In Times of Austerity (4 Viewers)

[mrtrench]

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/11/the-tories-have-piled-on-more-debt-than-labour/

Well I could be flippant and ask why people are moaning about austerity if the coalition spent more...

However, this is a lazy "no shit sherlock" article which points out exactly what I stated a few posts ago. If you run a deficit during growth then you are really in the shit when tax income drops during a recession. Now you've got high borrowing (interest to pay) and massive drop in tax revenue - of course the deficit will rise. Nothing new to see here.

 

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[mrtrench]

http://www.cityam.com/article/uk-wealth-hits-record-high

And this article just points out that the stock market and house prices rose after we returned to growth. Driven, to a large extent, as people regained faith in the UK economy because they had an adult in number 11. More 'no shit sherlock'.

 

[RegTheDonk]

The NHS is already one of the most efficient and effective health care systems in the world, why would we want to privatise it? You're not going to get bupa / Harley street service, you'll get a Ryanair version. http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jun/17/nhs-health and I don't think MrTrench was suggesting we make a profit from the health service, he meant water, gas, electric, rail, etc.


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Maggie already opened those stable doors, so far all Dave's got away with is letting the postie go on the cheap.

Interestingly, I wonder how much would be in the public kitty now IF they hadn't got away with selling off the water, the railways, the airways, the gas, the electricity, the telecoms? All that profit going back into the system, rather than making the cats fatter. We may even be able to afford the missiles our Dave's about to launch against Syria.

Sod it though, we're all in this together after all, treat everybody as equal and we can all pay the same. I should scrape by with 50% of my £30K to live on, bloke next door on minimum wage, fuck him, let him go to poundland or a food bank if he can't make ends meet, he should have been more careful when he got run over by that drunk driver and lost a leg...just a shame that banker up the road will have struggle on 50% of £200K, he'll only be able to afford three holidays this year.

 

[Huckerby]

You seem adamant to want to privatise the NHS, which is already one of the most efficient health care systems which is envied by most countries. Ok let's say we privatise it, what level of saving will the government expect when it goes out to tender? 10%,15%,20%? Then whatever that is, the private company will be wanting to make 10-20% profit, so do you think the private industry will be able to deliver the quality NHS service (yes, it could be a lot worse) for 60-70% of the present budget? What happens when the service impacts on the profit margin? Refuse treatment? Reduce the number of ambulance's? Reduce the number of doctors? And where does that lead you? Higher waiting lists, more avoidable deaths, etc.


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Regulation

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[Ashdown]

Quality this :

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/coventry-council-paid-out-nearly-9687492

bruised their foot on a vacuum cleaner !! This is where much of the countries money goes ! Down lawyer leeches throats !

 

[stupot07]

Regulation

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Lolz. .


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[mrtrench]

I have worked for private companies and public. My experience is it is an absolute myth that public sector throws away money - where I have worked is far, far more efficient than any private...

As with anywhere, there are efficient and inefficient areas in public sector and also private sector.

I'm sure that's very true. I have spent almost my entire career in the private sector as a freelancer, moving around for 2 years stretches at a time. Apart from one or two places I have been horrified at the inefficiency and waste of money. I'm sure that there must be one or two public sector places run well. However I don't believe that the NHS is one of them. Source: a couple of friends who work in the NHS and also my own observations of visiting people in hospitals. But IMO privatisation isn't the answer - we need to address the issue directly.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

But IMO privatisation isn't the answer - we need to address the issue directly.

And not use it as an excuse to cut budgets and cut jobs, as that doesn't solve any underlying issues.

All that means is you get less of a service! And sometimes... no service.

 

[Huckerby]

Maggie already opened those stable doors, so far all Dave's got away with is letting the postie go on the cheap.

Interestingly, I wonder how much would be in the public kitty now IF they hadn't got away with selling off the water, the railways, the airways, the gas, the electricity, the telecoms? All that profit going back into the system, rather than making the cats fatter. We may even be able to afford the missiles our Dave's about to launch against Syria.

