Refugees welcome? (56 Viewers)
- Thread starter SlowerThanPlatt
- Start date
The arrivals in Kiel are living in a Container village and are better off there than in my flimsy Ikea wardrobe.
So your just talking the talk, you would prefer people to live I a container village instead of your comfortable Ikea flat? ..
So your just talking the talk... You would prefer people to live in a container village rather than your warm flimsy Ikea flat
My flat has room for myself, my wife and my kid ( when she visits ). I believe in education as well, but no-one has asked me to have a school in my flat. Believing in assisting refugees doesn't mean they have to move in with me. The container village is brand new and clean and tidy. So, actually you guys are just talking bollocks and closing your eyes to the fact that we are involved whether we like it or not. No-one has an answer at the moment, but turning your back on people won't make the problem go away.
Harry Krishner
Well-Known Member
...opening the flood gates won't make the problem go away either.
I would be quite happy offering temporary refugee status on the guarantee that they all go back when things improve. However we all know this will never happen- they will be here for good.
I know of no instance where the middle east or north Africa has offered refuge to people from Europe- not one. The last time was 1948 when Jews fought tooth and nail to found the state of Israel- and have been at war ever since in a fight for survival. However cases of forced conversion to Islam are very widespread and there was also European slavery as practiced by the Barbaray pirates.
Quote from the Economist:
"The churches better pray that the new immigrants show as much love and compassion for them when a few years down they are settled and begin to flex their political muscle. Me suspects they'll give more credit to Allah rather than the vicars of Christ for their new condition, and will exercise the loyalties accordingly. For all their desire to welcome immigrants to Europe, if they're not careful they will be come immigrants themselves in no long long order"
Forget your labels of "left" and "right". They are meaningless. Open your eyes to what actually is.
PUSB.
I would be quite happy offering temporary refugee status on the guarantee that they all go back when things improve. However we all know this will never happen- they will be here for good.
I know of no instance where the middle east or north Africa has offered refuge to people from Europe- not one. The last time was 1948 when Jews fought tooth and nail to found the state of Israel- and have been at war ever since in a fight for survival. However cases of forced conversion to Islam are very widespread and there was also European slavery as practiced by the Barbaray pirates.
Quote from the Economist:
"The churches better pray that the new immigrants show as much love and compassion for them when a few years down they are settled and begin to flex their political muscle. Me suspects they'll give more credit to Allah rather than the vicars of Christ for their new condition, and will exercise the loyalties accordingly. For all their desire to welcome immigrants to Europe, if they're not careful they will be come immigrants themselves in no long long order"
Forget your labels of "left" and "right". They are meaningless. Open your eyes to what actually is.
PUSB.
What actually is, is that people are here on our doorstep and they are desperate. Whether other people offer refuge or not, these people have sold everything and risked their lives to get here and they cannot go back - there are no people smugglers going in the other direction and they have no money to pay anyone anyway. Yes, Islam is a shit religion, but so are all religions because they are based on pure Fantasy - and guess what.... there is always someone at the top with enormous Wealth and power. Plus none of the Gods is capable of printing money and relieving poverty. In fact the more poverty, the better. You can keep the wealth and power for yourself and let the poor believe they will get their share in paradise. Badness is not unique to Islam and it's Extremist followers. Personally, I think treating people well will work out better in the end. Why drop to the level of religious fanatics? The floodgates are not set on permanently open and the sooner countries like Syria are free from war the better.
Nick
Administrator
I think the issue is that every refugee needs to be vetted to see how needy they are. I don't doubt there are thousands upon thousands who do need help and they should get help. There will also be people taking the piss who could potentially ruin it for others / take the aid for somebody who does need it.
What is happening now though is that there are too many desperate people to vet - Germany has 140,000 claims to process. Yes, the scum will take advantage of this, but it is a bit like at an overcrowded stadium with thousands pushing to get in. At a derby game here ( Kiel ) in 2004 against St Pauli Hamburg, everyone was being searched and thousands were still outside at kick off. The crush was so bad that they opened the gates and everyone piled in with or without tickets - I made it as far as the bar and all I saw from the game was when the ball was high in the air - had a good time though. It is like that here - refugees were arriving in Germany with kids with no shoes, hardly enough clothes stinking and exhausted. The choice was let them in without screening all of them or let them rot....Pleased Merkel let them in, but the problem just won't go away. The claims still have to be processed and those from "safe" countries will be sent home. Germans know about trekking across Europe - older people remember the refugees from the east. Even then there was resentment as some people were forced to have them in their homes. But they took them in. Memories are coming back and that is probably why Germans are mucking in to help them. Living on an island with no land borders probably gives you a different perspective, but I was pleased to see them get a standing ovation before the Kiel game on Saturday. They have risked everything to get away from scumbags and I'm for showing them humanity - even if some scumbags come with them ( cannot avoid that ).
