Mary_Mungo_Midge
Well-Known Member
It's his word, not mine. And I don't think that the Lucas 'profitability' issue has been proven so. I can copy and paste the clip from the other thread you ran away from if you wish?
Council admits Ricoh Arena was not sustainable without CCFC (18 Viewers)
- Thread starter SimonGilbert
- Start date
It's his word, not mine. And I don't think that the Lucas 'profitability' issue has been proven so. I can copy and paste the clip from the other thread you ran away from if you wish?
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
I think that's the point. SISU never made a bid until it was too late despite a public announcement that any serious bids will be considered. Unless you consider publicly stating that you've moved on and are building your own stadium an offer. Which I'm sure you don't.
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skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
I don't understand what you're lolling at. Is it that SISU never made a bid until it was too late? Not really something to lol at is it?
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
I don't believe I have actually said they did want to do a deal have I? Although saying that I think it would be somewhat ridiculous to assume, were the right deal available, they wouldn't have been interested.
What I have said is that there should have been a fair and open process based on factual statements not lies. That would be open to all, if CRFC wished to bid they could, if CCFC wished to bid they could, same for Wasps, Coventry United, AEG or anyone else. If that had happened, and happened from the start, we may well now be owners of the Ricoh and have never endured Sixfields, equally we may not but it would have been a process that stood up to scrutiny. The sale to Wasps certainly does not.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
I didn't say at what price, just say what is for sale. I can't understand why people are objecting to the idea of a fair and open sale process with the people of Coventry being consulted.
Mary_Mungo_Midge
Well-Known Member
Wait there. You're now saying that there should have been a fair and open process; but can't even say for certain if the football club even wanted to deal?
And what CCC lies? Define them please? The smoking gun from the JRs didn't manifest itself. So, define 'lies' please
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Can you give me a link to the the statement from Lucas that ACL was being placed on the market for sale with a 200 year lease extension.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
I'm saying there should have been a fair and open process without the Council and Higgs lying about the status of ACL. I would have expected the club to bid, I would also have expected the fans to be pressing the club to bid if it was known ACL was being sold.
Have you been in a coma the last two days? I suggest you look at the Telegraph or Observer websites or listen to Shane O'Connors interview with Lucas from this morning.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
I don't think she placed conditions on it. She invited any serious offer. I guess Wasps serious offer included a 250 year lease. I'm not sure what SISU's serious offer included.
Mary_Mungo_Midge
Well-Known Member
So, this reference to 'lies', you actually mean one issue that's come out in recent days and didn't influence the whole sale process at all as it's only seen the light of day post-conclusion? And whilst I'm on that issue, can you help Grendel with the point he couldn't address?
In signing off ACL's accounts without concern for the on-going health of the business; the auditors shared the same view as that of Lucas. The same view was espoused by the Judicial Review judge, who stated "The private investor in the shoes of the Council would have been properly entitled to take the view that ACL was capable of servicing a loan for £14.4m over 41 years, and the security was sufficient to make the risk of it failing to do so commercially worthwhile.” So, a judge, being in independent possession of all facts saw no issue with regards ACL's health for over 40 years.
So, were the auditors and the Judicial Review judge telling 'lies' too? Both saw ACL - being in possession of all facts - as the ongoing concern Lucas eluded to
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Exactly, they did't say it was being sold. They also made repeated claims about the performance of ACL without the club which would lead you to believe they could quite happily sit on ACL until SISU moved on. Nobody seriously thought they were holding talks for 2 years with Wasps, they seemed to miss that detail out everytime they spoke about ACL and the Ricoh.
Rusty Trombone
Well-Known Member
SISU had previously agreed with the Council to a 125 year lease, that's long enough, what other stadiums around now were built over 110 years ago.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
There's more than one lie that's come to light in the last couple of days. I suggest you go back and read the thread from the beginning. I would suggest that by creating a false picture of how ACL was performing it very much impacted on the sale process. Although there wasn't really a process was there and thats the problem. There was a deal done in secret.
I have no idea what this has to do with what is being discussed. I would say they didn't, at no point have I seen it reported the accounts just released contained a statement from the auditors that those very accounts showed ACL making a profit, or performing better without CCFC, or that CCFC were only 10% of ACLs business in the previous year? As for the JR are you saying that the judge was provided with copies of the accounts that have just become public and was informed by the council that their public statements had been false? Again though I have no idea what any of that has to do with if the council has lied or not. They did, listen to Lucas this morning on CWR, even she admits it.
Mary_Mungo_Midge
Well-Known Member
I have heard Lucas on the radio. It makes uncomfortable listening, I agree. However, why is the above pertinent?