Sod it though, we're all in this together after all, treat everybody as equal and we can all pay the same. I should scrape by with 50% of my £30K to live on, bloke next door on minimum wage, fuck him, let him go to poundland or a food bank if he can't make ends meet, he should have been more careful when he got run over by that drunk driver and lost a leg...just a shame that banker up the road will have struggle on 50% of £200K, he'll only be able to afford three holidays this year.

Wouldn't have been as profitable as they are now so it's a false question really.

Come on do you really need to use such an extreme example to rubbish the flat rate tax idea? You can do better than that.

How about a 20k tax free allowance then x% for everyone.

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[mrtrench]

And not use it as an excuse to cut budgets and cut jobs, as that doesn't solve any underlying issues.

All that means is you get less of a service! And sometimes... no service.

No, not as an excuse. But not off the table. In my experience of the private sector, most of the inefficiency comes from hordes of managers who add no value and overly-bureaucratic processes that tie up the people who can add value in pointless tasks. By taking a scythe to the pointless-manager headcount and changing processes you then have the option to achieve much more with the people that 'do' or to reduce costs there too without affecting productivity (and all shades in between).

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Level of cuts getting scary now! How can you cut £200m more from local councils public health budget. Such shocking short terminism and will leave councils with impossible decisions on adult care

 

[Huckerby]

Level of cuts getting scary now! How can you cut £200m more from local councils public health budget. Such shocking short terminism and will leave councils with impossible decisions on adult care

Is that a lot really? What percentage is that?

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[RegTheDonk]

Level of cuts getting scary now! How can you cut £200m more from local councils public health budget. Such shocking short terminism and will leave councils with impossible decisions on adult care

It's not just that Pete, it's up to 40% of government departments. They've cut waste as much as they can, so it'll have to be personnel. And they want to slash the welfare budget, so it's get a job or starve. Thank god for minimum wage and zero hours contracts, just as long as you can jump the queue over those Poles.

Looks like a merger with Birmingham could be the best way for the ratepayer if you still want some kind of local service. I wonder how many actual workers will be either laid off or put into a pool with the rest of "Greater Birmingham" to fight for their place. Not to worry though, Gideon's ring fenced the NHS, so we can be put on a drip rather than starve to death.

My one big fear though is crime as I doubt the old bill will do much to help you if they get cut by 40%. My prediction - PCSOs will either go to save money, or have greater powers to save employing more coppers. Just make sure you keep your broadband, you'll probably report crime through that just so you can make an insurance claim without them turning up.

Think we'd best all move abroad, they seem determined to keep that cash flowing.

 

[Huckerby]

It's not just that Pete, it's up to 40% of government departments. They've cut waste as much as they can, so it'll have to be personnel. And they want to slash the welfare budget, so it's get a job or starve. Thank god for minimum wage and zero hours contracts, just as long as you can jump the queue over those Poles.

Oh please.

Yes there are lots of English people queuing up at 6am on a snowy December morning to come and wash cars for £6 an hour arent there? We'll blame anyone else but ourselves...

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

MY TWOPENNETH.

TRIDENT Replacement: approx. £125- 200 billion waste of money.

HS2: approx. £60-80 billion waste of money. Rich getting richer. Wealth gap widening.

Sale of public housing stock: Stupid, immoral, short-term & obscene when faced with the fact we spend over £25Billion on housing benefit every year.....a large chunk of which goes straight into the back pocket of slum landlords..... Rich getting richer. Wealth gap widening.


Inheritance tax giveaway. Obscene & morally indefensible. Rich getting richer. Wealth gap widening.

PFI: Massive massive rip off and yet more public money trousered by the corporates. Rich getting richer. Wealth gap widening.

Privatisation of the Royal Mail: Scandalously undersold..... Rich getting richer. Wealth gap widening.

However....Anyone who believes the NHS or local government departments cannot be run more efficiently without cutting front-line services is, in my view, an idiot......

...Of course, making these organisations more efficient & productive would require people of actual competence being in positions to make said efficiency savings.....something often sadly lacking in my experience.

 

[Huckerby]

MY TWOPENNETH.
Inheritance tax giveaway. Obscene & morally indefensible. Rich getting richer. Wealth gap widening.

