December Stadium Deadline (8 Viewers)
- Thread starter ccfc92
- Start date
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
From the bits I've found online it looks to me that there are more than one way to skin the propco opco cat as well. For TF to say it will be a propco opco arrangement for me doesn't really tell us anything.
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skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
I would argue paying rent is an issue. It's only part of the picture but there has to be a balance of what rent we pay and what we get in return. Hasn't that always been the issue? As OSB points out the more we get the more we are likely to pay. It's also wrong to say we get nothing from renting at the Ricoh. We do. Not everything but something.
Moff
Well-Known Member
Wow you liked my post so much you answered it twice. I am blessed.
To answer your question, I disgaree with those like yourself, who imply they dont want us to build a stadium and want to cosy up at Wasps mercy for ever and a day. You would have us be their tenant permanently and even have suggested they should own us, which is like SISU selling to SISU mark 2.
I dont doubt we have to work with Wasps in the short term, but hopefully not the long term.
We would be far more attractive to potential buyers with a stadium, than without.
Nick
Administrator
While I am no expert, I haven't heard anything and I am sure it would have been on here and the CET.
ccfcway
Well-Known Member
surely it would be prudent for whoever came 2nd in the local election to adopt that policy ?
Tim Fisher has said on record that the financial backers of the new stadium will only support development outside of Coventry.
easiest where's wally ever, hes on the right
Otis
Well-Known Member
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Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
Only potential backers, not confirmed, I think you will find there is a big big difference between an unattributable expression of interest made in a private meeting and a firm commitment to put up money.
ccfc1234
Well-Known Member
The stadium idea is a bad one. Wasps will have a great surge in attendance this season post World Cup but come next march ccfc will have higher attendances and wasps will become increasingly aware of our value from a prestige and financial contribution standpoint to the venue.
My only concern is wasps got the stadium SO SO cheap from our ccfc hating local council it will take a while for them to feel the financial pinch their appalling long term attendances will generate.
My only concern is wasps got the stadium SO SO cheap from our ccfc hating local council it will take a while for them to feel the financial pinch their appalling long term attendances will generate.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Another Timmy gem. I find it hard to believe that any serious backer is that sensitive that they won't deal with CCC especially if there's money to be made.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Or anyone wanting to retain their number one spot for that matter.
Nick
Administrator
I am not too sure they are too fussed about being number one, or they are quite confident they aren't to be moved.
Otis
Well-Known Member
Yeah, it's daft isn't it. A new stadium in Coventry would be the best bet to get people in the ground and for anyone to make money. Why would backers only say they would put money up for a Coventry business that is outside of Coventry?
ccfcway
Well-Known Member
surely that was due to their relationship with the current council, as opposed to wanting to leave the city ?
Otis
Well-Known Member
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
I think waiting for the Wasps bubble to burst because of falling attendances to get ownership is a forlorn hope.
I would not be surprised to see them fall away after this coming season to some degree. But they are going to need to fall a long way to match the CCFC hoped for attendance average of 11000. Last season the average at the Ricoh was over 19000 for Wasps matches. If there is a boost because of the RWC then you might reasonably expect at least 19000 again. Wasps are guaranteed at least 2 home league fixtures that will push towards a sell out, then there is the European Rugby. Events like the Singha 7's and the RWC warm up match vs Samoa all soften the blow of any fall this season, who is to say other rugby events wont be attracted in the future?
Can CCFC maintain their current levels in L1? I really hope so, I hope it improves on that. But greater crowds will require greater team success than the current welcome situation on the pitch provides. It could be done, higher averages will require promotion and with it owner investment to make sure that the promotion sticks however. Anyone confident of that extra investment because I am not?
BUT CCFC is not nor never has been under the Wasps Ricoh ownership the thing that makes the difference. They don't receive a commercial rent from CCFC and football crowds do not spend at matches like rugby ones do. So the profit that Wasps make out of CCFC is debateable and even if under the present arrangement crowds went to 20000 average then I suspect the contribution to Wasps coffers will not be great in the overall scheme.
