Samo
Well-Known Member
A democracy that doesn't allow opinions, interesting. Just out of interest; are you a racist?
Simple yet unlikely solution (7 Viewers)
- Thread starter The Philosopher
- Start date
A democracy that doesn't allow opinions, interesting. Just out of interest; are you a racist?
bigfatronssba
Well-Known Member
Your not offering an opinion, your name calling.
Samo
Well-Known Member
That'll be yes then.
bigfatronssba
Well-Known Member
Unless you want to be seen as anti democratic then you need to stop your vile disgusting accusations.
ccfc1234
Well-Known Member
What one party represents to one person it does not automatically mean to another. If you support UKIP it does not make your Far Right or any of the other slurs that get thrown in that parties direction. In my opinion the term "far right" and "racist" get thrown around so readily its offensive to the actual genuine victims of racism.
UKIP do attract racist followers no doubt, but there are loonies on the Far Left who believe in pure anarchy who follow labour and the green party, for some reason they get far less media attention?
While were one the on the off topic stuff........One thing I find annoying is when misguided people in the media call people racist for being anti some religion's, when religion is not about race at all.
UKIP do attract racist followers no doubt, but there are loonies on the Far Left who believe in pure anarchy who follow labour and the green party, for some reason they get far less media attention?
While were one the on the off topic stuff........One thing I find annoying is when misguided people in the media call people racist for being anti some religion's, when religion is not about race at all.
Samo
Well-Known Member
Its nothing to do with democracy Ron, its a simple question; are you a racist or not? If you think it is undemocratic of me to despise racism you have misunderstood democracy.
The Gentleman
Well-Known Member
I'm a 'leftie' but in no way hysterical Ron. When people say UKIP are racist they are more likely to be talking about their beliefs rather than policies. You see, if they really wanted to put their beliefs into their policies then we would just call them the BNP. I say this because all of of the political parties, it is mostly UKIP candidates/members who are 'caught off guard' when expressing racist/homophobic/sexist views. By all means tell me I'm wrong but to me UKIP are just posh BNP, with an education which allows them to work in and have positions of power.
ccfc1234
Well-Known Member
I think there is something in what you say about SOME of them being a better educated more PC version of the BNP. However there are many UKIP followers who come from all racial backgrounds who are not racist, but see the value in an honest debate about the net benefit of EU membership and everything it obligates us to do.
I just wish people were free to debate the facts without slander and unconnected emotive language being used. It moves the debate away from facts and more into mud slinging.
The Philosopher
Well-Known Member
"Gentleman"
Sorry, but this is uninformed, un-researched, over opinionated, bilge.
The only party to outright BAN former members of the BNP is..
UKIP
LABOUR have former BNP Councillors, Prominent Members and Activists.
LABOUR have had Asian Councillors quit on them in 2014 citing racism within Labour.
LABOUR favour an immigration policy that discriminates and favours predominately white EU and excludes non-EU / Commonwealth.
LABOUR is losing the support of Asian voters to UKIP at a tremendous rate.
The head of UKIP in Yorkshire?
AMJAD BASHIR MEP. A Pakistani Muslim.
I could go on and on.
UKIP has over 40000 members and a handful have made stupid remarks. I could find lots of similar quotes from Tory and Labour members.
And what is it with the homophobic/sexist bilge?
Only out-gay ELECTED MEP for Britain?
DAVID COBURN MEP - UKIP (Scotland)
The UKIP "front bench" has a higher ratio of Women than any other mainstream party.
I enjoy and welcome debate. It is 2015, research takes a few seconds, there is no excuse, Gentleman to go spouting such rubbish.
BNP you say ? Pathetic
Samo
Well-Known Member
So then... a party that has learned from past failings, appears to be inclusive, has distanced itself from the BNP, has made every effort to be squeaky clean and acceptable to mainstream voters? You can polish a turd but it's still a turd. Everyone with the slightest moral integrity knows what they are about, what they represent and where their support is dredged from.
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The Philosopher
Well-Known Member
Ok.
Moral Integrity?
LABOUR, The party of FASCIST MP OSWALD MOSLEY.
The party that supported the PEADOPHILE INFORMATION EXCHANGE IN 1990's
Currently has a Jailed Rotherham MP for Expenses Fraud?
LABOUR
Man put in charge of Rotherham Child Abuse scandal where 4 years of Council files have gone missing? Convicted LABOUR MP.
Moral Integrity?
MORAL INTEGRITY?
No, Samo, your opinion.
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Samo
Well-Known Member
I thought we were talking about UKIP? You're obsessive hatred for labour does not help with objectivity.
