A new stadium and some searching questions (6 Viewers)

[The Gentleman]

As it seems increasingly likely that we won't be getting our hands on the Ricoh anytime soon, if we cannot get access to more revenues from Wasps then a new stadium may be our only possibility to reach the top flight again.

With this in mind I've been reading around about new stadiums and teams and have just read a bit about York City. They announced they were going to build a new stadium in 2009 and chose their preferred site in 2010. They wanted a community type scenario and have had a few problems (which are and should be expected with these type of things) and it has just been approved for build and expected to start June 2015 for an 8000 capacity stadium for £37 million.

With what we have been told about a community stadium with around 12-16k capacity, why the hell aren't ALL local media outlets constantly banging down the door of Fisher with questions of where, when, how, how much, with who and who pays. If we are continually told that our owners have long term plans for us, why can't they just come up with simple answers asked by the people who need to be asking.

I know people will say that it is because it will never happen (and I agree with them), the simple truth is unless we can really get our claws into the Ricoh then we simply have to build a new stadium.

 

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[Samo]

As it seems increasingly likely that we won't be getting our hands on the Ricoh anytime soon, if we cannot get access to more revenues from Wasps then a new stadium may be our only possibility to reach the top flight again.

With this in mind I've been reading around about new stadiums and teams and have just read a bit about York City. They announced they were going to build a new stadium in 2009 and chose their preferred site in 2010. They wanted a community type scenario and have had a few problems (which are and should be expected with these type of things) and it has just been approved for build and expected to start June 2015 for an 8000 capacity stadium for £37 million.

With what we have been told about a community stadium with around 12-16k capacity, why the hell aren't ALL local media outlets constantly banging down the door of Fisher with questions of where, when, how, how much, with who and who pays. If we are continually told that our owners have long term plans for us, why can't they just come up with simple answers asked by the people who need to be asking.

I know people will say that it is because it will never happen (and I agree with them), the simple truth is unless we can really get our claws into the Ricoh then we simply have to build a new stadium.

Unfortunately there are other more realistic but less paletable outcomes. A new stadium is very low, if not bottom of the list of possibilities.

 

[Noggin]

the simple truth is unless we can really get our claws into the Ricoh then we simply have to build a new stadium.

That is not and never has been the simple truth, at least while we are a league one club if we are unable to buy into the Ricoh then renting is the most financially viable option by a very significant margin.

 

[chiefdave]

Until we get some details on how Fantasy Land will be funded its hard to form an opinion. To use extreme figures a stadium costing £10m entirely funded by the club is a worse proposition than a £200m stadium where £195m is being raised by leasing out other parts of the site (like the Tesco deal at the Ricoh).

Its certainly true to say it will be very difficult to compete at Championship, let alone Premier League, level without access to all stadium revenues so even if we no longer have SISU as owners the problem remains. Unless we want to stay at this level for decades to come at some point a new stadium will be required.

 

[chiefdave]

That is not and never has been the simple truth, at least while we are a league one club if we are unable to buy into the Ricoh then renting is the most financially viable option by a very significant margin.

You can't say it's the most financially viable option without knowing any figures for a new stadium!

What we do know is that the current rental deal, which don't forget is short term, allows us to be competitive at this level. So we could stay at the Ricoh if we are happy being a L1 side and hope that at the end of this deal we can get a similar deal again.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I still don't understand why it has to be all about finances...

 

[Samo]

Until we get some details on how Fantasy Land will be funded its hard to form an opinion. To use
extreme figures a stadium costing £10m entirely funded by the club is a worse proposition than a £200m stadium where £195m is being raised by leasing out other parts of the site (like the Tesco deal at the Ricoh).

Its certainly true to say it will be very difficult to compete at Championship, let alone Premier League, level without access to all stadium revenues so even if we no longer have SISU as owners the problem remains. Unless we want to stay at this level for decades to come at some point a new stadium will be required.

It might be a requirement chief but that doesn't mean it will ever happen.

 

[chiefdave]

It might be a requirement chief but that doesn't mean it will ever happen.

Indeed and that is the worry. As much damage as SISU have done to the club by selling the stadium to Wasps CCC may well have consigned us to lower league football for years to come.

 

[Samo]

Indeed and that is the worry. As much damage as SISU have done to the club by selling the stadium to Wasps CCC may well have consigned us to lower
league football for years to come.

Yup, could be the single most significant decision in our club's history.

 

[hill83]

Indeed and that is the worry. As much damage as SISU have done to the club by selling the stadium to Wasps CCC may well have consigned us to lower league football for years to come.

Yeah but they got one over on Sisu though didn't they LOL

 

[Noggin]

You can't say it's the most financially viable option without knowing any figures for a new stadium!

I'm extremely confident that I can.

 

[dongonzalos]

I still don't understand why it has to be all about finances...

What do you mean?

 

[Noggin]

I still don't understand why it has to be all about finances...

because that's the only thing that affects weather or not it happens, we can all agree I think that owning our own stadium is a great thing and we want it to happen, but as a league 1 club under sisu it's simply not going to.

