December Stadium Deadline (17 Viewers)

[torchomatic]

They could have held on to their "community asset" for a few more years and waited for SISU to disappear, which one day they will. It was doing marvellously don't forget so there was no need to sell to the first franchise that knocked on their door.

"Thanks for the offer, Wasps. The money is tempting, but we would really like to wait for a while until the team who have been in the city for 131 years have different owners. Bye."

Still unclear what other decision CCC could have made if CCFC genuinely could not afford to buy and run ACL.

 

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[Otis]

They could have held on to their "community asset" for a few more years and waited for SISU to disappear, which one day they will. It was doing marvellously don't forget so there was no need to sell to the first franchise that knocked on their door.

"Thanks for the offer, Wasps. The money is tempting, but we would really like to wait for a while until the team who have been in the city for 131 years have different owners. Bye."

The secret talks buggered us up too. Had any would-be investors who were interested in a CCFC takeover got to hear about the business CCC were prepared to do with Wasps it might have changed everything. Lots of outside interest in the Ricoh and its surrounding land apparently.

Think the Wasps thing caught everyone unaware and on the hop.

 

[italiahorse]

They could have held on to their "community asset" for a few more years and waited for SISU to disappear, which one day they will. It was doing marvellously don't forget so there was no need to sell to the first franchise that knocked on their door.

"Thanks for the offer, Wasps. The money is tempting, but we would really like to wait for a while until the team who have been in the city for 131 years have different owners. Bye."

Maybe.
Another thing that still niggles me is whether Sisu got word of the Wasps takeover and came back. Until I can get past that IMHO I think Sisu would have stayed at Northampton.
Information like that is crucial in determining how this would have played out and how it may have affected CCC decision.
Another question to Sisu then is did they know about the Wasps takeover whilst they were at Northampton.

 

[Skyblueweeman]

So, correct me if I'm wrong...but isn't TFs remit, solely to sort out our home arrangements, whether this be at the Ricoh in whatever guise or some new stadium? Is that correct?

If so, surely something must be going on. As much as the bloke is a bit of a knob, surely no one believes nothing's happened? I'm not saying we're buying some/all of the Ricoh from Wasps or for one minute do I believe we're going elsewhere but surely not even he would get away with sitting on his arse for so many months and have nothing to show for it. Surely Joy would be doing her nut at paying for someone say doing jack shit.

I just don't get it.

Unless he's actually spending all his time on legal matters for upcoming court cases? Think I might have answered my own question...

 

[lifelongcityfan]

So, correct me if I'm wrong...but isn't TFs remit, solely to sort out our home arrangements, whether this be at the Ricoh in whatever guise or some new stadium? Is that correct?

If so, surely something must be going on. As much as the bloke is a bit of a knob, surely no one believes nothing's happened? I'm not saying we're buying some/all of the Ricoh from Wasps or for one minute do I believe we're going elsewhere but surely not even he would get away with sitting on his arse for so many months and have nothing to show for it. Surely Joy would be doing her nut at paying for someone say doing jack shit.

I just don't get it.

Unless he's actually spending all his time on legal matters for upcoming court cases? Think I might have answered my own question...

Timmy know anything about legal matters!!! he doesn't know his arse from his elbow!

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I hear what some say about it not happening, but if it's not, what's the plan? Am I the only one worried about where we'll be playing in the 2018/19 season?

No, it's a big concern.

It's all very well our owners being bullshitters / incompetent (or, more likely, both!) but if such an analysis of them is proven right, then it doesn't help us really.

And we need options.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

The secret talks buggered us up too.

Worth pointing this out about now? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-34260708

So who's going to start the FOI (and then appeal) process to try and get ours made public...?

 

[armybike]

If Fisher is actively progressing the stadium, why are the Stadium Forum Group not being updated/consulted?

Their Twitter account is showing as 'no longer active'



Fisher gives more spin than Spinney McSpin in a spin class in Spinnington!

 

[Grendel]

Worth pointing this out about now? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-34260708

So who's going to start the FOI (and then appeal) process to try and get ours made public...?

I'm sure the trust are already on the case

 

[martcov]

The football supporters coalition believes West Ham will pay up to £2.5m a year in rent, potentially giving the Hammers a competitive advantage, but LLDC has refused to confirm the rental cost

2,5m is a competitive advantage?

 

[skybluetony176]

The football supporters coalition believes West Ham will pay up to £2.5m a year in rent, potentially giving the Hammers a competitive advantage, but LLDC has refused to confirm the rental cost

2,5m is a competitive advantage?

