£61m of debt wiped out in latest CCFC accounts (7 Viewers)

[tisza]

No the credit rating at company house shows wasps holdings at the same risk rating as Otium - unless you are saying les Reid writes for company house? Negative equity is £22 million now isn't it?

not really sure what your point is. aren't both companies debts mainly to their owners?
wasps took positive steps to improve their situation we need to do the same. wasps couldn't do a deal in Wycombe so adapted. Club couldn't do a deal here so need to adapt.
I don't see how otium's negative equity effects a new stadium build or their ability to rent the new stadium.

 

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[Grendel]

Credit ratings mean nothing. No more than an indicator. And even less than that if the business model is changing. They take a view on the last set of audited accounts; which can itself be out of date by the time they're filed. I've had what appear to be gilt-edged companies with a brilliant credit rating take my business for £200K; but equally we have some start ups to whom we shouldn't extend a credit line operating successful ledgers in excess of £500K. They really are pointless

So if Derek gets bored and wants his money back the credit rating means nothing?

 

[Gint11]

Most of this goes over my head but from what I understand, SISU have switched a debt into shares so to make this money back and/or more, they need to boost value meaning they now have something to lose. Might be wrong.


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[rondog1973]

Credit ratings mean nothing. No more than an indicator. And even less than that if the business model is changing. They take a view on the last set of audited accounts; which can itself be out of date by the time they're filed. I've had what appear to be gilt-edged companies with a brilliant credit rating take my business for £200K; but equally we have some start ups to whom we shouldn't extend a credit line operating successful ledgers in excess of £500K. They really are pointless

Yep. I've no savings, have always lived within my overdraft, and yet the bank are always flinging credit card offers at me due to my excellent credit score!

Not the same comparison, but an indicator of how these ratings are formulated. Bit like the FIFA World rankings really, that seem to think England are top 10 material.

 

[albatross]

So if Derek gets bored and wants his money back the credit rating means nothing?

but Derek is showing no signs of getting bored.. Same can be said for our owners if they decide to get bored...

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Same can be said for our owners if they decide to get bored...

Think that was Grendel's point.

 

[Intheknow]

So if Derek gets bored and wants his money back the credit rating means nothing?

Do you now agree that Richardson is the owner then?

 

[Jack Griffin]

Sisu seem to have disappeared, as has the football club in the latest 'family tree'.

They just manage investors money, they don't own the club.

 

[skybluetony176]

So if Derek gets bored and wants his money back the credit rating means nothing?

A 250 year lease of the Ricoh is worth more than the credit rating. I believe that's what is known as an asset. Something that SISU and the myriad of companies that make up CCFC don't have.

 

[Jack Griffin]

The football club is the company Otium.
Sisu never owned the club - they act on behalf of the shareholders.

No it is Sky Blue Sports & Leisure Ltd.

 

[Intheknow]

They just manage investors money, they don't own the club.

And therein I suspect lies the difference between the owners. Richardson seems to care about Wasps but Sisu seem to care about return to investors.

 

[Grendel]

A 250 year lease of the Ricoh is worth more than the credit rating. I believe that's what is known as an asset. Something that SISU and the myriad of companies that make up CCFC don't have.

Shame we were never offered it then.

So in your view they could sell tomorrow and make a financial killing?

 

[Grendel]

but Derek is showing no signs of getting bored.. Same can be said for our owners if they decide to get bored...

That's my point. Are you not very bright?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Richardson seems to care about Wasps .

Yup, his passion for their heritage and tradition is obvious, never mind their roots and origins.

 

[Grendel]

Do you now agree that Richardson is the owner then?

He is the main creditor. It's somewhat difficult to work out the shareholding structure of the Maltese hedge fund. Do you know it?

Out of interest why are you far more passionate defending wasps and it's ownership structure than anything else on here? Before you argue against that we can extract all your posting history if we have to.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Shame we were never offered it then.

So in your view they could sell tomorrow and make a financial killing?

Shame the football never asked for it. Intent on litigation and aggression instead.

They - like you thought the football club was 'the only deal in town', eh?

They, like you, were wrong.....

 

[skybluetony176]

Shame we were never offered it then.

So in your view they could sell tomorrow and make a financial killing?

Shame we never made a serious bid to buy it before Wasps come along, there was ample opportunity. Someone must have told SISU that they're the only show in town and SISU must have believed them.

I guess they could sell tomorrow if they so wished and make a profit but we both know that they won't.

 

[Intheknow]

Shame we were never offered it then.

So in your view they could sell tomorrow and make a financial killing?

Usually a landlord keeps approval rights over lease assignments.

 

[Intheknow]

He is the main creditor. It's somewhat difficult to work out the shareholding structure of the Maltese hedge fund. Do you know it?

Out of interest why are you far more passionate defending wasps and it's ownership structure than anything else on here? Before you argue against that we can extract all your posting history if we have to.

No passion, just not blind to facts and have my eyes open. You keep insisting there is a hedge fund, from what I read it is clear there is no Maltese hedge fund. From what I also read, Richardson is the owner.

By the way, do you believe the earth is flat or round?

 

[steveecov]

What a shame Wasps got Derek Richardson, and we got bloody Bryan.

 

[Hobo]

I haven't read all this thread so I am sorry if repeating. But when SISU were under pressure and Otium wasn't in the frame as owners, debt was going up by the the week if not by the day.

Nobody really ever believed it and most thought it was a paper debt. Most thought it was around 20-28 M.

so with the Fa Cup returns, Wilson n Clarke sales plus others and drastic budget cuts.......it appears we are back at realistic levels.

