Details of Wasps' Ricoh Arena deal with council revealed (7 Viewers)

[wingy]

Noggin, if you'd be willing to put money into the Wasps/ACL deal then I'd say you'd got a bigger appetite for risk than you realise.

I'm talking equity here, Noggin, equity! A rising tide lifts all boats etc. - I'll stick our pitch on YouTube for you.

You're sounding like one of those Nigerian emails now duffer

 

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[torchomatic]

Can't remember all the details myself. I remember his saying £13.4 million and 20 year term. So hardly, new and exclusive from t he CT.

I'll see if the original tweet is still on twitter.

Don't know to be honest Torch. I seem to remember he said it was over a shorter period but I thought he was quoted as saying that CCC had written off £1m of the loan which is very different to Wasps paying off £1m up front

 

[duffer]

You're sounding like one of those Nigerian emails now duffer

Funnily enough I had a huge win on the Russian state lottery just the other day, but currency controls mean that I can't get the money out of the country. If you could just send me your bank details...

 

[Noggin]

Noggin, if you'd be willing to put money into the Wasps/ACL deal then I'd say you'd got a bigger appetite for risk than you realise.

I'm confident that wasps knew it could take a few years to get a foothold and have taken this on knowing that so I don't really believe there is any chance of ACL failing in the next 3 years. After 3 years you have received 40% of your initial investment back. At this point should ACL fail and be unable to get a buyer and the lease ends up with the council They only need to get about 8 million for the lease for me to get all my money back, since they were able to get 5.77m for acl with a 14m loan attached I really do believe they would be able to sell it for 8 mill especially as I don't believe the football club will have anywhere else to go and I think wasps got a good deal thanks to sisus distressing, even if they don't manage to sell it for the full amount you'd get most back. I think the risk is small when you are getting a 2.5 times return on your investment over 20 years.

investing in a start up company obviously has much greater upside, you could be the next google and that 10k investment would have made me a billionaire, but the risk is massive compared loaning ACL secured money

 

[stupot07]

Thats £187 per person if she said wasps would bring 6mill a game she was clearly talking nonsense.

It's actually £214, as there were only 22k at that match.


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[oldskyblue58]

Just a couple of thoughts

Could the interest rate be higher to encourage Wasps to finance it elsewhere. At the moment because they do not have good financials and the risk is raised by the change of location that might not be possible. But if they get decent financials for a couple of years you may find they refinance it at that point.

How did Wasps raise the 5.54m in the first place?

There is no cast iron risk free investment. Look at the Councils that invested through Icelandic banks for example. What this does do is to put 19m income in to the council budget to spend in the City over the next 20 years with the caveat that Wasps have to be able to pay it of course. That's an improvement on what was certainly if it comes off.

Does it change the JR cases? I wouldn't think it has any impact on the first case because the judge is only going to look at the information, decisions and actions that took place January 2013. The second case I would think will revolve around whether it is a new loan to ACL (yes ACL not Wasps because that is where the legal agreement is and the charge that secures it) or whether it is just a restructuring of the original loan and that the original loan still remains. One thing that must be the case is that ACL now owes Wasps £1m for the payment made off the loan October 2014

 

[Noggin]

Can't remember all the details myself. I remember his saying £13.4 million and 20 year term. So hardly, new and exclusive from t he CT.

I'll see if the original tweet is still on twitter.

those aren't the interesting bits of information though. The fact they get the same return for half the duration is a huge piece of news and improves the deal massively.

 

[Noggin]

It's actually £214, as there were only 22k at that match.


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I was just refering to 6mill per game and using the best case scenario of a sell out, but yes the less fans they get the even more ridiculous the numbers become, but it's clearly fantasy in the best case scenario.

That said I'd hadn't taken into account the jobs it creates but still it's nonsense even then.

 

[oldskyblue58]

Have to agree Noggin ..... I certainly wasn't aware that was the case about the same interest total in half the time until today

Would be interesting to reconcile why Fisher thinks the thing is unviable with why Robertson/Eastwood believe it is and are prepared to increase ACL interest costs to do it

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

I wouldn't disagree with that. £6m per game is preposterous. I know the Leicester game is moving towards sell-out. If - big if - but if the Toulon game was at The Ricoh, it'd sell-out twice over. Saracens will be well-populated, as will Harlequins. The interesting season will be next season. Which new players Wasps can attract - bearing in mind much business is already done - with their new financial landscape, and how may fans continue to go, with the attractiveness of novelty gone. One thing is for sure, it won't be £6m per game

Would it really sell out twice over?