Depends on what you get for that £2.5M. Which I guess is what they're trying to find out from the FOI's.

 

[oldfiver]

I think until SISU/CCFC set out the business case properly then we will continue to have these arguments/discussions that go round and round with no real answer

Yes income is important but not important enough to stop it being sold off to third parties. Will that continue in any new stadium

Yes the total income at a new stadium might be higher but then you have to look at the other side of the transaction which sees costs considerably higher too

If CCFC are to get all the income streams of the new stadium then that will be reflected in the rent they pay (because the propco will need to repay at least some form of finance) but also CCFC will also be picking up all the stadium operation costs - or be franchising that operation out which limits CCFC turnover but more importantly cash flow

In the short term then CCFC have to do a deal at the Ricoh...... unless they are considering moving back to sixfields there is no other option...... any new ground is not going to be ready (if ever) within the 2 + 2 year deal we currently have. They have not presented anything to local councils and the planning process alone will take months if not years even without any objections

CCFC want to be at the heart of the community ..... but if it is in the sticks with no good transport links and no real partnership with CCC to help the transport links how does that happen ?

And whether they stay at the Ricoh or go to the new stadium there will be insufficient funds available to compete at the top of the Championship without owners putting more funds/loans in to the club ...... which they say they are not minded to

Would you normally advise your clients to open up their business and financial plans to the general public and competing companies?

If WASPS were willing to do a fair deal with CCFC - the withdrawal of the corporate suites on CCFC match days etc does not set a good example if they are

But then perhaps you are closer to being In The Know and understand their strategy

 

[italiahorse]

Would you normally advise your clients to open up their business and financial plans to the general public and competing companies?

If WASPS were willing to do a fair deal with CCFC - the withdrawal of the corporate suites on CCFC match days etc does not set a good example if they are

But then perhaps you are closer to being In The Know and understand their strategy

I think you will find that CCFC are on a good rental deal but add Ons like corporate need to be purchased extra and up front as ACL have dual usage for some of these areas ie bedrooms.
The difficulty will be getting Wasps to extend this deal at the same rate particularly as we keep talking of leaving.

 

[Grendel]

The football supporters coalition believes West Ham will pay up to £2.5m a year in rent, potentially giving the Hammers a competitive advantage, but LLDC has refused to confirm the rental cost

2,5m is a competitive advantage?

The suggestion is they have 365 days a year revenues and full naming and sponsorship rights as well.

They get more back a year than they spend.

 

[oldfiver]

I understand where you are coming from sbw but then you need to factor in the level of secondary spend going on. Empty seats give you no income but get two taken by a dad and his lad and there is a good chance they will spend £6, £7 or more at the kiosk. Its a well tried tactic and something is often better than nothing

There is also the chance they may enjoy it so much they invest in more of a commitment

Also the longer they can maintain crowd levels then the more chance of making those who do more committed to going. By the end of two seasons at the Ricoh many people will have decided if Premiership Rugby is for them or not...... sadly that may make some choose between one sport or another

So are you agreeing there are lots of freebies but the "secondary spend" makes up for this? But how much of that goes to Compass?

 

[oldfiver]

I think you will find that CCFC are on a good rental deal but add Ons like corporate need to be purchased extra and up front as ACL have dual usage for some of these areas ie bedrooms.
The difficulty will be getting Wasps to extend this deal at the same rate particularly as we keep talking of leaving.

Chicken or egg - Italia? If WASPS cut off an income stream it makes sense to look for another route.

 

[italiahorse]

Chicken or egg - Italia? If WASPS cut off an income stream it makes sense to look for another route.

It's not a regular occurrence and most times that area is empty.

 

[shy_tall_knight]

In my opinion SISU have no intention of building a new stadium, they will run the club as cash neutral and benefit from potential cash windfalls such like Callum's sale. I think they are waiting around for the Ricoh/ CCC / Higgs / ACL court cases to play out. They are probably hoping that some billionaire puts in a crazy offer for us. Waiting for WASPS to fail or for us to get into the Premiership are equally unlikely. Besides the court cases they have no active strategy.

 

[Grendel]

In my opinion SISU have no intention of building a new stadium, they will run the club as cash neutral and benefit from potential cash windfalls such like Callum's sale. I think they are waiting around for the Ricoh/ CCC / Higgs / ACL court cases to play out. They are probably hoping that some billionaire puts in a crazy offer for us. Waiting for WASPS to fail or for us to get into the Premiership are equally unlikely. Besides the court cases they have no active strategy.

