What's to sell (9 Viewers)

[stupot07]

It was Stupot, buy the Ricoh and go from there. Wasps have shown everyone how easy it was if you play with a straight bat. Sisu even fucked that up and we are now only left with a few nails needing to go into our coffin because the fuckers are so inept.

Unfortunately the ricoh has gone forever, even noggin acknowledges that in another post, so I'm referring to a new owner now, rather than sisu.

I've always said they should have bought the ricoh, slashed the wage bill and took relegation earlier, we could have rebuilt something like southampton, rather than the route of trying to fluke a promotion,

I'm not even convinced they would have make money had they got the Ricoh, given the £40-50m they have already wasted on us.


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[stupot07]

I wasn't talking about getting back to the premiership, attempting that is a massive gamble and incredibly expensive. I was clear in what I meant, buy the club now in league 1 for what it's worth (which is not far of nothing) with shit attendance, hardly any sponsorship, hardly any merchandising income, hardly any corporate attendance, with the club having terrible morale, no trust between fan base and owners. Fix the problems, sell a couple of years later for a profit. This is of course the sort of things hedge funds do, take a distressed business, fix it and sell it when it's worth more.

I know what you mean, but I still don't think you would sell it at a profit, given the cash needed to be pumped in to a) get us out of this league and b) tread water in the championship.. There's only so much sponsorship, corporate and ticket revenue you can make. Without the Ricoh, they will not make a profit, at the end of the day they will be buying a brand, a training ground, some balls, and liabilities.


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[The Gentleman]

Unfortunately the ricoh has gone forever, even noggin acknowledges that in another post, so I'm referring to a new owner now, rather than sisu.

I've always said they should have bought the ricoh, slashed the wage bill and took relegation earlier, we could have rebuilt something like southampton, rather than the route of trying to fluke a promotion,

I'm not even convinced they would have make money had they got the Ricoh, given the £40-50m they have already wasted on us.


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You mention Southampton and there is no reason why we couldn't have done that with some of the young players we have had and let go along with a good manager buying well too. Look at Southampton now and are listed in the top 40 richest clubs in the world. Look at Bournemouth too, i hope they get there for Callum if nothing else but again shows what can happen if Sisu could of done it right.

 

[lordsummerisle]

You mention Southampton and there is no reason why we couldn't have done that with some of the young players we have had and let go along with a good manager buying well too. Look at Southampton now and are listed in the top 40 richest clubs in the world. Look at Bournemouth too, i hope they get there for Callum if nothing else but again shows what can happen if Sisu could of done it right.

We've had Callum Wilson, who as yet has to play in the top league.

Southampton? Bale, Walcott, Shaw, Chambers, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Lallana just off the top of my head.

 

[dongonzalos]

The 'potential' windfall of reaching the premier league in only 3 years. That idea sold to Sisu's investors who have no idea about football.

That's my wild guess anyway. What else would be keeping them around?

That's the only way they could make money again in my opinion.
Spend the 20 million on the squad instead. Of a stadium add that to the 40 million debt. Get them to within touching distance of the premiership
Sell the dream for 60 million.
Break even walk away a very relieved woman

 

[robbiethemole]

Even if a buyer could be found and even IF Sisu were willing to sell, what price would be reasonable for what's left? Ryton, maybe £1m that they bought it back for, £1-1.5m for any players left in contract and maybe £1m for the golden share and any goodwill that's left over. I can't see Sisu going for those figures, and surely any buyer would look at the top of L2 to pick up a promotion seeking team rather than a basket case team with no ground. You could probably get Shrewsbury for about that figure along with their own ground and any promotion payments, wouldn't they be a better buy??

 

[DaleM]

Look back a few years when Newcastle were where we are now. Appointed Keegan, splashed a bit of cash , played fantastic football and got the promotions back up to very nearly the pinnacle of the game.

It's not impossible with the right owner, right manager and right players . Newcastle used to go all out for the win and played with the philosphy of scoring more goals than their opponents. Exciting football , not the defensive shite being served up to us.

If we were in the PL would anyone give a shit about the pie money or having to pay rent ?

Get the right manager (Which imo we had in Robins), stop selling the family silver and put some fucking cash in and get us back up there.

The rewards for getting there are immense .

 

[dongonzalos]

So reading this thread the sky blues trust are right in their stance it's what most the fans want

 

[ccfcway]

I believe ccfcway knocked this little gem on the head a few days ago. Until they sell up, they do not need to register their losses. When they do, the loss of credibility on SISU to handle finance will be huge.

this . Make the club wash its face and take the management fee. that way, no more outgoings from a group perspective, but a constant income. The asset stays on the book, so has a value. Sell it, and the value has gone, as well having to deal with the debt.

no reason whatsoever that they would or should sell in the short term.

