It's just hot air from Fisher/sisu until plans are revealed.
Fisher on new stadium (10 Viewers)
- Thread starter SkyBlue_Bear83
- Start date
It's just hot air from Fisher/sisu until plans are revealed.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Shorten it to "In somebody else's home" then. It also fits a lot better.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
I'm not surprised you want us to keep funding Wasps. There is no prospect of a ground being built anyway so this is all hypothetical but in Fisher's scenario the club gets everything the ground makes as it is the 'ACL' of the stadium, and pays SISU a slice of the proceeds. Let's contrast that to now where we pay Wasps a slice but we don't even get all the money *we* make and of course not all of what the ground makes because Wasps own ACL.
Which of these scenarios is better in the long run? I see no successful future just handing revenue and rent to a rugby club owned by someone no different to our Joy.
hill83
Well-Known Member
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Someone should help him his head is shaking quite a bit.
torchomatic
Well-Known Member
skybluebeduff
Well-Known Member
Not really, the last 10 years the seats have said "CCFC", I rent my home but I class it as MY home, I pay for it!
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
At the end of the day no one genuine believes the stadium will be built so its all bs and we all know it.
Of course there are some logical reasons to build a new stadium but the facts and figures don't add up certainly for no investors and the stadium is just a dream. It will never happen purely because it isn't Possible. It won't be built within Coventry thereforeit won't get hardly any fans and we still would rent anyway.
Any decsion sisu take on our club is to make money it's not for us. The whole idea behind getting the ricoh for free basically was to make more money not the heart break for fans going or not going to Northampton.
We are screwed until they leave and that's the bottom line.
Of course there are some logical reasons to build a new stadium but the facts and figures don't add up certainly for no investors and the stadium is just a dream. It will never happen purely because it isn't Possible. It won't be built within Coventry thereforeit won't get hardly any fans and we still would rent anyway.
Any decsion sisu take on our club is to make money it's not for us. The whole idea behind getting the ricoh for free basically was to make more money not the heart break for fans going or not going to Northampton.
We are screwed until they leave and that's the bottom line.
skybluebeduff
Well-Known Member
[video=youtube;G_g20yHuXrw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_g20yHuXrw[/video]
No, actually we don't know. All we have is an opinion.
There are not enough figures available for anyone to make a qualified guess whether it makes financial sense for investors to engage. We don't know if it's possible - in theory almost everything is possible.
Yes, the club would pay rent - as we have done all the time at the Ricoh. And as Wasps does even if they own ACL.
Until we get a sugar daddy who spend money for fun, all we will ever have is owners who want to make money. The previous owners also wanted to make money - they even went so far as to set up CCFC ltd for third party ownership of players (until that became illegal).
Everything in the capitalistic world is driven by money - football being absolutely no exception.
skybluepm2
Well-Known Member
I'd rather it went to Wasps than into the back pocket of that Finnish whore. There will be no escape if they go ahead with fantasy arena.
I know we don't fill the Ricoh but the potential is there, we all know that. I'm happy going every week a 1/4 full in the hope that one day our luck will turn and we will be rid of SISU. A move outside of the City, in a 12,000 seater ground built of Lego by those tossers will be the final nail in the coffin. Who do they think is going to follow them there?
duffer
Well-Known Member
Except that there is absolutely no scope for that whatsoever. If JR2 goes ahead, which would consider whether the council acted appropriately in effectively allowing ACL to have a £14m loan backed by Wasps, then Wasps might be named as an 'interested party' since they own 100% of ACL.
But to be clear the action isn't against Wasps, it's against CCC. The worst that could likely happen is that CCC would be obliged to withdraw the loan to ACL, and ACL/Wasps would presumably have find the funds from another source.
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italiahorse
Well-Known Member
Sisu could have had the Ricoh for £13M ACL + £14M loan = Total £27M and yet that was too expensive.
Yet they will spend a minimum of £25M on a 12,000 seater stadium with limited facilities.
A £25M loan would take 250 years to pay back at £100,000 a year (current rent)
Get real ..... its bullshit.
John_Silletts_Nose
Well-Known Member
If I am reading things correctly then the club is currently paying £100,000 a season for the Ricoh.