Amongst many in Germany, I imagine Merkel is as popular as a rattle snake in a lucky dip !
She is very popular because of the decision to let them in - except in some parts of East Germany where the neo Nazis are stronger. The CSU, her coalition partners from Bavaria ( catholic and conservative - except in Munich ), are fuming because she made the decision without consulting them. Up here, the people agree - most of them - with the decision and there are lots of people wanting to help. Now people want to know where we go from here. Most know we cannot take everybody on the move. Some of the people on here would be on the side of the Nazis judging by their staements. I find that worrying.
Are they really Nazi's because they are concerned about too much immigration ? I find it worrying also that people are slammed for having a contrary opinion to the far left. I'm glad we have a Conservative government right now who will enable the UK to do it's bit { For genuine refugees } and by sensibly using money from the foreign aid budget to help the councils fund it. When folk jump on the bandwagon of slagging off ordinary Brits over this mess, they ought to remember that we are a prime destination for migration from many countries across the globe and we are currently taking in a number similar to the size of the City of Coventry every year. I might add that most of these settle in England too rather than spreading out into Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
They may not be Nazis, but they could end up side by side with the Nazis. I am not left wing by any means, but I am glad that Merkel, CDU ( conservative ), has done the right thing in this case.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
I find it worrying that it's classed as left wing to want to help others.
Shouldn't that be human nature, not a political ideology?
torchomatic
Well-Known Member
And he demonstrates the lack of sympathy and compassion associated with Conservatism and the right.
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D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
tbf, if we were talking politics, then a right wing free market economy would embrace economic migrants as improving efficiency in a labour market.
So it's fair to say an aversion to economic migrants is not a right wing position in that sense.
However...
We're not talking economic migrants here anyway. Personally I'm not sure that politics should piggy-back on humanity. Not convinced it's good to generalise full-stop, be it right wing, left wing... or migrants as a whole.
Funnily enough, does that mean that the "far left" includes Merkel and the Pope who are also of a contrary opinion to the previous poster - Ashdown? Ashdown is glad that we have a conservative government in Britain ....... our coalition in Germany is led by the conservatives and many Germans are glad that the CDU ( conservatives ) let the refugees come and are even applauding the refugees as they arrive. Me too. The pope has instructed his church to take in refugees and some are in the Vatican. It is strange that German conservatives, right wing catholics, and myself, a liberal atheist, are standing with the left, whilst UK conservatives like Ashdown find themselves standing with the German Nazis and the extreme right UKIP, against helping refugees.
The German employers federation and chambers of commerce ( and the Arbeitsministerin Frau Nahles ) have pointed out that many refugees are qualified or skilled and that a certain percentage would help fill the record vacancies for qualified or skilled workers. The biggest problem being the language, but many are volunteering to teach the refugees German.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
It is. Economically no doubt I'd be given a right wing label but I have no issue with the offer of assistance.
It seems Cameron's offer is woefully inadequate though from today's announcement.
What is the offer?
Where have I or the UK Conservatives said that help shouldn't be given to genuine refugees ? All I've said is that we are taking record amounts of migrants as it is from all over the world. This clamour to take Syrians seems to be ignoring the plight of South Sudanese, Burmese, Kenyans, Nigerians, Palestinians, Libyans and many more who live in fear of tyranny and terrorism
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Glad you agree we should open the door to more from Palestine etc.
stupot07
Well-Known Member
20k asylum seekers/refugees over 5 years.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors
Posters are very quick to make assumptions on here about contrary viewpoints. Quite frankly my priorities in life involve bringing my 3 kids up in a safe country, that is inclusive for all, but kept secure, provides employment prospects primarily for it's existing citizens and ran in a sound economical fashion. As a family we support the British Red Cross and Blood cancer charities plus other wildlife organisations. My arguments are always based on economics primarily and it grieves me that certain types seem to see all the wealth out there in the UK and think that we all have money to burn on all causes. Like the UK, most of us can only do so much.
When people get all emotional about humanitarian issues they also ought to remember that Mankind is doing very well as a species, lives and thrives on every continent while it's population is expanding at an alarming rate whilst many other species of mammals, birds, insects, reptiles etc are being eliminated. Mankind largely creates it's own problems !
When people get all emotional about humanitarian issues they also ought to remember that Mankind is doing very well as a species, lives and thrives on every continent while it's population is expanding at an alarming rate whilst many other species of mammals, birds, insects, reptiles etc are being eliminated. Mankind largely creates it's own problems !