 

[hill83]

That's the only way they could make money again in my opinion.
Spend the 20 million on the squad instead. Of a stadium add that to the 40 million debt. Get them to within touching distance of the premiership
Sell the dream for 60 million.
Break even walk away a very relieved woman

Dongo and Hill. Sitting in a tree

 

[The Gentleman]

We've had Callum Wilson, who as yet has to play in the top league.

Southampton? Bale, Walcott, Shaw, Chambers, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Lallana just off the top of my head.

Seeing Callum this season has told me he has every chance of doing it in the top flight. We had Dan Crowley when he was a kid and is a player you could of built a whole team around. Ryan Haynes could well turn out to be a good winger and Maddison is a good prospect too. Now you might say no to the last 2 but we don't know what the future holds and I did also say buy well to. All I am saying is that there is no reason why we couldn't of done that. I'm sure that people said that to Southampton a few years ago "nah, you've got no chance".

 

[wingy]

Even if a buyer could be found and even IF Sisu were willing to sell, what price would be reasonable for what's left? Ryton, maybe £1m that they bought it back for, £1-1.5m for any players left in contract and maybe £1m for the golden share and any goodwill that's left over. I can't see Sisu going for those figures, and surely any buyer would look at the top of L2 to pick up a promotion seeking team rather than a basket case team with no ground. You could probably get Shrewsbury for about that figure along with their own ground and any promotion payments, wouldn't they be a better buy??

Port Vale were to Norman Smurthwaite
What a name

 

[ccfcway]

Seeing Callum this season has told me he has every chance of doing it in the top flight. We had Dan Crowley when he was a kid and is a player you could of built a whole team around. Ryan Haynes could well turn out to be a good winger and Maddison is a good prospect too. Now you might say no to the last 2 but we don't know what the future holds and I did also say buy well to. All I am saying is that there is no reason why we couldn't of done that. I'm sure that people said that to Southampton a few years ago "nah, you've got no chance".

selling wilson v keeping wilson isnt the issue.

its what we did / didnt do with that money is the issue

 

[wingy]

Seeing Callum this season has told me he has every chance of doing it in the top flight. We had Dan Crowley when he was a kid and is a player you could of built a whole team around. Ryan Haynes could well turn out to be a good winger and Maddison is a good prospect too. Now you might say no to the last 2 but we don't know what the future holds and I did also say buy well to. All I am saying is that there is no reason why we couldn't of done that. I'm sure that people said that to Southampton a few years ago "nah, you've got no chance".

Who were the managers at Saints when that crop came through

 

[Gazolba]

'what exactly have they got to sell?

Some hot air and some cold sweat.

 

[aviles]

I think King of Kings hit the nail on the head with point 4. The money if you reach the promised land.

I hate SISU as much as the next man (as long as the next man isn't RFC, of course), however, maybe they do have a plan. Maybe they are trying to make us self-sufficient - releasing players they think are/were overpaid, getting players on short contracts so they aren't saddled with large pay-offs - and as soon as they reach that point they then make us live within our means, but try and target promotion. If you read that sentence with a business head on (and do your best to ignore the name SISU) then it kind of makes sense. Sure, there are a lot of things SISU have done wrong, things they've done that have pissed us off, but if that is their plan then in a perverse way I kind of agree with it. The trouble is, their communication skills are so lacking that it's impossible to know if that is their plan. If they came out and told us in plain English - not their 5 point plan that reads like it was a 5 pint plan, written after a night at the pub - then maybe they'd get some of us in agreement. Although after the deception and misdirection they've thrown out over the years we wouldn't know whether they were telling the truth anyway. Oh sod it. SISU OUT.

Why give SP a 4 year contract then !

 

[lordsummerisle]

Who were the managers at Saints when that crop came through

Don't think the manager at Southampton is a factor to be honest Wingy, they just seem to have a very well run acadamy, and have done for years, pretty much a constant conveyor belt of real talent.

Obviously good coaching, scouting at the youth level a major factor, but also becomes a self-fulfilling success due to more of the decent players wanting to go there as know that they have a good chance of success.

Our academy(despite many going on about our great youth players) is light-years behind and has been for years and years, right back into the Premier League days.

 

[lordsummerisle]

Seeing Callum this season has told me he has every chance of doing it in the top flight. We had Dan Crowley when he was a kid and is a player you could of built a whole team around. Ryan Haynes could well turn out to be a good winger and Maddison is a good prospect too. Now you might say no to the last 2 but we don't know what the future holds and I did also say buy well to. All I am saying is that there is no reason why we couldn't of done that. I'm sure that people said that to Southampton a few years ago "nah, you've got no chance".

