fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Many thanks for clearing that up.
Club’s owners “not prepared to take on the risk” of sharing the Ricoh (13 Viewers)
- Thread starter Calista
- Start date
Many thanks for clearing that up.
Oh, that explain why it isn't part of the 'OSB online Course on Financial Analysis For Beginners'
Because that type of loans yields a higher interest? But that is paid to the external lender - the council, not to Wasps investors/owners.
Question: Why didn't Wasps owner/investor replace the loan with one from themselves? Surely, if the loan is seen as safe it would make sense pay interests to Wasps owners instead?
You tell me? But even if the rating is improving I doubt the terms of the loan is getting cheaper. That would require negotiation with the council - good luck with that!
We don't know if ccfc (Otium) is paying anything towards the court cases.
My opinions on why sisu didn't make a real attempt to buy into ACL this time (November 2014) is (to paraphrase TF): Three turkeys does not an eagle make. Like I said before, I am not convinced Wasps/CCFC/ACL will make a combined profit any time soon.
You believe they 'missed a trick'? Well, I think they have enough accounting and auditing power that we can rule that one out. More likely CCC have footed the bill 'as part of the overall buy-out'.
One thing we will need to remember when analysing ACL's last accounts - They made £1m in lease assignment fee. This is a non cash-flow item, but it effects the P&L. This won't be there next year! That alone is more than Wasps and CCFC pay in rent.
How much of the revenue from Wasps matches is returned to Wasps?
How much of the F/B money is profit - how much is going to Compass?
It's all very complicated and I only have my intuition to rely on - I am not convinced ACL/Wasps will make a combined profit. The joker may be the name sponsor.
I am even less confident that a combination of Wasps/ccfc/ACL will make enough money for adequate investments for both teams as well as stadium upgrades.
It is guess work, I agree.
The Gentleman
Well-Known Member
Oh, that explain why it isn't part of the 'OSB online Course on Financial Analysis For Beginners'
Because that type of loans yields a higher interest? But that is paid to the external lender - the council, not to Wasps investors/owners.
Question: Why didn't Wasps owner/investor replace the loan with one from themselves? Surely, if the loan is seen as safe it would make sense pay interests to Wasps owners instead?
You tell me? But even if the rating is improving I doubt the terms of the loan is getting cheaper. That would require negotiation with the council - good luck with that!
We don't know if ccfc (Otium) is paying anything towards the court cases.
My opinions on why sisu didn't make a real attempt to buy into ACL this time (November 2014) is (to paraphrase TF): Three turkeys does not an eagle make. Like I said before, I am not convinced Wasps/CCFC/ACL will make a combined profit any time soon.
You believe they 'missed a trick'? Well, I think they have enough accounting and auditing power that we can rule that one out. More likely CCC have footed the bill 'as part of the overall buy-out'.
One thing we will need to remember when analysing ACL's last accounts - They made £1m in lease assignment fee. This is a non cash-flow item, but it effects the P&L. This won't be there next year! That alone is more than Wasps and CCFC pay in rent.
How much of the revenue from Wasps matches is returned to Wasps?
How much of the F/B money is profit - how much is going to Compass?
It's all very complicated and I only have my intuition to rely on - I am not convinced ACL/Wasps will make a combined profit. The joker may be the name sponsor.
I am even less confident that a combination of Wasps/ccfc/ACL will make enough money for adequate investments for both teams as well as stadium upgrades.
It is guess work, I agree.
Hey Godiva, thanks for that. Just wondered what your thoughts were on the recent events about the new stadium and Fishers comments?
I am with Duffer on this:
In addition I think the Supporters Consultative Group should ask TF to explain the confusions over the FOI's to Rugby and Nuneaton councils.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
I can't understand why they didn't challenge that. Even if, as some thing, Garlick is somehow connected with SISU there were others there such as representatives of the trust who actually made the FOI requests. Why go to that trouble and then, when sat in a meeting with Fisher, just let him contradict the results of the FOI requests without any challenege?