Really?
I come from a large family and didn't have lots of money growing up. I worked hard and went to university and now got a decent job, bought my first house. I plan on working really hard to give any kids I might have a good start. I pay enough tax as it is on my income and everything else. If I leave my child a house worth £500k, why should they then have to pay a huge chunk of inheritance tax on that? About £70,000 tax? Be paying tax twice....

 

[Ashdown]

MY TWOPENNETH.

TRIDENT Replacement: approx. £125- 200 billion waste of money.

HS2: approx. £60-80 billion waste of money. Rich getting richer. Wealth gap widening.

Sale of public housing stock: Stupid, immoral, short-term & obscene when faced with the fact we spend over £25Billion on housing benefit every year.....a large chunk of which goes straight into the back pocket of slum landlords..... Rich getting richer. Wealth gap widening.


Inheritance tax giveaway. Obscene & morally indefensible. Rich getting richer. Wealth gap widening.

PFI: Massive massive rip off and yet more public money trousered by the corporates. Rich getting richer. Wealth gap widening.

Privatisation of the Royal Mail: Scandalously undersold..... Rich getting richer. Wealth gap widening.

However....Anyone who believes the NHS or local government departments cannot be run more efficiently without cutting front-line services is, in my view, an idiot......

...Of course, making these organisations more efficient & productive would require people of actual competence being in positions to make said efficiency savings.....something often sadly lacking in my experience.

It's hard to disagree with much of that, although I think we DO need a nuclear deterrent with the likes of Putin posturing all the time.

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

Really?
I come from a large family and didn't have lots of money growing up. I worked hard and went to university and now got a decent job, bought my first house. I plan on working really hard to give any kids I might have a good start. I pay enough tax as it is on my income and everything else. If I leave my child a house worth £500k, why should they then have to pay a huge chunk of inheritance tax on that? About £70,000 tax? Be paying tax twice....

Why should your kids get a tax break cos their dad did OK?

They would still receive a massive lump of cash for doing nothing except being lucky....and then more cash after the tax.

You won't be paying tax twice as you won't have paid capital gains on the increased value of your properties or investments despite its above inflation rises.

Only 5% of deaths in 2013/14 were subjected to the tax (on the old lower threshold) so the new threshold will only benefit the top 2% of population.....this while they're cutting benefits from children in poverty & people with cancer....that's why its obscene.

It reinforces the money goes to money tradition of the upper middle class Tories.

A fairer system would encourage more to downsize in their later years...reducing the number of property rich-cash poor pensioners & also freeing up valuable much need family sized housing stock.

Its the principle of it that stick in my throat......basically in a nutshell.....its kids getting rich & paying no tax on huge lumps of cash just cos they were born lucky.


....and for the record, this isn't coming from a bitter skint perspective.....my kids will have to pay the tax when I pop my clogs...

 

[Huckerby]

Why should your kids get a tax break cos their dad did OK?

They would still receive a massive lump of cash for doing nothing except being lucky....and then more cash after the tax.

You won't be paying tax twice as you won't have paid capital gains on the increased value of your properties or investments despite its above inflation rises.

Only 5% of deaths in 2013/14 were subjected to the tax (on the old lower threshold) so the new threshold will only benefit the top 2% of population.....this while they're cutting benefits from children in poverty & people with cancer....that's why its obscene.

It reinforces the money goes to money tradition of the upper middle class Tories.

A fairer system would encourage more to downsize in their later years...reducing the number of property rich-cash poor pensioners & also freeing up valuable much need family sized housing stock.

Its the principle of it that stick in my throat......basically in a nutshell.....its kids getting rich & paying no tax on huge lumps of cash just cos they were born lucky.


....and for the record, this isn't coming from a bitter skint perspective.....my kids will have to pay the tax when I pop my clogs...

I understand your point. Also, thanks for having a civilized debate without firing obscenities at me for having a different opinion - people struggle with that on here.

I just think that surely it's my decision who I gift my possessions to when I die? Fine, if you want to work out he difference between inflation and the appreciation of my assets or investments then fine, tax that like income tax.