As far as marketing opportunities or profile go, currently its Premier Rugby vs L1 football..... as something to hang your own brand on which would you choose? The image rights high profile and importantly TV incomes reside very much in the Premiership in football as it does in Rugby. Yes there is local marketing which is largely (not exclusively)what CCFC have to look to but the Rugby Premiership is looking to be a national even European brand. It is not like it used to be..... rugby is no longer in the backwaters of marketing and by their purchase of the Ricoh Wasps have something of a premium standard to offer clients which in turn finances their on pitch activities which lessens the chance of not being able compete and failure
It costs upwards of £3500 to sponsor a player for wasps, the CCFC figure I doubt is anywhere close to that. That difference in cost reflects the profile and stature of the two products on offer, it indicates where the marketing money is likely to go for major players
If the pronouncements are to be believed then the stadium brings in 1/3 of the turnover (mainly from Rugby) and the rest of it 2/3. That in itself provides financial clout few other teams Rugby or even football have. It means the owners are not so reliant on team results or the size of the crowds. It means that the owners are not so reliant on CCFC fans turning up, yes it is welcome income but a business breaker probably not. The complex is busy without the 46 or so days of first team sport, just because crowd figures are not shown daily does not mean there is nothing going on
So could Rugby crowds drop to a lower level? possibly but will it be below 10000 probably not. Will crowds average 20000 for CCFC in L1 ? they could but its unlikely
Like it or not Wasps do not rely on CCFC for their well being under present arrangements - and there in lays potential problems for CCFC
That said things may become clearer when Wasps publish figures for the financial markets next month
Much of the above is why it was so vital for CCFC to have got a deal at the Ricoh not Wasps....... bloody frustrating the games that were going on by all sides and it cost CCFC dearly and possibly permanently
I would not be surprised to see them fall away after this coming season to some degree. But they are going to need to fall a long way to match the CCFC hoped for attendance average of 11000. Last season the average at the Ricoh was over 19000 for Wasps matches. If there is a boost because of the RWC then you might reasonably expect at least 19000 again. Wasps are guaranteed at least 2 home league fixtures that will push towards a sell out, then there is the European Rugby. Events like the Singha 7's and the RWC warm up match vs Samoa all soften the blow of any fall this season, who is to say other rugby events wont be attracted in the future?
Can CCFC maintain their current levels in L1? I really hope so, I hope it improves on that. But greater crowds will require greater team success than the current welcome situation on the pitch provides. It could be done, higher averages will require promotion and with it owner investment to make sure that the promotion sticks however. Anyone confident of that extra investment because I am not?
BUT CCFC is not nor never has been under the Wasps Ricoh ownership the thing that makes the difference. They don't receive a commercial rent from CCFC and football crowds do not spend at matches like rugby ones do. So the profit that Wasps make out of CCFC is debateable and even if under the present arrangement crowds went to 20000 average then I suspect the contribution to Wasps coffers will not be great in the overall scheme.
As far as marketing opportunities or profile go, currently its Premier Rugby vs L1 football..... as something to hang your own brand on which would you choose? The image rights high profile and importantly TV incomes reside very much in the Premiership in football as it does in Rugby. Yes there is local marketing which is largely (not exclusively)what CCFC have to look to but the Rugby Premiership is looking to be a national even European brand. It is not like it used to be..... rugby is no longer in the backwaters of marketing and by their purchase of the Ricoh Wasps have something of a premium standard to offer clients which in turn finances their on pitch activities which lessens the chance of not being able compete and failure
It costs upwards of £3500 to sponsor a player for wasps, the CCFC figure I doubt is anywhere close to that. That difference in cost reflects the profile and stature of the two products on offer, it indicates where the marketing money is likely to go for major players
If the pronouncements are to be believed then the stadium brings in 1/3 of the turnover (mainly from Rugby) and the rest of it 2/3. That in itself provides financial clout few other teams Rugby or even football have. It means the owners are not so reliant on team results or the size of the crowds. It means that the owners are not so reliant on CCFC fans turning up, yes it is welcome income but a business breaker probably not. The complex is busy without the 46 or so days of first team sport, just because crowd figures are not shown daily does not mean there is nothing going on
So could Rugby crowds drop to a lower level? possibly but will it be below 10000 probably not. Will crowds average 20000 for CCFC in L1 ? they could but its unlikely
Like it or not Wasps do not rely on CCFC for their well being under present arrangements - and there in lays potential problems for CCFC
That said things may become clearer when Wasps publish figures for the financial markets next month
Much of the above is why it was so vital for CCFC to have got a deal at the Ricoh not Wasps....... bloody frustrating the games that were going on by all sides and it cost CCFC dearly and possibly permanently
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From the minuted meeting with Rugby Borough Council -
"He (Tim Fisher) confirmed that there are investors interested, so long as the physical resource is outside of Coventry (due to Coventry Council doing a hostile take-over of the Club they don’t wish to invest in Coventry)."