Wasn't there Trust reps at a board meeting where apparently TF showed the progress on the stadium project? If so, those reps may actually believe the plans are moving forward?
But I guess the Trust is just as divided as the rest of the fans base.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
That was members of the SCG I think, which does have a couple of the trust on there but I don't think it was them.
Oh, that explain why it isn't part of the 'OSB online Course on Financial Analysis For Beginners'
Because that type of loans yields a higher interest? But that is paid to the external lender - the council, not to Wasps investors/owners.
Question: Why didn't Wasps owner/investor replace the loan with one from themselves? Surely, if the loan is seen as safe it would make sense pay interests to Wasps owners instead?
You tell me? But even if the rating is improving I doubt the terms of the loan is getting cheaper. That would require negotiation with the council - good luck with that!
We don't know if ccfc (Otium) is paying anything towards the court cases.
My opinions on why sisu didn't make a real attempt to buy into ACL this time (November 2014) is (to paraphrase TF): Three turkeys does not an eagle make. Like I said before, I am not convinced Wasps/CCFC/ACL will make a combined profit any time soon.
You believe they 'missed a trick'? Well, I think they have enough accounting and auditing power that we can rule that one out. More likely CCC have footed the bill 'as part of the overall buy-out'.
One thing we will need to remember when analysing ACL's last accounts - They made £1m in lease assignment fee. This is a non cash-flow item, but it effects the P&L. This won't be there next year! That alone is more than Wasps and CCFC pay in rent.
How much of the revenue from Wasps matches is returned to Wasps?
How much of the F/B money is profit - how much is going to Compass?
It's all very complicated and I only have my intuition to rely on - I am not convinced ACL/Wasps will make a combined profit. The joker may be the name sponsor.
I am even less confident that a combination of Wasps/ccfc/ACL will make enough money for adequate investments for both teams as well as stadium upgrades.
It is guess work, I agree.
all all guess work, with a few red herrings thrown in by all sides to make it even harder.
Just a general point, all three have made a loss or are making losses currently. The two sports clubs claim that a major point was not owning the stadium and income rights. The stadium management company had no sports tenant. Theoretically if all three belonged to the same holding company theses problems have been eliminated. The stadium has two sports teams and the sports clubs are joint owners of a stadium and a large part of the income rights. In addition they have the support of CCC ( and even the expectation of working together ) to redevelop the surrounding land for leisure purposes. ACL is now commercial - not hampered by CCC or charity regulations - and has long term security of tenure. CCFC is no longer tied up with high wage contracts and Wasps have increased their attendances. I don't think a merged trio would be doomed to failure and see it as an attractive alternative for all sides ( including Wasps ). The Ricoh station will be built shortly and the Rugby World Cup will generate more interest in Rugby. Maybe I'm just dreaming, but dreaming is better than accepting the nightmare that we are watching now.
We might have been cash flow positive at that point in time - transfer fees just received maybe, but it doesnt mean we are at break or making a profit over a longer period of time. Another nonsense statement from Tim. We will see if accounts are ever produced. He wont have a Calum Wilson to sell every month/year.
Too scared too that is why
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
How do you know no one did challenge it?
Aren't the minutes the ones that Mr Fisher agrees and signs off before being published?
The only way to get any sort of public answer from Mr Fisher will be to ask the question at an open forum I'd imagine. I don't know if he's scheduled to do any.
You lost me there!
Nonleagueherewecome
Well-Known Member
Not OK, but certainly no worse. Once they were in Northampton, they may as well have been on Mars as far as I was concerned.
Moff
Well-Known Member
No nerve hit, just being honest. I thought you would appreciate that. I think the Saints are current Champions not Wasps.
I dont need to grow up, I just lowered the level of my post to your lovestruck teenager crap about 'Coventry the powerhouse of Rugby' so I suggest perhaps its you who needs to start acting a bit more mature.
On the plus side I can relate to people watching sport to enjoy it, but find it hard to believe the mases of Shrosphire would move en masse past their local team to wtach a franchise team in Coventry. :claping hands:
Nick
Administrator
True, but I mean for away games too etc.
duffer
Well-Known Member
Accounts will have to be produced, though not necessarily on time, and whilst receipts are on their arse it's also got to be true that the wage bill is low now too.