The Philosopher
Well-Known Member
Objectivity?
From the person who calls people "Oaf" and brands people "racist" based on their uninformed opinion?
Words fail me!
thekidfromstrettoncamp
Well-Known Member
Getting back the firstpost(Simple yet unlikly solution) If you help pay for something someone else ordered and they then decided they did not want to pay you enough would you do the same again. Not me
Samo
Well-Known Member
Wow, are we not even going to attempt accuracy? Who did I call a racist? Please show me that post. I did call Ron an Oaf I'll admit, but that is based on a whole lot more than this thread. Are we really that sensitive?
Can I ask on what basis you call my opinion uninformed?
To be honest you seem a little out of you're depth which I do find to be typical of those adhering themselves to nasty little causes.
The Philosopher
Well-Known Member
Correct.
Correct.
The money however, belongs to the people of Coventry, not the Councillors. It seems to me that certain Labour Councillors have forgotten that fact. The Council is in place to do the bidding of the People who elected them.
Not sure if selling to the Wasps was the will of the Coventry people. It was sound business, but it is really in the interests of the People?
I think that (CCC) is duty bound to make amends to the Football Club representing the City.
The Council hold the cards and in turn the People hold the reins. I don't care if certain Councillors have had to do a bit of work and don't care if they have to so so again in the interests of the City. In my opinion they (CCC) are duty bound to at least explore all options.
BTW, even though I now live in S.Yorks I still pay Council Tax on my Cov House - so I'm not ashamed to have my say on this.
The Philosopher
Well-Known Member
I'm out of my depth? Really you have no idea. But okay - you win Samo, I'm out of my depth.
I was trying to post about the Council and SISU and the opportunity to make something positive happen. I have answered basic financial costing questions and questions about feasibility. I've spent a little time researching prior to posting rather than just posting opinions.
The usual posts in here are either SP out, SISU out, We're heading for L2. I thought it good to post about something potentially constructive and worth exploring. Some good, constructive posts have ensued.
I pointed out that the Labour Council have acted possibly without thought for who they are and who they represent.
UKIP polled about 30pc in Cov at the 2014 elections. I point this out and all kinds of rubbish starts being spouted about BNP and get told to "FUCK OFF", "Nasty little causes" etc.
I'm totally out of my depth, not used to this "level" of "intelligent, informed conversation".
Samo
Well-Known Member
Philosopher... I have no problem with your OP but it does seem that you've used the thread to push your own political views. Why bring up UKIP up at all? Surely you would be extremely nieve not to expect a reaction? Having said that, I bear you no ill will and look forward to constructive debate in the future.
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thekidfromstrettoncamp
Well-Known Member
The money does belong to the people of Coventry but there are far more worthy cases than funding another ground when they did not want to pay a decent price for the Rioch
The Gentleman
Well-Known Member
You have a go at someone for name calling and then call me pathetic and say that I am talking bilge.
You can go online and do your 'research' but it won't tell you what people think, what people say behind closed doors and how people carry on.
You say i'm uninformed and over opinionated yet you gauge this from one post as I don't think I've gone political before on this forum, so surely you are uninformed to say this. Unless of course you know me, but I doubt that.
I base what I say on my experiences. Yes, as limited as they are to only what I have seen and heard, there appears to be a general theme. You can go online to look and find anything to support what you say and I'm sure that I could do the same. I also like to actually hear what people say and the general theme to when people say they are voting UKIP is usually followed by some bullshit about immigrants but they always put the caveat at the end of 'but I'm not racist'. If you don't think that there is an under current of racism in UKIP then fine, that's upto you. Problem is, whatever you say about UKIP being so popular and the only real alternative to what we have now with the mainstream parties, my view is not in the minority as you have found on this forum.
However, I do also know that UKIP actively courted the KNP to form an alliance to secure group status and a stream of European Union funding. No condemnation of this alliance came from anywhere in UKIP but do you know about the KNP? I'll let you read about them but it is basically a bunch of far right thugs from Poland and are known racists and holocaust deniers, seemingly cut from the same cloth as Neo Nazis. But hey, if you're comfortable with such things and only want to put forward your hatred of Labour, that's up-to you.
As I have said, I'm a leftie and always have been. Brought up in a political family but always encouraged to form my own opinions and believe in what I believe in. I don't agree with all of Labour's policies and decisions, but I believe in even less of the other parties so I vote Labour as I want my vote to count.
I won't resort to saying what you write is bilge or calling you pathetic, I'll leave that sort of thing to the Philosphers of this world.
Alan Dugdales Moustache
Well-Known Member
Where does all of this leave Coventry City Football Club ? In a heap of shit by the sound of this .