Harry Krishner
Well-Known Member
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
What would be the point of assisting victims of oppression, brutality and torture indeed...
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Because they are not white and Ayrian race perhaps?
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D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
tbf, I think that's a harsh low blow in general.
I'll quite happily, for example, say I got it wrong about Ashdown, and be pleased to see that, as he rightfully points out, other nations have people deserving of our help. Furthermore, when he says his arguments are economic, he shows himself more pro migration as migration overall is of vast benefit to this country economically.
Therefore extending it, it would be naive not to encourage migration from economic migrants, as they lift our standard of living higher. As for refugees then, well... the numbers are remarkably small in the grand scheme of things, and I'm sure the overall net benefit of migration shows we can accept our charitable acts.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
I'm talking about the other guy whose clearly on the wind up as I've never hardly seen him post on here.
The general reaction from some deserves the hyperbole. It's been disappointing.
My concern is that as well as doing what we can to deal with the current issue we also deal with the root cause. It isn't really a sustainable future plan to have vast areas of the world lawless with the decent law abiding folk of these nations travelling thousands of miles to escape their own homes.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
That's a perfectly fair point.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Of course the humorous thing for me is that the one party leader after September 12th who shares any views with Adolf Hitler certainly will not be David Cameron or that grinning little man who represents the Lib Dems.
oakey
Well-Known Member
Precisely. Of course we have to take people in under emergency circumstances but we cannot have emergency mode as the new normal. It seems imperative that countries get together and address migration as an issue for us all. It is unsustainable for millions of people to be on the move around the globe as the norm without creating chaos. Surely the UN should call for a major world conference to discuss joint strategy.
If Britain was in the turmoil that Syria is in, for instance, would we want to lose many of our youngest, ablest citizens to another country permanently or would we want them to stay and help stabilise our country and rebuild it?
Broken Hearted Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
I was in Serbia last week saw the tent cities in Belgrade I was appalled how those genocidal muslim hating Serbs treated these people in contrast to how the Macedonian and EU civilised Hungarians treated and continue to treat them.
Harry Krishner
Well-Known Member
The point I'm making is that it would be a waste of time- things rarely improve in the ME.
The tone of this discussion is very "white" and smacks of an inherrent superiority complex (they need us to help them out). The whole area is prone to periodic violent upheavals, and their notions of government, justice etc. are quite different from those in the west. They tend to totalitarian governments/harsh monarchies or dictatorships. They have had ample time to sort things out, but never really have (from a western viewpoint- the average Israeli will tell you this). G W Bush's supposed attempt at introducing democracy was a ridiculous waste of time. And they are perfectly entitled to do things their own way- it's got fuck all to do with us. Let a couple of million in now, and ten years later there'll be another couple of million from whatever the latest disaster is.
So this benign, superior tone adopted by many posters on here is incredibly irritating - that a) the world needs our paternal guidance to tie it's shoelaces; b) Anybody, anywhere actually gives a fuck what people on SBT think; c) the UK/Europe is yours to graciously give access to whoever the fuck you want, dismissing anybody who disagrees as a "right-wing", "xenophobe" or "racist".
One poster mentioned it was ok to take a few terrorist deaths in Europe in order to help those poor, unfortunate Syrians. How fucking arrogant- I just hope it's that person's family that gets it. I personally would not be prepared to risk one Lee Rigby or another 7/7, or 1200 underage girls in Rotherham for 20,000 stateless people who have destroyed their passports.
The tone of this discussion is very "white" and smacks of an inherrent superiority complex (they need us to help them out). The whole area is prone to periodic violent upheavals, and their notions of government, justice etc. are quite different from those in the west. They tend to totalitarian governments/harsh monarchies or dictatorships. They have had ample time to sort things out, but never really have (from a western viewpoint- the average Israeli will tell you this). G W Bush's supposed attempt at introducing democracy was a ridiculous waste of time. And they are perfectly entitled to do things their own way- it's got fuck all to do with us. Let a couple of million in now, and ten years later there'll be another couple of million from whatever the latest disaster is.
So this benign, superior tone adopted by many posters on here is incredibly irritating - that a) the world needs our paternal guidance to tie it's shoelaces; b) Anybody, anywhere actually gives a fuck what people on SBT think; c) the UK/Europe is yours to graciously give access to whoever the fuck you want, dismissing anybody who disagrees as a "right-wing", "xenophobe" or "racist".
One poster mentioned it was ok to take a few terrorist deaths in Europe in order to help those poor, unfortunate Syrians. How fucking arrogant- I just hope it's that person's family that gets it. I personally would not be prepared to risk one Lee Rigby or another 7/7, or 1200 underage girls in Rotherham for 20,000 stateless people who have destroyed their passports.