If you don't think we're close to breaking even cash flow wise, then you'll presumably you accept that SISU are continuing to pump money in. Do you see that as likely?
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
This lease income write off thing. Here is what I think has happened
back in 2008 when Isle of Capri pulled out there were two payments received by ACL. one to compensate for IofC leaving the second was a payment allocate the lease to G casino on an up front payment. The first payment went straight to P&L the second was received but related to the remainder of the lease ie 7 years. That upfront payment was amortised to P&L account over a 7 year period and G Casino probably paid no annual rent in that period having paid up front.
That is not an unreasonable way of allocating the income
The full amount was actually received in 2008 so there was a big cash flow positive in that year but no actual movement in funds in subsequent years.
Some of the sums received in 2008 was used to pay down the original 21m loan early as well as spent on fixed assets
As we all know cashflow doesn't always equal profit in the same year or some times at all
If the write down of the sum received finishes next year then that would lead me to conclude the G Casino lease is up for renewal too. Which will mean that there will be new rents to collect so compensating for the lost 961k that everyone seems to get so exercised about
The Casino I believe has been doing very well, and probably even better with the large crowds attending the Rugby and the return of CCFC
Of course if I am right anyone who has had access to the records say for due diligence would know all that wouldn't they
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I am not disputing anything you say - in fact I mentioned it was a non cash flow item in the 2014 accounts.
The point I tried to make - very poorly - was that without the lease assignment fee the P&L would be £1m more in red. 2015 accounts won't have a lease assignment fee as the 7 year period ran out in 2014.
If I am right it will be even more difficult to make ACL/Wasps profitable.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
To answer a couple of the other points Godiva
Wasps own ACL outright so the reality is any profits that ACL make go to Wasps because of the group situation
Compass own 23% of IEC and are entitled to 23% of any dividends IEC pay out. They have a supply contract to provide IEC with staff etc which is where Compass take their cut. They do not get nor never have got a share of the income including F&B.
The F&B income forms part of the ACL group accounts and that group now forms part of the London Wasps Holdings group accounts
Wasps own ACL outright so the reality is any profits that ACL make go to Wasps because of the group situation
Compass own 23% of IEC and are entitled to 23% of any dividends IEC pay out. They have a supply contract to provide IEC with staff etc which is where Compass take their cut. They do not get nor never have got a share of the income including F&B.
The F&B income forms part of the ACL group accounts and that group now forms part of the London Wasps Holdings group accounts
lordsummerisle
Well-Known Member
To answer a couple of the other points Godiva
Wasps own ACL outright so the reality is any profits that ACL make go to Wasps because of the group situation
Compass own 23% of IEC and are entitled to 23% of any dividends IEC pay out. They have a supply contract to provide IEC with staff etc which is where Compass take their cut. They do not get nor never have got a share of the income including F&B.
The F&B income forms part of the ACL group accounts and that group now forms part of the London Wasps Holdings group accounts
Do Compass also supply the F@B and therefore IEC/ACL pay them directly for that?
If so, Compass would make twice, on mark-up to IEC, and then whatever markup that IEC adds on?