The Leinster game was described as a champions league match vs Real Madrid in a winner takes all scenario and an expected sell out by a Wasps fans on here and it was nowhere close to a sell out even with a fairly big Irish following.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Would it really sell out twice over?

The Leinster game was described as a champions league match vs Real Madrid in a winner takes all scenario and an expected sell out by a Wasps fans on here and it was nowhere close to a sell out even with a fairly big Irish following.

Well, twice-over would, perhaps be a bit of poetic license; but Toulon are like the Harlem Globetrotters of world rugby. They truly are the Real Madrid. I've stated I'll not watch Wasps at the Ricoh, but I'd be sorely tempted at the prospect of seeing Toulon. I'd hold-out, but temptation would be sitting on my right shoulder!

 

[italiahorse]

no paying the lease premium removed all rental obligations. that was in some council minutes i found years ago.

It was one of the facts that came out the JR.
They had a choice to pay a yearly rent or the lease premium and a rental based on profits as above.

 

[italiahorse]

Interesting, never knew that

The actually details are in the JR judgement.

http://www.matrixlaw.co.uk/uploads/other/01_07_2014_01_48_11_01.07.14.pdf

Paragraph 9 iii

 

[italiahorse]

I suspect Wasps will be relying on CCFC and its supporters to subsidise them and many of our fans will be happy about it.

I think it's the other way round at the moment with a rent of £100K a year and access to some revenues.
It's a ticking time bomb for us if we don't get the crowds back.

 

[skybluericoh]

I do not pretend to understand the £££ within business contracts, however I would expect that Due dliligence has been carried out, I thoght SISU had done this before though so could be wrong again. But if WASPs were to go under with a 250 year lease they would be a viable purchase for someone else? If not the council still own the free hold and would aquire the lease back as security. Less anything paid back any loss could be covered by flattening it and build houses. How much would that bring in?

As a council tax payer, I'm not kept awake at nights worring if this is a risky loan or not.

 

[dongonzalos]

Thats £187 per person if she said wasps would bring 6mill a game she was clearly talking nonsense.

You are forgetting the multiplier effect again.
When someone says a match brought 6 million into the local economy they don't mean every fan combined spent 6 million in total

 

[stupot07]

You are forgetting the multiplier effect again.
When someone says a match brought 6 million into the local economy they don't mean every fan combined spent 6 million in total

And through the multiplier effect our game against rochdale on Saturday brought in c£1.7m.


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[dongonzalos]

And through the multiplier effect our game against rochdale on Saturday brought in c£1.7m.


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The wasps game at the Ricoh
Excuse my lack of knowledge but it didn't really interest me.

Who were they playing?
Where did the fans travel from?
Would many of them needed to use the local hotels?
Was it quite a one off match special occasion where some would have made a night of it?
Meal, shopping the following day or the day itself. Visit the Cathedral.
Would it have brought people in selling Merchandise
Was it on television anywhere, did it bring in reporters camera crews ect
Where did they stay.
What did these people spend their money on? What happened to that money that they spent?
Did people sell car parking spaces?
What did they do with that money?
Did the local pubs restaurants ect put on extra staff for the night?
What did they do with the extra money they earn that night.
Did they spend it in a local shop or a local pub?
Was all of the above the same for Coventry Rochdale?

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

Well, twice-over would, perhaps be a bit of poetic license; but Toulon are like the Harlem Globetrotters of world rugby. They truly are the Real Madrid. I've stated I'll not watch Wasps at the Ricoh, but I'd be sorely tempted at the prospect of seeing Toulon. I'd hold-out, but temptation would be sitting on my right shoulder!

Fair enough, I know nothing about club Rugby. I expressed my scepticism when I was told it was verly likely Leinster would sell out and I was right, respectable attendance but not even close to a sell out and I'd think the same about this as well. I expect it would just be the 20k bandwagoners again and 95% of them wouldn't be able to name a single opposition player.

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

I think it's the other way round at the moment with a rent of £100K a year and access to some revenues.
It's a ticking time bomb for us if we don't get the crowds back.

