Sisu refused permission to appeal... (13 Viewers)

[Ian1779]

You mean like Northampton Councils loan to Northampton Town FC for their ground extension?

Technically the local council own Sixfields.... so they were providing money to develop the stadium for themselves but to benefit NTFC.

Can you see the theme here... local council supportive of football club means better outcomes all round.

Shame the bird from Benidorm couldn't see it.

 

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[Grendel]

Neither do I but you're conveniently ignoring the point that local authorities lend money to private business all the time and within state aid laws.

Do you think a fantastic organisation with excellent marketing and a great business opportunity be given state aid?

 

[Hobo]

You said it in relation to the CCC loan to ACL, ACL is now a totally seperate private body, who should repay the loan to the local taxpayers, either through their own funds(if they have them), or through their own borrowing(if they can get it).

Local taxpayers should not have their funds put at risk for the benefit of a private enterprise.

Of course Wasps should have no problems raising the finance with such a good business.

Hardly argues a case for the offer/s SISU put in then does it?

 

[Hobo]

Do you think a fantastic organisation with excellent marketing and a great business opportunity be given state aid?

What state aid? When has it been declared state aid?

 

[Kingokings204]

Can someone explain what lying about the account of ACL showing a loss of 400k affects ccfc?

 

[chiefdave]

When the JR was held and it was claimed that ACL could have got a loan from a private lender instead was any evidence actually produced to back this up? Did they have an offer or anything from a lender to prove their argument or are we just taking the councils word for it?

 

[skybluetony176]

Technically the local council own Sixfields.... so they were providing money to develop the stadium for themselves but to benefit NTFC.

Can you see the theme here... local council supportive of football club means better outcomes all round.

Shame the bird from Benidorm couldn't see it.

Technically CCC own the Ricoh site.

Yes I see the theme. Do you remember when CCC bailed out CCFC after we'd sold HR and couldn't afford Arena 2000?

 

[Mr T - Sukka!]

I wonder how much SISU have "invested" recently into these court cases?

Just imagine if they put all the money into the first team squad instead?

We would have had some players in our teams. Hiring legal teams and appeals are not cheap!

 

[skybluetony176]

Do you think a fantastic organisation with excellent marketing and a great business opportunity be given state aid?

Are you talking in pirate or something? I'm not sure what you're trying to say there.

 

[Jack Griffin]

Technically the local council own Sixfields.... so they were providing money to develop the stadium for themselves but to benefit NTFC.

Can you see the theme here... local council supportive of football club means better outcomes all round.

Shame the bird from Benidorm couldn't see it.

There is also 33 acres of mixed commercial & residential development in the scheme.

 

[chiefdave]

Can someone explain what lying about the account of ACL showing a loss of 400k affects ccfc?

In a nutshell Fisher had been saying for a long time that ACL was reliant on CCFC and therefore any purchase price for ACL would need to reflect that, SISU felt ACL was being overvalued on a false pretence. CCC & Higgs repeatedly stated this was untrue including statements that ACL was making money when CCFC were in Northampton, as recently as the time of the Wasps deal.

The unknown is what would have happened if CCC had been up front from the start, would we have even ended up with the whole rent dispute?

There's also issues over the CCC loan to ACL. This was claimed to be paid from a loan, not true, so what was voted for did not happen and taxpayers money was used instead; would the vote have been in favour of the loan if the true state of ACL was known, if there was no loan does the likelihood of a sale to CCFC increases; the risk to taxpayers, CCC have previously said they would never loan to a loss making private company, both ACL and Wasps are making losses.

Finally an issue surrounding misleading or false information being given to councillors in order to persuade them to first approve the loan and later approve the sale to Wasps.

 

[lordsummerisle]

Hardly argues a case for the offer/s SISU put in then does it?

Sisu were going to discharge the loan, so no public money would have been involved. Pretty much argues the case entirely for the offer Sisu put in.

 

[bigfatronssba]

You said it in relation to the CCC loan to ACL, ACL is now a totally seperate private body, who should repay the loan to the local taxpayers, either through their own funds(if they have them), or through their own borrowing(if they can get it).

Local taxpayers should not have their funds put at risk for the benefit of a private enterprise.

Of course Wasps should have no problems raising the finance with such a good business.

Sorry but the law doesn't work like that.

The contract was between CCC and ACL. That contract still exists, ownership of ACL is irrelevant to that.

The only time ownership of ACL comes into this is when discussing CCC's motive for offering the loan, which was based on the circumstances of January 2013, not events 20 months later.

 

[lordsummerisle]

Sorry but the law doesn't work like that.

The contract was between CCC and ACL. That contract still exists, ownership of ACL is irrelevant to that.

The only time ownership of ACL comes into this is when discussing CCC's motive for offering the loan, which was based on the circumstances of January 2013, not events 20 months later.

Do you mean that it does work like that when you use it to support the argument that it wasn't state aid, but doesn't when it doesn't?

 

[bigfatronssba]

Technically the local council own Sixfields.... so they were providing money to develop the stadium for themselves but to benefit NTFC.

Can you see the theme here... local council supportive of football club means better outcomes all round.

Shame the bird from Benidorm couldn't see it.

Technically CCC own the Ricoh, ACL/Wasps are just the operators.

 

[chiefdave]

The contract was between CCC and ACL. That contract still exists, ownership of ACL is irrelevant to that.

Some people have suggested that the loan to a Wasps owned ACL isn't the same loan, certainly the terms have changed. Of course as they have nothing to hide CCC have refused to state if is the same loan or a new one. There could also be an arguement made that at the point CCC loaned the money to ACL they were fully aware of the impending change in ownership.

 

[bigfatronssba]

When the JR was held and it was claimed that ACL could have got a loan from a private lender instead was any evidence actually produced to back this up? Did they have an offer or anything from a lender to prove their argument or are we just taking the councils word for it?

