to purchase shares back from the Charity.

From Sky Blue Trust website http://www.skybluetrust.co.uk/index...c-ltd-holdings-ricoh-build-years-1993-to-2007

 

[Rusty Trombone]

I thought the sale to Higgs was substantially less and the rest made up of outstanding loans from Alan Higgs?

Sounds about right, there were different components to the overall value of the deal as I understand.

 

[Rusty Trombone]

19[SUP]th[/SUP] December Alan Edward Higgs Charity acquires 50% of ACL from CCFC ltd. Shares owned by Football Investors Limited, which becomes a wholly owned subsidiary of the Charity. Cost to Charity £6,523,184 inc. fees. Payment made £2m cash £2.5m waiver of loan and £2m to two directors who had outstanding loans to FIL who then re loaned the money to CCFC ltd. CCFC Ltd acquires option to purchase shares back from the Charity.

From Sky Blue Trust website http://www.skybluetrust.co.uk/index...c-ltd-holdings-ricoh-build-years-1993-to-2007

Thanks. Higgs must wish they had never bothered.

 

[chiefdave]

Nothing is straightforward in this whole sorry saga is it. Seems the deal with Higgs was £2m cash with a buy back formula price that was over £10m!