Don't think so. Wasps attendances since they arrive 28k, 15k, 23k, 9k up from there average of about 6k, add onto that all the revenue take from the football there is no doubt that the club and the people of Coventry are subsidising what was a declining Rugby club. To make out its the Rugby club who are finanically supporting the football side is something only you could come up with.

Hilarious how you are trying to twist it around now making out as if CCFC have got a fantastic deal at the Ricoh and its Wasps who are the ones who have been hard done by and being screwed over. I guess you want us to pay 1 million a year with no revenues so Wasps don't lose out.

You really are something else.

 

[wingy]

The wasps game at the Ricoh
Excuse my lack of knowledge but it didn't really interest me.

Who were they playing?
Where did the fans travel from?
Would many of them needed to use the local hotels?
Was it quite a one off match special occasion where some would have made a night of it?
Meal, shopping the following day or the day itself. Visit the Cathedral.
Would it have brought people in selling Merchandise
Was it on television anywhere, did it bring in reporters camera crews ect
Where did they stay.
What did these people spend their money on? What happened to that money that they spent?
Did people sell car parking spaces?
What did they do with that money?
Did the local pubs restaurants ect put on extra staff for the night?
What did they do with the extra money they earn that night.
Did they spend it in a local shop or a local pub?
Was all of the above the same for Coventry Rochdale?

You bar room economists!!
When will Interest rates go up and M3 shrink Don?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

The interesting season will be next season. Which new players Wasps can attract - bearing in mind much business is already done - with their new financial landscape, and how may fans continue to go, with the attractiveness of novelty gone.

To further this a little, and to move towards WaspsTalk, to me the interesting season will be whenever Wasps hit a sticky patch - they only scraped through this season, the likes of Bristol have shown being (relatively) monied doesn't automatically mean success on the pitch, and without the depth of fans who have a bond beyond 'just watching top class rugby' there's little to encourage them to keep going.

At that stage, is there a cliff that gates drop over?

I'd suggest the answer to that is 'yes', I'd also happily bet a reasonable wedge this move doesn't work out long-term (i.e. within the next 5-10 seasons), but alas I'm not convinced my interest would be sustained enough for me to remember I'd made any bet, win or lose!

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Seriously, faced with an empty pitch, what else would you expect them to do? :facepalm:

Either: Play the hard ball with the football club until it returned;
Offer a top deal to the football club;
Offer to other sporting teams in the city;
Invite bids to change use from sports stadium.

As we've seen with Rushden, Wasps not the only option. The final option I've given above would cause much throwing up of hands. Personally, I fear the long-term damage to a Coventry identity will be more with a passing fad, then the nuclear option. Again... we shall see. Maybe it's me, who is living in the past, but it's not just me either, plenty of respected thinkers would agree

 

[tisza]

I'm curious are rugby fans as fickle as football fans? as a lot of these people attending the wasps games are rugby (rather than wasps ) fans would a run of poor results change the crowds drastically?

 

[wingy]

Just a couple of thoughts

Could the interest rate be higher to encourage Wasps to finance it elsewhere. At the moment because they do not have good financials and the risk is raised by the change of location that might not be possible. But if they get decent financials for a couple of years you may find they refinance it at that point.

How did Wasps raise the 5.54m in the first place?

There is no cast iron risk free investment. Look at the Councils that invested through Icelandic banks for example. What this does do is to put 19m income in to the council budget to spend in the City over the next 20 years with the caveat that Wasps have to be able to pay it of course. That's an improvement on what was certainly if it comes off.

Does it change the JR cases? I wouldn't think it has any impact on the first case because the judge is only going to look at the information, decisions and actions that took place January 2013. The second case I would think will revolve around whether it is a new loan to ACL (yes ACL not Wasps because that is where the legal agreement is and the charge that secures it) or whether it is just a restructuring of the original loan and that the original loan still remains. One thing that must be the case is that ACL now owes Wasps £1m for the payment made off the loan October 2014

I was wondering more around the fact CCC thought HIGGS share was overvalued by SISU
Had taking the 20 yr option reduced the Interest by half, less money to the CCC more potential for a bigger immediate settlement to them yes, but also HIGGS
Too outlandish, maybe

 

[tisza]

Invite bids to change use [/QUOTE] we are told one of the other interested parties was a property developer

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I'm curious are rugby fans as fickle as football fans?