We never had Dan Crowley did we?

Should have done, but think he went to the Villa Academy, and even then poached from them by Arsenal.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Southampton benefit from having a large catchment area and relatively little competition for the best young players. Yes, Portsmouth is nearby but they didn't invest in youth (hence their current position).

 

[italiahorse]

And if we had new owners? Would they do it all for free?

You seem to think that SISU are the only owners/hedge fund that do this kind of thing... when in reality it happened before with our previous owners, and will happen again in the future.

No. I'm saying they are just happy to take this fee. Other owners I would say would also like to see a successful football team.

 

[Ian1779]

No. I'm saying they are just happy to take this fee. Other owners I would say would also like to see a successful football team.

A new owner would still take a fee... but I do agree with your point.

A more successful football team would increase revenue and probably increase the fee - but if we were a successful football team I imagine we would not worry about that so much.

 

[The Gentleman]

We never had Dan Crowley did we?

Should have done, but think he went to the Villa Academy, and even then poached from them by Arsenal.

Think he passed through Coventry's academy before Villa. He was at the same secondary school as my daughters and one is the same age as him. I'm sure I heard somewhere that Arsenal paid £1 million for him and if true not quite poached at that young age.

 

[The Gentleman]

Southampton benefit from having a large catchment area and relatively little competition for the best young players. Yes, Portsmouth is nearby but they didn't invest in youth (hence their current position).

So you're saying that areas with lots of clubs around struggle to get the best young players at their clubs, how does it work in the north West and London then?

All I'm saying is that if you have a good youth set with a good pedigree of producing players, which we had, then why couldn't we have done what Southampton did (obviously with the right owners).

 

[Godiva]

They just keep taking there £2M a year management fees. It's a living !!!

I think the concept of management fee's has been explained some 100 times.
It's fair enough that you do not understand it, but then please stop talking about it. You are spreading false information and I don't think that is your intention.

 

[fernandopartridge]

So you're saying that areas with lots of clubs around struggle to get the best young players at their clubs, how does it work in the north West and London then?

All I'm saying is that if you have a good youth set with a good pedigree of producing players, which we had, then why couldn't we have done what Southampton did (obviously with the right owners).

What pedigree? How many players have we produced that have gone on to sustain careers at the highest level? How many have even been capped?

CCFC youth development seems to fall apart when players reach 17-18, not sure what it is.

 

[albatross]

In most business sales there is usually an amount added for goodwill but as it's SISU selling...

I believe SISU actually wrote off much of the good will in the published (about 10M) and it appeared as a charge. I'm Not an accountant but usually these things are written down over time not taken as single charges on the balance sheet. It would certainly make the club look more loss making that in may have been as this charge does not involve real pound notes.

But if you are trying to make a company appear distressed prior to suing for damages its a sizeable chunk of cash to add to the debit side of your balance sheet.

 

[albatross]

Taken fromhttps://aprisonofmeasuredtime.wordpress.com/2013/04/29/coventry-city-and-sisu-capital-60-million-in-debt/


SBSL Ltd have made an allowance in the accounts for an expense listed as an impairment in the value of the Goodwill. Goodwill is an asset that appears on the Balance Sheet and as stated in the accounts in normally written off over 10 to 20 years. It is unclear what part of the business that relates to. The goodwill is showing at cost in June 2010 as £13,557,543. The impairment charge is showing as a cost in the year to 2011 as £6,415,343 which contributes to the losses showing. This may relate to a payment due to be made to a former director, Geoffrey Robinson, should the club have successfully return to the premiership by 2013. The value of goodwill has dropped from £13 million to £2,882,587 in the space of two years, ensuring that losses incurred are maximised. There is no immediate cash cost to the company for this ‘impairment’ – it is simply shifting sums around to increase costs and lower profits/increases losses. So, both CCFC Holdings Ltd and SBSL Ltd show increased losses in the accounts due to writing down the value of assets, lowering the values of both companies.

 

[The Gentleman]

What pedigree? How many players have we produced that have gone on to sustain careers at the highest level? How many have even been capped?

CCFC youth development seems to fall apart when players reach 17-18, not sure what it is.

Remind me again where I said highest level or capped players? I think I said of producing players.

You say that Southampton benefit from a large catchment area, so if that's the case and they have always had that, why aren't they a top team with the likes of Man U and Liverpool who traditionally have always had good youth set ups but in far more competitive areas for players? Don't use their recent high position as an example as most of that team are now signings.