Seems like a firm commitment to me.
Skyblueweeman
Well-Known Member
Do we know what % of their attendances are freebies? Numbers in the high teens are all well and good but if 50% are freebies, dropping attendances might have more of an effect.
ccfcway
Well-Known Member
cant be that firm, we should be 2/3rds on the way to it being finished now
Nick
Administrator
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
I understand where you are coming from sbw but then you need to factor in the level of secondary spend going on. Empty seats give you no income but get two taken by a dad and his lad and there is a good chance they will spend £6, £7 or more at the kiosk. Its a well tried tactic and something is often better than nothing
There is also the chance they may enjoy it so much they invest in more of a commitment
Also the longer they can maintain crowd levels then the more chance of making those who do more committed to going. By the end of two seasons at the Ricoh many people will have decided if Premiership Rugby is for them or not...... sadly that may make some choose between one sport or another
There is also the chance they may enjoy it so much they invest in more of a commitment
Also the longer they can maintain crowd levels then the more chance of making those who do more committed to going. By the end of two seasons at the Ricoh many people will have decided if Premiership Rugby is for them or not...... sadly that may make some choose between one sport or another
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skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Sounds like BS to me. Not that he said it, he clearly did. The detail sounds like BS. I don't believe for a minute that anyone who is willing to invest in a hedge fund is either that sensitive or bothered what postcode they invest in so long as there's a return.
In fact if I was being sceptical I'd even suggest that the whole meeting or at least some of what was said was staged knowing that certain details would come out in the inevitable FOI's that would follow.
Skyblueweeman
Well-Known Member
Makes sense OSB, fair comments.
torchomatic
Well-Known Member
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Because CCFC proved such a huge vote winner at the last elections?
I've been staying away from this, but are we still at the point we were last season in terms of progress on the new build?
Even if we take the two year extension at the Ricoh as a given, we have less than Fisher's original timescale to get done, and considering the amount of delays, etc. so far, I can't see us doing the quickest ever stadium build once it does get going.
I really hoped that the Ricoh deal would put a rocket under them to get things sorted within 4 years but nothing seems to have happened.
I hear what some say about it not happening, but if it's not, what's the plan? Am I the only one worried about where we'll be playing in the 2018/19 season? Also about the continuing secrecy? I mean the Ricoh ship has sailed, CCC aren't involved. The SBT doesn't seem to give a fuck any more. Who are we hiding from?
In amongst all the good this season, this issue still sits with me like a dead pixel on an otherwise perfect TV, mostly forgotten as I'm wrapped up in the action, but occasionally coming to the fore and ruining my enjoyment.
Otis
Well-Known Member
Well you have to blame that bloke, Lineour Pockets.
What? But Timmy only speaks the truth! *cough*
The mins due include a lot of TF soundbites, but I don't believe he thought they would end up in the public domain in the form/detail they did, due to the last entry on the mins -
"Discussed whether this meeting/minutes would have to be disclosed under a FOI request.
It was mentioned as this is a confidential pre-application discussion RBC may not have to disclose these minutes under FOI request.
Explanation of FOI to follow - RBC to confirm this position."
However, do think one, if not the, reason for the meeting was to have on record that a meeting had taken place.
TF had previously said meetings had taken place between him and RBC, but the FOIs from Cov Telegraph/Sky Blues Trust said no such meeting had taken place in any format.
The fact there's been no contact since speaks volumes.
torchomatic
Well-Known Member
And I meant it from both sides. SISU won't be here for ever and Lucas et al won't be here for ever, but the decisions they all made will be.
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Otis
Well-Known Member
Doesn't seem right at all does it. All sides have screwed us over and it's going to now be very difficult for us to move forward.
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
If you say so, but smells like bullshit to me.
If our loyal Chairman says it, then what's not to believe?
italiahorse
Well-Known Member
Still unclear what other decision CCC could have made if CCFC genuinely could not afford to buy and run ACL.