Unless those watching initially have all been attending either CRFC (charitably, let's include them), or Wasps at Wycombe, then the change in gates suggests an unequivocal yes.

It's not like Coventry hasn't offered the opportunity to watch a Rugby team with a proud heritage and tradition, after all. It's also been a team that may have hit hard times over the past 25 years, but has still had the occasional moment in the sun.

 

[tisza]

but isn't the difference are playing the top sides domestically and from europe regularly?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

but isn't the difference are playing the top sides domestically and from europe regularly?

Fickleness, then.

 

[wingy]

Unless those watching initially have all been attending either CRFC (charitably, let's include them), or Wasps at Wycombe, then the change in gates suggests an unequivocal yes.

It's not like Coventry hasn't offered the opportunity to watch a Rugby team with a proud heritage and tradition, after all. It's also been a team that may have hit hard times over the past 25 years, but has still had the occasional moment in the sun.

Their moment In the Sun appears to have been getting rid of two appalling owners
Now comes the resurgence
I'm assured they as fans were as divided as us until this change
I can smell that synergy and await our owners removal or acceptance of utter failure and no other escape

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Their moment In the Sun appears to have been getting rid of two appalling owners
Now comes the resurgence
I'm assured they as fans were as divided as us until this change
I can smell that synergy and await our owners removal or acceptance of utter failure and no other escape

Let's just hope we don't find (Glasgow) Rangers parachuted in just as that happens!

 

[SkyblueBazza]

It looks shabby there is a lot of rust and is still unfinished in places like as you come up the steps from the a444 mud with weeds growing through and there has been a leak on the front that has been there since it opened (used to drive me mad but now I don't care). Inside it was finished on the cheap so is freezing cold and now all these awful looking signs are appearing trying to some how justify the egg chasers being there. Having said all of this I would be happy if it was ours (not Sisu's).

All I would say on this is that the Ricoh hasn't anything near the same "cosy feel" that MK Don's stadium does.

PUSB

 

[stupot07]

The wasps game at the Ricoh
Excuse my lack of knowledge but it didn't really interest me.

Who were they playing?
Where did the fans travel from?
Would many of them needed to use the local hotels?
Was it quite a one off match special occasion where some would have made a night of it?
Meal, shopping the following day or the day itself. Visit the Cathedral.
Would it have brought people in selling Merchandise
Was it on television anywhere, did it bring in reporters camera crews ect
Where did they stay.
What did these people spend their money on? What happened to that money that they spent?
Did people sell car parking spaces?
What did they do with that money?
Did the local pubs restaurants ect put on extra staff for the night?
What did they do with the extra money they earn that night.
Did they spend it in a local shop or a local pub?
Was all of the above the same for Coventry Rochdale?

Ironically they played Northampton........I'm not convinced either them nor those from London would have stayed in numbers in hotels, bars, down the colly, etc. Nowhere near £6m.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/6577065.stm

And actually as wasps become embedded in the area, it will be no different to us - relative local supporters, a few driving up and a few away fans.


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[duffer]

I'm curious are rugby fans as fickle as football fans? as a lot of these people attending the wasps games are rugby (rather than wasps ) fans would a run of poor results change the crowds drastically?

Good question. I think the CRFC crowd are probably well established now and have seen more bad times than good. I don't think crowds there will change overmuch if promotion fades away, but then you're only looking at 1,200 - 1,500 typically.

For Wasps I'd contend that the opposite probably applies - the home support isn't established, and if the product isn't great it won't be any surprise to me to see numbers dwindle quickly. Even if it is good, I think numbers will fall off, even top class rugby simply isn't a massively supported game. Before MMM jumps in though, you'll always get a decent turnout for big European games and local derbies against Leicester and Northampton, driven by away fans as much as home ones though I'd argue.

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

Ironically they played Northampton........I'm not convinced either them nor those from London would have stayed in numbers in hotels, bars, down the colly, etc. Nowhere near £6m.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/6577065.stm

And actually as wasps become embedded in the area, it will be no different to us - relative local supporters, a few driving up and a few away fans.


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If you can end up with a successful football club and a successful rugby within Coventry then I guess you could say economically it was a success or made sense. If it leads to either CCFC declining further or moving out of Coventry then the Rugby just replaces the contribution to local economy which the football brought, and I think its fair to say a successful CCFC would be worth way more to the economy than Wasps.