I know that IEC was incorporated into ACL a couple of years ago(which accounts I think for the doubled turnover of ACL), but don't know if IEC figures are shown seperately from ACL's within the group accounts to show P/L etc.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
But they received the lease assignment fee that related to a 7 year period. They either show a huge profit in 2008 and lower profits or losses since or they allocate quite legitimately to the 7 year period to reflect more accurately what the deal with G Casino was. The profits treatment is correct in my opinion. The profits argument is a pointless circle started by others for their own reasons. You can look at it year by year or just look at the period either way the 2016 balance sheet ends up in the same place
The real question is that the lease write down does not equate to positive cashflow each year after 2008 and that puts pressure on ACL because they have paid out what they received years ago
it will run out in 2016 accounts. But if I am right in the 2017 accounts will show rents from G Casino that compensate to some degree
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
IEC produce their own accounts. Those accounts are included in the ACL group accounts. The IEC turnover forms part of the ACL group turnover. It looks like nearly all IEC direct costs and administrative costs are derived from ACL (as holding co) and Compass. So both ACL & Compass take a "cut" as to who supplies the purchases for resale I would think it Compass source it but cant say for certain
Basic group accounting means if an item is a sale/income by ACL to IEC (or reverse looking at it IEC has a purchase from ACL) then when putting the Group accounts together the IEC purchase contras the ACL sale and the effect is nil in the group accounts. Group accounts are designed to show the external trading (sales/purchases) not internal charges
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lordsummerisle
Well-Known Member
Just thought it was strange with all the previous trumpeting of doubled turnover for ACL that it didn't seem to be mentioned that it was because IEC turnover became added to ACL turnover.
How was it accounted for before? As Compass paid £4million for 23% of IEC to ACL, then the services offered by ACL must surely have been an ACL company of some sort previously?
This must be a right pain in the arse for you, you come on to do football stuff, then spend all your time answering accounts questions because it's your day job.
If people kept asking me about aircraft when all I wanted to do was slag off Fleck or something, I'd be well pissed off!
Nick
Administrator
To be fair Fleck does seem a bit plane. Maybe he should be out on the wing? He certainly needs to do something to get us off the ground.
dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
If you want to slag off Fleck. Then I would prefer if you discussed squawking signals from cessnas. Flecks quality.
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stupot07
Well-Known Member
Yes fleck is quality - average quality.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors
duffer
Well-Known Member
Yes fleck is quality - average quality.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors
Nowt wrong with being average. Half the people (and players) that I know are below average.
Malaka
Well-Known Member
A I like the thought of SISU buying half the ricoh from Wasps, going on past evidence SISU are not the sort people I would want to do business with. Equally if I was a bank I wouldn't lend them anything either They would have to pay in cash up front if I was building a stadium for them.
Nonleagueherewecome
Well-Known Member
ccfcway
Well-Known Member
who loves franchising ?
That would require, currently, a willing seller. I suspect that dragging Wasps in to a judicial review may cut across the willingness.
Calista
Well-Known Member
Just a thought guys, and I’m sure a crazy one. If Wasps sold (say) half the revenues of the Ricoh to CCFC for an annual fee, that annual fee would still be an income for Wasps from their stadium wouldn’t it, and presumably accepted by the RFU as such for revenue/spending purposes.
At the same time, CCFC would have a substantial revenue (not profit, mind) of their own for the Football League’s FFP would they not?
We give them a pound and they give us the pound back. Bingo, we’ve both earned a quid. If anyone could pull it off, surely two hedge funds could.
Cue ridicule
At the same time, CCFC would have a substantial revenue (not profit, mind) of their own for the Football League’s FFP would they not?
We give them a pound and they give us the pound back. Bingo, we’ve both earned a quid. If anyone could pull it off, surely two hedge funds could.
Cue ridicule
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
Just a thought guys, and I’m sure a crazy one. If Wasps sold (say) half the revenues of the Ricoh to CCFC for an annual fee, that annual fee would still be an income for Wasps from their stadium wouldn’t it, and presumably accepted by the RFU as such for revenue/spending purposes.
At the same time, CCFC would have a substantial revenue (not profit, mind) of their own for the Football League’s FFP would they not?
We give them a pound and they give us the pound back. Bingo, we’ve both earned a quid. If anyone could pull it off, surely two hedge funds could.
Cue ridicule
Bloody nonsense
No I see what you're saying but I think ACL offered this to ccfc a few years ago it's called cross accounting is it? Something like that. That's all well and good and I think legally and in theory it could work if both parties wanted to but the trouble is sisu don't actually make any money from it and that's the stumbling block.
As you say you give a pound and make a pound back so it's just clever accounting really. It could be done yes to answer your question from what I know but it doesn't fit sisu's plan hence whey they rejected that idea a few years ago.