 

[dongonzalos]

You can't say it's the most financially viable option without knowing any figures for a new stadium!

What we do know is that the current rental deal, which don't forget is short term, allows us to be competitive at this level. So we could stay at the Ricoh if we are happy being a L1 side and hope that at the end of this deal we can get a similar deal again.

Without getting told any figures you have to just go by other similar projects

 

[Deleted member 5849]

because that's the only thing that affects weather or not it happens.

Only if you want to prove that you're more like SISU than SISU themselves.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

What do you mean?

There are intangible elements surrounding space, place and identity that are worth more than whether the return is 0.5% more on a balance sheet or not.

As it happens, the hedge fund owners of Liverpool recognise that sometimes the depth that goes with 'home' can translate into more in terms of a saleable brand identity than any superficial seemingly 'better' move to a 'better' ground.

 

[dongonzalos]

There are intangible elements surrounding space, place and identity that are worth more than whether the return is 0.5% more on a balance sheet or not.

As it happens, the hedge fund owners of Liverpool recognise that sometimes the depth that goes with 'home' can translate into more in terms of a saleable brand identity than any superficial seemingly 'better' move to a 'better' ground.

Yes but if you can't really afford to build it or by building it you end up worse off.

Do you not think we need to understand how it is viable before looking at the obvious benefits

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Do you not think we need to understand how it is viable before looking at the obvious benefits

I think there's a split between asking SISU how it is viable for them (The Gent is quite right that these questions should be asked) and not discounting the idea entirely (The Gent is probably right that going forward, we need our own ground).

In the latter respect, we probably need to get in on the Local Plan too... and so far there's absolutely no reason for us to be catered for in it, because there's absolutely no voice for us.

 

[Noggin]

Only if you want to prove that you're more like SISU than SISU themselves.

huh?

Sisu are the ones that decides weather a new stadium happens or not, the only thing that matters to sisu is finances thus the only thing that affects weather the stadium happens or not is finances, since it's clearly completely and utterly unviable financially it's not going to happen.

What happens with the stadium says absolutely nothing whatsoever about me, why on earth would it?

 

[dongonzalos]

I think there's a split between asking SISU how it is viable for them (The Gent is quite right that these questions should be asked) and not discounting the idea entirely (The Gent is probably right that going forward, we need our own ground).

In the latter respect, we probably need to get in on the Local Plan too... and so far there's absolutely no reason for us to be catered for in it, because there's absolutely no voice for us.

I think it is concerning that a stadium consultation group was set up. To involve us and communicate information. Yet it seems even they have said we won't meet again until we see some sort of proof this will really happen

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I think it is concerning that a stadium consultation group was set up. To involve us and communicate information. Yet it seems even they have said we won't meet again until we see some sort of proof this will really happen

Meh, we'll get local pies.

 

[The Gentleman]

You can't say it's the most financially viable option without knowing any figures for a new stadium!

What we do know is that the current rental deal, which don't forget is short term, allows us to be competitive at this level. So we could stay at the Ricoh if we are happy being a L1 side and hope that at the end of this deal we can get a similar deal again.

Therefore, using recent builds based on what our owners have said about community involvement blah blah blah, then is it not easy to look at York City's build costs as a rough guide? however, as we have been told our capacity will be nearly double theirs and build costs are higher the further south you go, would it not be sensible to at least make an educated guess that a new stadium would be upwards of £40 million? then make more educated guesses that Sisu would have to put at least half into that as it would be difficult to attract investors to a struggling L1 team with little pulling power in Coventry, let alone further afield.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Therefore, using recent builds based on what our owners have said about community involvement blah blah blah, then is it not easy to look at York City's build costs as a rough guide? however, as we have been told our capacity will be nearly double theirs and build costs are higher the further south you go, would it not be sensible to at least make an educated guess that a new stadium would be upwards of £40 million? then make more educated guesses that Sisu would have to put at least half into that as it would be difficult to attract investors to a struggling L1 team with little pulling power in Coventry, let alone further afield.

I'd be minded to go for Rotherham tbh, as that's the model... which was £20mil to build (although no clue if that included land or not - I suspect not).

How much is Scunthorpe's? York's seems... pricey for what it is.

 

[chiefdave]

Therefore, using recent builds based on what our owners have said about community involvement blah blah blah, then is it not easy to look at York City's build costs as a rough guide? however, as we have been told our capacity will be nearly double theirs and build costs are higher the further south you go, would it not be sensible to at least make an educated guess that a new stadium would be upwards of £40 million? then make more educated guesses that Sisu would have to put at least half into that as it would be difficult to attract investors to a struggling L1 team with little pulling power in Coventry, let alone further afield.

The key word there is guess. What's the point of guessing, educated or otherwise? If, and as we all know it's a very big if, things ever start to move forward then we can asses the options.

If energy is going to be expended on anything regarding a new stadium would it not be better to push Tim Fisher for the details we need to know rather than speculating on the finances of something we don't know the specification or location of?

There's huge variance in costs. The Ricoh was what, £120m? As you say York was £40m and Bournemouth £15m. So using them as a basis for an educated guess, without knowing the stadium specification or location, how much is it going to cost?