I also don't get the "luck" argument. It's not luck if i've worked hard to give me child a better chance. I know that you're looking at it from the childs point of view, but then surely by the same token it's not fair to send your children to better schools just because you can afford it? Buying them clothes, a car, etc etc.

 

[RegTheDonk]

.....

However....Anyone who believes the NHS or local government departments cannot be run more efficiently without cutting front-line services is, in my view, an idiot......

...Of course, making these organisations more efficient & productive would require people of actual competence being in positions to make said efficiency savings.....something often sadly lacking in my experience.

Agree with most you've said Jim, but picked this one out as a real bug bearer. Yes, we've seen there is waste in way the public sectors been run, probably down to having too much spent on them, but they have in the main reacted to this and getting things under control. The problem is there are so many middle managers who have had the decisions passed down to them of what gets cut, it ultimately will be front line...they're not going to sack themselves are they?

Having people of competence, well Osborne thinks the answer is to get the entrepreneurs to take it on board and sort it all out for us. Why the hell would any private enterprise want to take on public services? For the love of doing it for the community? Its to make money, pure and simple, and once you've chopped the back room as much as you can, the only way to continue to make profit IS to cull the front line.

It's hard to disagree with much of that, although I think we DO need a nuclear deterrent with the likes of Putin posturing all the time.

Yes, it's an unfortunate necessity that has helped keep the peace between the superpowers for the last 50 years. Fortunately, so far, we've had the threat by supposedly sane countries having the bomb - what will happen when a real rogue nation joins the club, that's a worry.

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

I understand your point. Also, thanks for having a civilized debate without firing obscenities at me for having a different opinion - people struggle with that on here.

I just think that surely it's my decision who I gift my possessions to when I die? Fine, if you want to work out he difference between inflation and the appreciation of my assets or investments then fine, tax that like income tax.

I also don't get the "luck" argument. It's not luck if i've worked hard to give me child a better chance. I know that you're looking at it from the childs point of view, but then surely by the same token it's not fair to send your children to better schools just because you can afford it? Buying them clothes, a car, etc etc.

Without getting too philosophical about it........we could have been born in Somalia or Ethiopia or Afghanistan.....so, yes, luck is always a factor......

....anyhow....I actually better get some work done instead of debating politics on a footy forum...DOH!

 

[chiefdave]

Nice of Cameron to try and take jobs away from Coventry :jerkit:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-33638634

 

[lifeskyblue]

That's what I love about that 'nice' Mr Cameron. All for the prominence of markets...except when it isn't in his interest. Coventry with its history and skills is I would suggest the natural choice of the company of the politicians keep out of it


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[wingy]

Nice of Cameron to try and take jobs away from Coventry :jerkit:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-33638634

c**t!
Slimy Tory twat, they seem to be developing. a trend of sticking the boot into our City.
Last time they didn't win a seat here they cut a thousand jobs the following week.
HS2, ,Jag engine plant to M54 Telford. scrapping Advantage West Midlands.
A City built on the Motor Industry, Puegot Closure, thousands of workers here with the necessaries.
I guess the enforcement of Several towns and Cities merging to become Greater Birmingham. with a Metro Mayor calling the shots Is going to get our voice heard (not).
A Metro Mayor democratically rejected less than a couple of years ago.
At least the path to resistance will evaporate
as a Digby Jones type will receive whatever funds Gideon sends up here to Impliment more cuts.Devolvement all around thanks to Scotland.
So why do we need MP's nowadays.

 

[wingy]

I understand your point. Also, thanks for having a civilized debate without firing obscenities at me for having a different opinion - people struggle with that on here.

I just think that surely it's my decision who I gift my possessions to when I die? Fine, if you want to work out he difference between inflation and the appreciation of my assets or investments then fine, tax that like income tax.

I also don't get the "luck" argument. It's not luck if i've worked hard to give me child a better chance. I know that you're looking at it from the childs point of view, but then surely by the same token it's not fair to send your children to better schools just because you can afford it? Buying them clothes, a car, etc etc.

How about the luck to have been born in the 50's rather than the 90's
The golden generation who experienced possibly 3 housing booms during their lifetime and all that comes from that, second homes on the continent etc, free University, Gideon buying votes with bonds with. enhanced Interest levels just prior to the Election?
I could go on .