This is less than £5,000 for each match for a ten year old 32,000 seater stadium, a large number of exec boxes, lots of commercial revenue opportunities related to the match (eg. advertising, sponsorship) and income from food and carparks.
I am not sure if a better deal can be found.
This is less than £5,000 for each match for a ten year old 32,000 seater stadium, a large number of exec boxes, lots of commercial revenue opportunities related to the match (eg. advertising, sponsorship) and income from food and carparks.
I am not sure if a better deal can be found.
SkyBlueCharlie
Well-Known Member
While I agree with your final comment I also can understand Godiva's point of view. I think most fans believe that the new ground is pie-in-the-sky BUT with this crowd anything is possible. There are parcels of land available outside of the City boundary and IF Sisu acquire one of these it could be possible for them to attract investors depending upon the infrastructure proposed. After all that is their business and to a degree they appear to have been quite successful at it, just have no idea on how to run a football club.
But, as Godiva quite rightly says we just do not have sufficient information to make an accurate assessment of the costs, income and therefore the viability of the project. For example, as no land has been either identified or purchased how is it possible to even begin making any financial or economic assessments?
"It's bullshit......" possibly or even probably but with our current owners I wouldn't bank on it!
It could be bullshit, but the numbers are purely guesswork until the business plan is made.
I don't think even Fisher knows the capacity - he started with 12.000, for the last year or so he has said 18.000.
It would depend on the size of the land, the infrastructure, the distance from town centre, projections of average attendances etc.
You cannot compare buying the Ricoh (and btw they were never offered to buy all the shares) to building a new facility. ACL was not a sound business and the Yorkshire Bank Mortgage was a showstopper. Even ACL's own advisors valued the business a lot lower than £27m - and in the end of course it went for £5.5m.
Current rent won't stay £100k forever. It's only guaranteed for another 3 years. What happens then is up to Wasps.
When ACL offered a reduced rent of £800K/yr many said it was fair and that the club should take it. Then the offer was reduced to £600k and then again to £400k and I think most on here at least thought that was an excellent offer. So I would assume most would think it fair if the rent was at that level with the addition of all match day and non-match day revenues. But again, it depends on the final projection before we will know if the rent level is fair and acceptable.
italiahorse
Well-Known Member
Why are you not surprised I want to keep funding Wasps ?
You are Naive in your assumption that because we play there we should get 'all' related incomes yet make no contribution for providing the facilities for those incomes.
This club will do okay once we start winning again and people like yourself start attending.
duffer
Well-Known Member
It would take a lot longer than that, in truth, when you take interest into account. I think TF's argument has always been that it wouldn't be that much debt, but until he comes up with at least some top line figures it's hard to see how it works even if you get the £25m down to say £10m.
Regardless, we're just as stuck with Wasps as landlords. For everyone that says that we should 'do a deal' with them, no one has ever been able to put forward a proposal of what that deal would look like.
The truth is that Wasps need the 24/7/365 revenue from ACL as much as we do - what can they actually give CCFC that we haven't already got (a cheapish rental with part of the matchday takings)?
From a purely business standpoint, as I see it the best chance for CCFC to stay at the Ricoh and prosper has to be Wasps failing. I can't help but feel that this is SISU's primary plan - nothing else seems to add up.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Help me out. I'm confused. (If this has been covered, sorry, hard to pull out among the insults flying around in this thread).
Obviously Otium Entertainment won't be building the stadium, it'll be Arena Bedduth Plc or whatever. What happens to that company if/when Sisu sell the club. Does it (and it's debt) go as part of the group like Holdings was and therefore for all intents and purposes "the club" did build the stadium, or will it be retained by Sisu or sold elsewhere, leaving us back in the same situation of not owning our ground and being at the behest of a landlord.
I can only see those two options, it's going to be impossible to get an answer to that question from Fisher and Joy as "the club's not for sale", but realistically a lot of fans are looking beyond Sisu and onto what happens next. I'm not a high falutin finance type like yourself, but I can't see any option that doesn't load the club with debt or leave us in a worse position than we were under ACL.