The reason I used Southampton is because they have done it once with the players like Walcott, Bale, Chamberlain and Lalana coming through recently around a similar time. My point was with a crop of good young players why couldn't we.

 

[Sky Blue Dal]

And if we had new owners? Would they do it all for free?

You seem to think that SISU are the only owners/hedge fund that do this kind of thing... when in reality it happened before with our previous owners, and will happen again in the future.

Yes agree with you about all owners do it BUT majority of them are running the business successfully that's the beef I have with it that ours ain't.

Have they earned it fairly... No!!

 

[fernandopartridge]

Remind me again where I said highest level or capped players? I think I said of producing players.

You say that Southampton benefit from a large catchment area, so if that's the case and they have always had that, why aren't they a top team with the likes of Man U and Liverpool who traditionally have always had good youth set ups but in far more competitive areas for players? Don't use their recent high position as an example as most of that team are now signings.

The reason I used Southampton is because they have done it once with the players like Walcott, Bale, Chamberlain and Lalana coming through recently around a similar time. My point was with a crop of good young players why couldn't we.

You said we had a good pedigree of producing players. Good pedigree implies decent players, not mostly lower league like we have.

Perhaps Southampton have recently invested in the infrastructure? Tbf and it contradicts me a bit but no teams sustain production of good young players, United haven't produced much since the golden crop. Liverpool neither, West Ham had a good crop but not much since...

 

[Godiva]

And if we had new owners? Would they do it all for free?

You seem to think that SISU are the only owners/hedge fund that do this kind of thing... when in reality it happened before with our previous owners, and will happen again in the future.

Yes agree with you about all owners do it BUT majority of them are running the business successfully that's the beef I have with it that ours ain't.

Have they earned it fairly... No!!

Just putting it straight. Sisu have not taken out any money for themselves. They are paid by the investors to manage their (the investors) money.
So forget the term management fee - it's a complete different beast used when SBS&L shared bank account with CCFC H and CCFC L.

As Sisu haven't invested any of their own money (as far as we know), no interests have been paid to them. It also seems that most (if not all) interests have been accrued to the debts and not paid out the creditors.

In the words of OSB:

SISU Capital make their money on the administration of their clients investments so they would take a slice of that pot not directly from SBS&L. However the knock on from that is that the investors funds have a bigger gap to make up each year in any sale of their investment just to stand still.

So Sisu don't take anything directly on the face of it, but the loan to ARVO bares interest that is at least part paid each year.

 

[Sky Blue Dal]

Just putting it straight. Sisu have not taken out any money for themselves. They are paid by the investors to manage their (the investors) money.
So forget the term management fee - it's a complete different beast used when SBS&L shared bank account with CCFC H and CCFC L.

As Sisu haven't invested any of their own money (as far as we know), no interests have been paid to them. It also seems that most (if not all) interests have been accrued to the debts and not paid out the creditors.

In the words of OSB:

Thanks for clearing that.. It makes all sense now.

 

[wingy]

Just putting it straight. Sisu have not taken out any money for themselves. They are paid by the investors to manage their (the investors) money.
So forget the term management fee - it's a complete different beast used when SBS&L shared bank account with CCFC H and CCFC L.

As Sisu haven't invested any of their own money (as far as we know), no interests have been paid to them. It also seems that most (if not all) interests have been accrued to the debts and not paid out the creditors.

In the words of OSB:

I'm fairly sure there have at points been Interest taken
Also someone pumped £600K in as equity and have taken a stake due to it
Wonder who that may have been

 

[Godiva]

I'm fairly sure there have at points been Interest taken

It's not really 100% clear if interest has been paid out at any time - but could well be. The point is that even interests are not going to sisu, but to those who loan the club money (like ARVO).

Interest is the price of money.
Any loan to any lender is given on the basis of the certainty of getting the money back. The more likely it is that the loan is paid back, the less is charged in interest.
I would argue that the club's credit rating is pretty poor, so interest rate is probably quite high.

 

[wingy]

It's not really 100% clear if interest has been paid out at any time - but could well be. The point is that even interests are not going to sisu, but to those who loan the club money (like ARVO).

Interest is the price of money.
Any loan to any lender is given on the basis of the certainty of getting the money back. The more likely it is that the loan is paid back, the less is charged in interest.
I would argue that the club's credit rating is pretty poor, so interest rate is probably quite high.

I'm kind of guessing around 10%,sure I've seen circa £1.5 mentioned /posted in accounts
I think the £600 K I mentioned Is personal money or why would ARVO take equity for what It already has 100% of