 

[ccfcway]

I think it is concerning that a stadium consultation group was set up. To involve us and communicate information. Yet it seems even they have said we won't meet again until we see some sort of proof this will really happen

concerning, YES, surprising, NO

 

[Deleted member 5849]

If energy is going to be expended on anything regarding a new stadium would it not be better to push Tim Fisher for the details we need to know rather than speculating on the finances of something we don't know the specification or location of?

Fair point, well made.

 

[ccfcway]

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/tim-fisher-says-coventry-city-4713943

Just the 21 months ago now.

Fisher hoped we would be 2/3 of the way to building it by now, but we havent even found some land.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

I still don't understand why it has to be all about finances...

Because nobody does anything for nothing.
Your employer tells you they can't or won't pay you anymore...you wouldn't just shrug your shoulders & carry on would you?

PUSB

 

[The Gentleman]

The key word there is guess. What's the point of guessing, educated or otherwise? If, and as we all know it's a very big if, things ever start to move forward then we can asses the options.

If energy is going to be expended on anything regarding a new stadium would it not be better to push Tim Fisher for the details we need to know rather than speculating on the finances of something we don't know the specification or location of?

There's huge variance in costs. The Ricoh was what, £120m? As you say York was £40m and Bournemouth £15m. So using them as a basis for an educated guess, without knowing the stadium specification or location, how much is it going to cost?

Is that not what I was saying when I started this thread?

We sort of do the the spec too. It is going to involve community, is going to be a 60 acre site, not just a stadium but retail/industrial outlets, academy and training facility on site and wherever it is it will need infrastructure.

I was a building surveyor for nearly 18 years and now have a building company, so yes, I can make an educated guess when I know what sort of things these projects involve.

 

[Gazolba]

I know people will say that it is because it will never happen (and I agree with them), the simple truth is unless we can really get our claws into the Ricoh then we simply have to build a new stadium.

We don't have to build a new stadium, we can just stay where we are. It makes more financial sense than any other option. A new stadium (which would not be owned by CCFC either) will only create massive debt for the club.

 

[letsallsingtogether]

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/tim-fisher-says-coventry-city-4713943

Just the 21 months ago now.

Fisher hoped we would be 2/3 of the way to building it by now, but we havent even found some land.

But it was in the Telegraph so can't be true!
Now if it was in the Observer then some might stand up and take notice.

Then again it was by that renowned reporter.

 

[Astute]

The key word there is guess. What's the point of guessing, educated or otherwise? If, and as we all know it's a very big if, things ever start to move forward then we can asses the options.

If energy is going to be expended on anything regarding a new stadium would it not be better to push Tim Fisher for the details we need to know rather than speculating on the finances of something we don't know the specification or location of?

There's huge variance in costs. The Ricoh was what, £120m? As you say York was £40m and Bournemouth £15m. So using them as a basis for an educated guess, without knowing the stadium specification or location, how much is it going to cost?

Not all of it is a guess.

HR and the land got sold. We were given 50% of the lease of the Ricoh. We were not given any land. We do not own any land where we could build a stadium. So we would need to pay for land as well as for building a stadium. So the build cost would be in the millions before a brick is laid. 20m was seen as too much by TF for the Ricoh. And that is with the 14m loan that if it concerns Wasps doesn't count towards the cost of buying into the arena. So they could have bought into the arena for about the price of the land for a new stadium. This tells me that they either don't want or can't afford to build a stadium.

And on no guessing from information that we have how about where TF says they are looking? He says in the Rugby council district. Rugby council says no. All other councils around Coventry say no.

Building a new stadium doesn't make short term sense. And the SISU way is always short term. They are not worried about our football clubs long term future. They also know that it is a massive gamble building a stadium away from Coventry. So who in their right mind would gamble on a stadium costing somewhere in the region of 30m to make any money? How much of it could they ever expect to get back?

Yes we all know what would be best for our club. But it isn't us that would have to pay for it.

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

chiefdave.... "If energy is going to be expended on anything regarding a new stadium would it not be better to push Tim Fisher for the details we need to know rather than speculating on the finances of something we don't know the specification or location of?"............................................................For me and 95% of fans the most important question by far, is one that's way down on your list...LOCATION!

 

[Otis]

chiefdave.... "If energy is going to be expended on anything regarding a new stadium would it not be better to push Tim Fisher for the details we need to know rather than speculating on the finances of something we don't know the specification or location of?"............................................................For me and 95% of fans the most important question by far, is one that's way down on your list...LOCATION!

We KNOW the location.


It's in Fisher's head.

 

[mrtrench]

I still don't understand why it has to be all about finances...

I agree. I'd have thought that if (big if) there really was a will to do it, SISU would put the money in from their investment pot. The sticking point in my opinion is that SISU doesn't really have the will to do it. It's almost always been about getting the Ricoh for them (I think they really did think they'd invest in the team at the very start but that stopped when we weren't promoted the first year). Then plan B was litigation. I'm not convinced that plan C would really be a new stadium - that would give pedestrian returns that are below their investors' expectations.