Hide the pliers.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Anything's possible if you have the relationships right. I said in another thread that right now is the time to ask for stuff from Wasps because they're in charm offensive with the people of Coventry. Now is not the time to sulk about the plan to nick the Ricoh failing.
As much as posters on here like to claim otherwise, we really have no idea what Wasps need or what would work for them until we ask.
To be honest, I don't see why it has to be non-matchday stuff from the stadium. I know FFP says it has to come from there, but let's be honest that's hardly an obstacle for Sisu's accountants if they felt like it. We could rent or buy space anywhere to put on events, maybe Wasps could be convinced to rent out parts of the Ricoh for cost as a gesture of goodwill. Personally I'd start by buying something near the ground to be a fans bar for example.
I think sisu are preparing for there end game, they will build this stadium because it will make us much more attractive to buy, they will sell the club dependent on the stadium, 1 theory is the owner will build the stadium sell the club for say 40m with what hes supposedly put in since being here with the attractive new ground with small rent and all revenues for the club and the now owner will make silly money over years off the club with rent and interest, win win were debt free money making club and the owner now has his money back and more OR we get a another company to build a stadium we organise a fair rent and then the owner the person sisu wrk for will then sell or stick around for years and we end up a run of a mill top half championship club with any future profits or money making goin into the owners pocket hoping one year we have a good season and get in the prem which could take 20+ years
That could apply to the SISU point of view too!
The piece you're missing is the 'ACL' bit.
A sisu controlled/investor owned company buy the land and build the facilities. The company (prop-co) will or will not be in the SBS&L group. It doesn't really matter.
This company sell a long lease to a management operating company - similar to ACL, but this company is within the SBS&L group, so part of the club company structure.
The club (Otium) pay rent to the management company - like we did (and like Wasps do) at the Ricoh.
When sisu sell up and leave, they will sell the whole SBS&L group to a new owner. So the management company will stay within the club structure.
As I said in another post in this thread - until they buy land it's just hot air.
Well, at least the property company is. Yes, you could say that they have the same role as the council.
But as long as they haven't sold the club you could say they are 'the Council', 'ACL' and the club owners.
The reason why we're in a real catch 22 situation; if Wasps remain and they are not going to try and inflame the situation with CCFC, we are always secondary tenants.
The rent we pay is fair. We all want a promotion; think that's a gimme by all on here. Assuming we do within 2 years; the new rent will be massively increased.
:guitar2: We're on our road to nowhere.
The rent we pay is fair. We all want a promotion; think that's a gimme by all on here. Assuming we do within 2 years; the new rent will be massively increased.
:guitar2: We're on our road to nowhere.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
As I alluded to, I think this is where a lot of the issues come from. Sisu will obviously never talk about leaving the club, in it for the long haul and all that, but some fans (myself included) seem to be coping by starting on the assumption that Sisu have to go sometime and so are focussing on that. Frustrating.
Not really anywhere, it must be within the football complex. But yes, the club could buy facilities at the Ricoh at cost and arrange events to boost FFP/SMCP budget.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Surely a set of accountants as, um, creative, as Sisu's could get around FFP if they really wanted to? A gift from the owners here, a management fee there, etc. etc.
I'm still unconvinced you'll make enough through car boot sales on the pitch to support the running of a top level football club, but I'm willing to be proven wrong. Are there any examples of clubs that are now financially solvent after doing this?
Sky Blue Kid
Well-Known Member
I've already posted my views on renting from SISU, being charged management fees by SISU, and interest charges by SISU. I foresee, as you do, a massive rent hike in the Championship....£1.3m at a guess. God forbid we make it to the Premier league...£4-5m again a guess. Step forward Grendel, you're much better at guesses and estimations than I amThe reason why we're in a real catch 22 situation; if Wasps remain and they are not going to try and inflame the situation with CCFC, we are always secondary tenants. The rent we pay is fair. We all want a promotion; think that's a gimme by all on here. Assuming we do within 2 years; the new rent will be massively increased. :guitar2: We're on our road to nowhere.
I think you know better than to mention 'management fees' to me
Anyway, they have already made 'gifts' - in the last account they converted +£2m debts to equity which was probably necessary to keep the wage bill within the FFP/SMCP limits.