Lucas is being judged retrospectively. The claims she made then are being shown as wrong. The point I am making is that the JR judge had the same data Lucas had at the time she claimed things looked rosy. He gave a decent prognosis too. If you claim retrospectively that Lucas is lying, then you must conclude the JR judge is lying too.
Ditto the auditors with regards their lack of note relating to the ongoing viability of the business in the signed-off accounts. You do understand the auditors obligations in that regard, I presume. They cannot 'lie'
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chiefdave
Well-Known Member
So we are now ignoring anything that happened in the past. Anything that SISU did under Ranson and Delieu's leadership is off limits, any of Fishers previous statements can no longer be mentioned? Or is it just when CCC are found out that this applies?
You're the only one going on about auditors and judges. Everyone else is saying Lucas lied and it is clear to everyone else that she did.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
I think publicly stating they'd listen to any serious offer is good indicator that it was for sale, at least for the right offer. I don't know what else they could have done? Listed it on eBay maybe? I don't know.
SISU have repeated claims that they've moved on and are building their own stadium, are we to let that to lead us to believe it will happen. The whole saga has been one big game of poker.
This it started 2 years ago thing. I've heard it a few times on here but hasn't it always been quickly dismissed as the money men who made the ACL takeover possible weren't on the scene 2 years ago?
Mary_Mungo_Midge
Well-Known Member
I said nothing like that. I am saying that a Judicial Review judge made a comment on ACL's health moving forwards and gave you the quote. I have raised the question with regards the signed accounts. I have asked why Lucas is judged a liar when her judgement is proven retrospectively wrong, but the judge, with the same information making a similar prognosis isn't?!? It really is quite a simple question, without need of comparisons
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Let's try this, you desperately need to sell your house. What do you do:
1) say you don't need to sell your house but if anyone were to make an offer you would have a look at their offer but you could quite happily keep living there for years.
2) put your house on the market
Of course we now know that at the point Lucas was stating there was no need to sell CCC were already well down the road in negotiations with Wasps.
They also said we would never play at the Ricoh again, where are we playing our home games currently? People seem to like to take certain things that SISU say as 100% fact while dismissing other things they say as 100% false.
It has been stated by Wasps themselves that the first started talking with CCC about the Ricoh two years ago.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
The accounts have only been released this week so the judge would not have had access to them. He may have had access to the books from the period in question but as he's not an accountant that probably isn't of any significance. As far as I'm aware now part of the JR was a forensic examination of ACLs accounts and a comparison against comments Ann Lucas had publicly made. So Lucas can say ACL is making a profit without CCFC, a lie, without it leading to the judge needing to rule that ACL was about to collapse. The same with the accountants.
Let's say you are my bank manager. I have a business, I tell you I am making a profit every month and will make £1.2m this year. On the basis of that you give me a loan for £20m. I then file my accounts which cover the period I told you I was making a profit. The accounts show a loss of £500K. Was I telling you the truth? The loan payments are £100K a year can I afford them for the next 20 years, I am expected to make a profit in the future, can I afford them? If I don't make a profit and continue to make a loss is your money at risk? If my business is expect to make a profit in the future will the auditors sign off my accounts?
mighty quinn
New Member
Thread not important. Most of us know sisu had as much intention of buying Ricoh as they were building a new stadium. zero
Nick
Administrator
What were they doing then?
Astute
Well-Known Member
It looks to me as though they would have prefered to pay 7m in legal fees to get it for nothing than to pay 6m for it.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Not exactly.
I think she lied. But we don't know for sure what information she was given. It might have even had a plus balance sheet for the year but made a loss. IIRC the money for the contracts at the arena were split between the years. So on the balance sheet would have looked like a profit when making a loss. It is the same with SISU. We know that the lies are flying about. But are they from Joy, Fisher, the pair of them or are they being mislead or given wrong information? We don't know for sure but it just seems that way.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
How can a balance sheet be plus or negative?
Would be interested to see the source?
Nothing concrete in that. BTW, two years ago Richardson didn't own Wasps.
Moff
Well-Known Member
Evidence of this?
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Nick Eastwood at a fans forum. Did Wasps PR company not brief you on that?
letsallsingtogether
Well-Known Member
Corker that and now they have nothing......Wankers.
Fucked up our Club
Fucked our Fans
Fucked our team
Now they just need to Fuck Off...........
Yes cash flow positive yet only thing they own is Ryton oh and a rented shop on a shopping Park.
No he didn't. And think logically for a moment, if this deal was being discussed two years ago, why did it take so long to close. Makes no sense.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
So they weren't discussing a merger with CRFC 2 years ago?
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Think in the know needs to give the PR firm a ring in the morning as they obviously haven't briefed him on all the facts.
letsallsingtogether
Well-Known Member
No that was CRFC trying to buy Bedford RFC....