Yorkshire Bank refused to write off any of ACL's debt as YB believed ACL was in a position to meet its obligations.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

And, to be fair, all those who have ever wanted the truth should support it. If, as we all say on here we want the truth then hopefully these revelations will help us get it. Regardless of whether we like what we hear or not.

I don't give a fig for the truth as it is all in the past!
I want closure...to move on to a more encouraging positive future, & to hell with the lot of them that have dragged us down to the state we are in.

PUSB

 

[bigfatronssba]

Do you mean that it does work like that when you use it to support the argument that it wasn't state aid, but doesn't when it doesn't?

But it wasn't state aid was it? That has been proven.

 

[bigfatronssba]

Some people have suggested that the loan to a Wasps owned ACL isn't the same loan, certainly the terms have changed. Of course as they have nothing to hide CCC have refused to state if is the same loan or a new one. There could also be an arguement made that at the point CCC loaned the money to ACL they were fully aware of the impending change in ownership.

With regard to the first bit (it being a separate loan), that is something that would be worth knowing more about. But I still stand by my point in that a new loan would have nothing to do with the original loan, or the JR. Only a new JR could look into that.

As for CCC knowing about a change in ownership, that would be speculative at best. Even if they were in discussions at the time with Wasps (highly unlikely), it wouldn't be expected of CCC to take that as a certainty.

 

[ccfc1234]

But it wasn't state aid was it? That has been proven.

Subjective words and dont think we have heard the last of that truth!!

 

[chiefdave]

Yorkshire Bank refused to write off any of ACL's debt as YB believed ACL was in a position to meet its obligations.

If YB has no worries about ACL meeting it's obligations why was the new loan even needed? It was supposed to be as there was a concern the loan would be called in as YB were getting worried about ACL's ability to pay, which seemed to coincide with a senior member of staff moving from one organisation to the other..

 

[skybluetony176]

Do you mean that it does work like that when you use it to support the argument that it wasn't state aid, but doesn't when it doesn't?

They had an agreement with YB then?

 

[sw88]

@TheSimonGilbert: BREAKING: Sisu statement following rejection of appeal permission: "Sisu has confirmed the process and will now apply for an oral hearing."

 

[zuni]

simon has confirmed that sisu are pressing for an oral appeal.......sigh

 

[tisza]

When the JR was held and it was claimed that ACL could have got a loan from a private lender instead was any evidence actually produced to back this up? Did they have an offer or anything from a lender to prove their argument or are we just taking the councils word for it?

weren't there documents from Yorkshire bank showing they were prepared to restructure the loan? isn't the jr verdict available on this site? would help clear up some of the nonsense including les reid's assertion about sisu being willing and able to write off the bank loan.

 

[Ian1779]

Technically CCC own the Ricoh site.

Yes I see the theme. Do you remember when CCC bailed out CCFC after we'd sold HR and couldn't afford Arena 2000?

Yes I do.

I also remember CCFC paying around £10m in rent between 2005 and 2012 and gaining 0% revenue and 0% ownership in that time.

How much did Wasps pay again for the whole lot??

Whether you hate SISU or not... your defence of the council is shameful

 

[zuni]

but why are they bothering....its not like that they will get wasps deal over turned and they get it instead ffs......

 

[bigfatronssba]

If YB has no worries about ACL meeting it's obligations why was the new loan even needed? It was supposed to be as there was a concern the loan would be called in as YB were getting worried about ACL's ability to pay, which seemed to coincide with a senior member of staff moving from one organisation to the other..

Better man than me will have to answer that. I was just quoting a bit from the JR. The reason neither Sisu nor CCC could get a deal on the YB mortgage was because they wanted and expected full payment.

 

[Ian1779]

If YB has no worries about ACL meeting it's obligations why was the new loan even needed? It was supposed to be as there was a concern the loan would be called in as YB were getting worried about ACL's ability to pay, which seemed to coincide with a senior member of staff moving from one organisation to the other..

The fact that CCC tried to do the same deal with YB initially as what SISU had suggested would make you think both parties saw some merit in it.

 

[skybluetony176]

Yes I do.

I also remember CCFC paying around £10m in rent between 2005 and 2012 and gaining 0% revenue and 0% ownership in that time.

How much did Wasps pay again for the whole lot?



Whether you hate SISU or not... your defence of the council is shameful

I know. It's amazing what you can achieve if you approach negotiations from the right angle.

Tell me how I've defended CCC?

 

[Samo]

simon has confirmed that sisu are pressing for an oral appeal.......sigh

In light of recent revelations, including today's, why the fuck wouldn't they? I hope they win and I hope heads roll at the council house.

 

[bigfatronssba]

Yes I do.

I also remember CCFC paying around £10m in rent between 2005 and 2012 and gaining 0% revenue and 0% ownership in that time.

How much did Wasps pay again for the whole lot??

Whether you hate SISU or not... your defence of the council is shameful

Not technically true. They did get some revenue.

Also I never knew that renting something meant you got ownership of it after an unspecified amount of time.

When do expect Gallagher Developments to hand over the deeds to the club shop?

 

[bigfatronssba]

In light of recent revelations, including today's, why the fuck wouldn't they? I hope they win and I hope heads roll at the council house.

Because recent revelations have nothing to do with the JR.

Shame your putting your hatred of the council ahead of what's good for the club isn't it?

 

[wingy]

When the JR was held and it was claimed that ACL could have got a loan from a private lender instead was any evidence actually produced to back this up? Did they have an offer or anything from a lender to prove their argument or are we just taking the councils word for it?

Think it was stated during JR that YB would have renegotiated on different timescale
which would have incurred more interest due to extention