This is why they can't be trusted, they never tell it straight!

 

[Grendel]

No passion, just not blind to facts and have my eyes open. You keep insisting there is a hedge fund, from what I read it is clear there is no Maltese hedge fund. From what I also read, Richardson is the owner.

By the way, do you believe the earth is flat or round?

So you know the share structure of the organisation that owns moonstone? Provide a link and I will apologise.

 

[stupot07]

Surely Simon would have got an accountant to look at those figures before writing his article?


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[steveecov]

Surely Simon would have got an accountant to look at those figures before writing his article?

Obviously drinks in the wrong wine bars.

 

[duffer]

Aw come on; let's stop pointing to these old accounts to point to Wasps being loss-making. They have a profound change in their business; and it's much more accurate to say they they were loss-making, and now we don't know. As opposed to talking them down as loss-making in the current. They took more in F&B's at the Leinster game than they did in the whole of last season. Let's see how that - and other revenues - pan out in newer accounts before we continually dismiss their finances

MMM, appreciate what you're saying here, but let's look at the facts. Wasps had an operating loss of £4m last year. No matter how profound the change it would surely be truly remarkable if that suddenly became a profit on the back of buying a loss making ACL (especially with a £14.4m mortgage to service).

There's a key point here about F&B, which is that the money that comes from it is not all coming into Wasps. The joint venture with Compass and the upfront payment that ACL received as a result seems to make how much is truly obtained from F&B muddy at best. I'm not for a moment trying to defend SISU, but could it be that this actually isn't as good a deal for Wasps as it has been painted?

The one thing I would agree with you about, is that we'll have to wait to see. But there's no doubt that Wasps were loss-making at the point ACL was sold to them, and a few decent crowds supported by a fair amount of free tickets doesn't convince me that things will have changed to the tune of £4m.

 

[duffer]

What a shame Wasps got Derek Richardson, and we got bloody Bryan.

I see your point, but then we are at least still within a few miles of where we started.

 

[chiefdave]

a few decent crowds supported by a fair amount of free tickets doesn't convince me that things will have changed to the tune of £4m.

Haven't the ticket prices for Wasps games also dropped from what was being charged at Wycombe?

Free tickets is something you have to be careful with, of course it helps fill the ground but you have to take care not to devalue your product. People are getting used to not paying full price with freebies, offers etc. If and when they stop the majority of that and people are faced with having to pay full price every game will it be perceived as a price hike and if so will that put a significant number of people off attending?

 

[stupot07]

Haven't the ticket prices for Wasps games also dropped from what was being charged at Wycombe?

Free tickets is something you have to be careful with, of course it helps fill the ground but you have to take care not to devalue your product. People are getting used to not paying full price with freebies, offers etc. If and when they stop the majority of that and people are faced with having to pay full price every game will it be perceived as a price hike and if so will that put a significant number of people off attending?

Yes, pretty sure adult tickets were £40 per game at wycombe.

How much is it costing them for all the free transport and complimentary food?


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[duffer]

Yep. I've no savings, have always lived within my overdraft, and yet the bank are always flinging credit card offers at me due to my excellent credit score!

Not the same comparison, but an indicator of how these ratings are formulated. Bit like the FIFA World rankings really, that seem to think England are top 10 material.

Just as an aside - as someone who used to work in this area I can tell you there's a fair bit of science behind credit risk, especially in retail banking and credit cards.

Think of it like this, just because you've got a great credit rating doesn't guarantee that you won't take out a humping great loan and then bugger off to Peru with your new mistress leaving the bank high and dry.* However, what it really means is that out of 1000 people with your rating only (say) 50 will do that, and the bank will make enough profit out of the other 950 to cover you sticking it to them. Plus if they cock up they can always get the government to bail them out again.

* Don't do it btw - that yapping dog of hers will drive you slowly mad, and within six months you'll wonder what on earth you were thinking.

 

[Sky Blue Harry H]

[h=2]£61m of debt wiped out in latest CCFC accounts[/h]
Haven't read any of the detail, but I knew they'd struck a good deal re: Calum Wilson

 

[egastap]

From the accounts I can dig out items like:
- Provisions from amounts due from group undertakings (whatever that means) - £0,75m
- Impairment of Goodwill - £2,2m
- Land & Buildings - £0,3m

I think the 'Impairment of Goodwill' is the cost of litigation. lol

 

[ccfcway]

Haven't the ticket prices for Wasps games also dropped from what was being charged at Wycombe?

Free tickets is something you have to be careful with, of course it helps fill the ground but you have to take care not to devalue your product. People are getting used to not paying full price with freebies, offers etc. If and when they stop the majority of that and people are faced with having to pay full price every game will it be perceived as a price hike and if so will that put a significant number of people off attending?

I got free tickets when i was 8 and 9 at Highfield Rd.... Those free tickets have cost me an awful lot of money in my lifetime after that got me hooked on CCFC

 

[thekidfromstrettoncamp]

Plus heartache

 

[ccfcway]

Plus heartache

and the nuddy hatrick at Anfield, the 4-2 at Old Trafford, the 4-2 at Blackburn, the 3-1 at Tottenham, the 5-2 at Blackburn, the 3-2 v Man Utd, the 3-0 Quinn Hatrrick v Arsenal, the 5-1 v Liverpool, the 3-0 v Villa etc etc

Great times !!!!!

 

[thekidfromstrettoncamp]

Yes but for every good time how many times have you walked away from the ground saying what a load of sh1t