 

[Terry Gibson's perm]

Cameron is a tool, there is no better city in the country to build cars than Coventry

 

[Terry Gibson's perm]

How about the luck to have been born in the 50's rather than the 90's
The golden generation who experienced possibly 3 housing booms during their lifetime and all that comes from that, second homes on the continent etc, free University, Gideon buying votes with bonds with. enhanced Interest levels just prior to the Election?
I could go on .

I see a lot of people who must have 50's kids playing golf and having holidays etc, as a 70's child I have no chance of a retirement let alone a retirement where I can do things unless my numbers come in.

 

[Huckerby]

How about the luck to have been born in the 50's rather than the 90's
The golden generation who experienced possibly 3 housing booms during their lifetime and all that comes from that, second homes on the continent etc, free University, Gideon buying votes with bonds with. enhanced Interest levels just prior to the Election?
I could go on .

sounds a little bit bitter?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I see a lot of people who must have 50's kids playing golf and having holidays etc, as a 70's child I have no chance of a retirement let alone a retirement where I can do things unless my numbers come in.

...or unless you're lucky enough for your 50s born parents to a) own property and b) not to need nursing care.

Let's face it, if we can all get online we're probably lucky in a world sense but... naive not to suggest inheritance is anything but luck.

 

[Terry Gibson's perm]

...or unless you're lucky enough for your 50s born parents to a) own property and b) not to need nursing care.

Let's face it, if we can all get online we're probably lucky in a world sense but... naive not to suggest inheritance is anything but luck.

Also so relies on them dying before you do, my mum is late 50's and in semi retirement and my nan is still going strong at 80 odd and my great grandad was well into his 90's so they seem to have some longevity.

 

[M&B Stand]

How about the luck to have been born in the 50's rather than the 90's
The golden generation who experienced possibly 3 housing booms during their lifetime and all that comes from that, second homes on the continent etc, free University, Gideon buying votes with bonds with. enhanced Interest levels just prior to the Election?
I could go on .

The right to buy scheme was a bonus for the working class of the 50's generation. Only really the rich had property before that.

You also forgot final salary pensions!

Gordon Browns raid on the pensions didn't endear him to the 'working' class.

 

[Grendel]

...or unless you're lucky enough for your 50s born parents to a) own property and b) not to need nursing care.

Let's face it, if we can all get online we're probably lucky in a world sense but... naive not to suggest inheritance is anything but luck.

There has to be an element of self dependency and realistic expectation, My first property was very modest. Children now seem to want the lifestyle now which parents worked for - not realistic.

 

[Huckerby]

I see a lot of people who must have 50's kids playing golf and having holidays etc, as a 70's child I have no chance of a retirement let alone a retirement where I can do things unless my numbers come in.

So all 70's kids have no chance of retirement then (unless their parents were rich of course)?
Funny...my boss at work is absolutely laughing. From Bradford and from a family of 9. Didn't have 2 pennies to rub together growing up. Could comfortably retire now I reckon, got a property he rents out and no mortgage on his own. Couple of other people are work like that too.

Still...cause you were born in the 70s you have no chance....

 

[Terry Gibson's perm]

So all 70's kids have no chance of retirement then (unless their parents were rich of course)?
Funny...my boss at work is absolutely laughing. From Bradford and from a family of 9. Didn't have 2 pennies to rub together growing up. Could comfortably retire now I reckon, got a property he rents out and no mortgage on his own. Couple of other people are work like that too.

Still...cause you were born in the 70s you have no chance....

No it doesn't say that it says I can't but maybe others can, if he can retire why doesn't he then far more to life than work and if he gets out of the way the next person can maybe make a bit more. It will be difficult for many from the 70's onwards to retire as their parents have, glad I have a wife with a final salary pension but no doubt Cameron will try and put an end to that as well.

 

[chiefdave]

So all 70's kids have no chance of retirement then (unless their parents were rich of course)?

Of course you can always find individuals but the fact is the number of pensioners needing to work is rising and shows no sign of doing anything but continuing to rise.