The Philosopher
Well-Known Member
Samo,
Correct - Perhaps a little naive. I live in South Yorks and in an area badly scarred by the Rotherham Child Abuse Scandal. I have seen first hand the reports of young girls being groomed, raped and even MURDERED, whilst the Labour Councillors and MP's and the Labour Police Commissioner IGNORED the many reports and let it carry on.
It could, and should have been stopped earlier - even Labour agree and the Prime Minister agreed.
People around here are angry and cannot (because of Thatcher who they are also angry with) ever side with the Tories to replace Labour. They are also angry with the Libdems about tuition fees. A lot of This Area is UKIP leaning now - the debate has been had, the facts about policy debated in all of the pubs and in the streets and now even a lot of the Muslims vote UKIP.
So yes, I'm afraid to say that you are right, I have been naive. Coventry is not South Yorks and Labour is not universally despised. I'm influenced by my surroundings you could say.
Wasn't originally trying to push my views (on anything other than football stadium potential) but it is annoying to see people spouting and slagging off without knowing their facts. Many people on here have done so.
I've defended UKIP, yes - I've also conceded that they have attracted some wrong-uns, but this is a football thread.
I am passionate about CCFC. To me it looks as if CCC have taken the fact that Labour will always get in for granted - just like Rotherham used to. CCC appear to think that they can get away with anything and will still get voted in - that they are untouchable and that it is "their" City and "their" money.
It's not, you know!
If I recall correctly, CCFC spent a fortune on decontaminating the land for the Ricoh, BR (to be fair, he showed blind ambition and didn't have 20/20 foresight) did a good (lucky?) deal selling some land to Tesco, there were some murky dealings but the Council profited in the end handsomely. CCFC got into financial trouble and in effect "pawned" (not sold) their half of the Project to Higgs Trust for a lot less than it's value, on the proviso that they could get it back in the future.
Pawning usually means loaning something worth "x" for half of "x" with the opportunity to get it back when times allow.
It seems to me that the Pawn Shop has sold the item (in this case the Ricoh half share) without recourse.
I think SISU are idiots for doing what they have done but the principle of the Stadium Sale is wholly wrong. The Council should not have done that.
The Council is Labour, my point was that in order to move forward, it would be helpful for the Council be changed; they haven't acted in the best manner for CCFC.
Samo, I bear you no ill will but do ask that everyone (including you) takes a moment to research and fact find before posting anything insulting or misguided.
I apologise for pointing out UKIP policy and highlighting Labour hypocrisy. This is a football forum.
The Philosopher
Well-Known Member
Alan,
The club is in a heap of shit but there is a way out of the sewer. With a bit of a positive attitude and verve and flair we could have a new stadium in Cov (let's dream, let's have an imposing 4 standed, close-to-the-pitch cantilever job where the noise echoes rather than wafts weakly out as it does at the soulless Ricoh bowl)
In America, the big difference is that people get up after a fall, get encouraged by others, dust themselves off and have another go. I just hope JS (and her real backers - JS is just the front - it's not her money) are those type of Yanks.
And I'll have that moustache off of you when you've finished with it - people here suggest I need it
thekidfromstrettoncamp
Well-Known Member
If i recall rightly it was an E U urban regeneration payment that did this contamination.As for pawning if no money from Higgs Trust and CCC no build
The Philosopher
Well-Known Member
Gentleman,
I agree with and concede a couple of your points but comparing the BNP to UKIP is akin to comparing the Labour Party to the Communist Party.
You write eloquently so I am surprised at your original post.
No one is really in a position to broadcast their opinion on what they think other people think and say behind closed doors. It makes no sense, does it? Who really knows what other people think?
What I do know, and can state, based on polling results; is that people who support UKIP often feel pressured into denying so until they get to the Polling Booths.
Labour activists tend to be very vocal, so two or three negative comments on this thread is far from surprising.
I admire your commitment to the Labour Party, many people have lost faith but cannot bring themselves to vote elsewhere, some look for an alternative.
Do people really want Ed. M. Potentially having to go toe-to-toe against ISIS or Putin or dealing with the Scottish issue? - I suspect not. (As an aside, if I were labour I would be offering the world to Alex Salmond to defect).
On a personal note, I do wish UKIP would rid itself of some of it's undesired followers - they would make themselves far more popular.
With regards to the Polish thing, I did look at that at the time. If I recall correctly, it was a FORMER right winger - now reformed. People change their allegiances, (well I hope you ex BNP Councillors have!)
The bottom line is, I still maintain that your post was off-beam in bracketing the BNP and UKIP, and as a person who clearly understands politics I am unsure of your reasons for doing so. Perhaps, being active in the Labour Party?
The original thrust of the thread was about the Labour Council and how they should change course. There seems to be overtures being made - a sea-change perhaps?
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Gynnsthetonic
Well-Known Member
Love that to happen! A proper football ground in Coventry.Alan,
The club is in a heap of shit but there is a way out of the sewer. With a bit of a positive attitude and verve and flair we could have a new stadium in Cov (let's dream, let's have an imposing 4 standed, close-to-the-pitch cantilever job where the noise echoes rather than wafts weakly out as it does at the soulless Ricoh bowl)
In America, the big difference is that people get up after a fall, get encouraged by others, dust themselves off and have another go. I just hope JS (and her real backers - JS is just the front - it's not her money) are those type of Yanks.
And I'll have that moustache off of you when you've finished with it - people here suggest I need it
ccfc1234
Well-Known Member
So wise words form someone who clearly sees the bigger picture in life. I really would love the people of Cov to elect another party as surely they could not beat up on the club more than the current incumbents have.
James Smith
Well-Known Member
Not sure you can blame the two faced council for the lack of a train station. The strategic Rail Authority (possibly railtrack?) and the Department for Transport were the ones who blocked it first time around I believe.
The Philosopher
Well-Known Member
Thanks for your kind words. "Beat up on"? - bit of an Amercian phrase that. Hmmm...
Anyway, I was speaking to one of the parties involved with the whole SISU / ACL case and it was opined that JS believes that what she owns is, in the American sense, a football franchise.
It's easy to term and consider franchise in the UK sense and hence create all sorts of mad responses so let's just park pre-conceptions a moment.
I sponsor a lot of boxing in the North. Park that a moment.
CCFC will attract 8-10 k people for each home match at this level, with a potential for 25k plus in the Prem.
This means that at 5pm on a Saturday (normally) there is a footfall of a minimum of 8k people all leaving a football ground. Some go home, some would perhaps want to extend their Saturday afternoon for a few hours. The demographic of a football fan does (often but not always) have synergies with that of a boxing fan.
Don't think there is anything too controversial there?
The idea that I have been floating with my contacts is staging boxing bouts immediately after the football matches finish. Possibly a headline match supported by local, up and coming boxers from Cov / Warks. matched between their equivalents in from the away team's area?
Entry free / a token amount (with CCFC ticket stub natch). The revenue is generated by advertising, programmes, food and bev etc. TV cameras more likely to film in front of a full venue rather than an empty one. More advertising etc.
To a degree, the combination of the two may pull more spectators in (better value per hour?)
The boxers get to fight in front of a couple of thousand people (promoter gets to sign better boxers in the back of that), win-win.
This model actually works better with a stadium away from the City-Centre rather than one close-to. The Ricoh offers the Casino and this model MAY work in one of the Exhibition areas. Not everyone wants to go to the Casino and may well want an alternative.
Back on-piste so to speak with the OP, the Council and SISU could conceivably build a stadium with a boxing gym / boxing hall mini-arena ( could be used for all sorts of things - From MMA to Chess - 7 days a week). This would be easier to attract finance for and would create more revenue for the owner (CCFC).
CCFC have a bit of a golden ticket (franchise) to attract footfall. In business terms this is the golden ticket to create revenue.
Rightly or wrongly, Tim F has often banged-on in a superior tone about "Revenue". It's a shame that he's not been more engaging because he is in many ways right. The club needs revenue from more than just ticket sales and a few shirts and the occasional TV windfall. This model creates that. It also enables and could partially justify the building of a new Stadium in say, Holbrooks.
The Council would benefit too, up here many of the boxers are from an ethnic minority. In the gym people train together and it breaks down barriers. It actually knits the community. The Council is often required to support community projects.
I'd be interested to learn the thoughts of any other sensible Poster.
Interesting stuff there Philosopher .
There Is even a subterranean level below the casino that needs utilising ,Casino could accommodate 2K IMo.
Recently there has been some local boxing on at the RICOH but not on a matchday IIRC.
Coventry Uni recently held an inter Uni contest but staged In town as I recall ,might be worth a contact .
There Is even a subterranean level below the casino that needs utilising ,Casino could accommodate 2K IMo.
Recently there has been some local boxing on at the RICOH but not on a matchday IIRC.
Coventry Uni recently held an inter Uni contest but staged In town as I recall ,might be worth a contact .
J
Jack Griffin
Guest
Seems to me you've got better business head on you than the people who are running the club at the moment.
I don't understand why no one is moving to accommodate the soon to be displaced Bees somewhere local with existing parking facilities.