Why bother recruiting Mowbray and his complete back room staff then?

 

[shy_tall_knight]

Why bother recruiting Mowbray and his complete back room staff then?

TM's appointment makes good economic sense increased gate receipts, might unearth a gem, increases our chances of promotion, more money in the championship, easier to sell a club the higher the division it is in. No evidence of any coherent long-term strategy since WASPS arrived.

 

[chiefdave]

The football supporters coalition believes West Ham will pay up to £2.5m a year in rent, potentially giving the Hammers a competitive advantage, but LLDC has refused to confirm the rental cost

2,5m is a competitive advantage?

West Ham United will have many of the running costs met by the taxpayer when they move to the £700m Olympic Stadium next year, the BBC has learnt.
Critics say it means the Premier League club will get their new home virtually rent free.

The public authority that owns the stadium, the London Legacy Development Corporation (LLDC), has revealed some details of its rental agreement with the club in response to a Freedom of Information request.
Much of the contract between LLDC and West Ham, which has been seen by the BBC, is redacted.

But it does show that a large number of "facilities and services" will be paid for by the grantor - ie the taxpayer - and not the club.
These include the cost of stadium utilities, security, maintaining the pitch, and even the goalposts and corner flags.

The BBC understands other overheads that could also be paid by the LLDC include the cost of stewarding and policing on match days, which amounts to many hundreds of thousands of pounds for other Premier League clubs.

Two separate football business experts told the BBC the value of the services amounts to between £1.4m and £2.5m a year.

 

[Grendel]

TM's appointment makes good economic sense increased gate receipts, might unearth a gem, increases our chances of promotion, more money in the championship, easier to sell a club the higher the division it is in. No evidence of any coherent long-term strategy since WASPS arrived.

Sounds like a strategy to me.

 

[shy_tall_knight]

Putting together an effective management structure to run a football is hardly a strategy. We need a strategy to allow us to compete in the championship or address our stadium/ lack of income issues.

 

[armybike]

Am I right in thinking that Fisher said that the current structure of the CCFC setup wouldn't be substantial in the Championship?

I'm sure I've read it previously, or certainly something along these lines, but can't for the life of me remember where, cheers.

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

I think waiting for the Wasps bubble to burst because of falling attendances to get ownership is a forlorn hope.

I would not be surprised to see them fall away after this coming season to some degree. But they are going to need to fall a long way to match the CCFC hoped for attendance average of 11000. Last season the average at the Ricoh was over 19000 for Wasps matches. If there is a boost because of the RWC then you might reasonably expect at least 19000 again. Wasps are guaranteed at least 2 home league fixtures that will push towards a sell out, then there is the European Rugby. Events like the Singha 7's and the RWC warm up match vs Samoa all soften the blow of any fall this season, who is to say other rugby events wont be attracted in the future?

Can CCFC maintain their current levels in L1? I really hope so, I hope it improves on that. But greater crowds will require greater team success than the current welcome situation on the pitch provides. It could be done, higher averages will require promotion and with it owner investment to make sure that the promotion sticks however. Anyone confident of that extra investment because I am not?

BUT CCFC is not nor never has been under the Wasps Ricoh ownership the thing that makes the difference. They don't receive a commercial rent from CCFC and football crowds do not spend at matches like rugby ones do. So the profit that Wasps make out of CCFC is debateable and even if under the present arrangement crowds went to 20000 average then I suspect the contribution to Wasps coffers will not be great in the overall scheme.

As far as marketing opportunities or profile go, currently its Premier Rugby vs L1 football..... as something to hang your own brand on which would you choose? The image rights high profile and importantly TV incomes reside very much in the Premiership in football as it does in Rugby. Yes there is local marketing which is largely (not exclusively)what CCFC have to look to but the Rugby Premiership is looking to be a national even European brand. It is not like it used to be..... rugby is no longer in the backwaters of marketing and by their purchase of the Ricoh Wasps have something of a premium standard to offer clients which in turn finances their on pitch activities which lessens the chance of not being able compete and failure

It costs upwards of £3500 to sponsor a player for wasps, the CCFC figure I doubt is anywhere close to that. That difference in cost reflects the profile and stature of the two products on offer, it indicates where the marketing money is likely to go for major players

If the pronouncements are to be believed then the stadium brings in 1/3 of the turnover (mainly from Rugby) and the rest of it 2/3. That in itself provides financial clout few other teams Rugby or even football have. It means the owners are not so reliant on team results or the size of the crowds. It means that the owners are not so reliant on CCFC fans turning up, yes it is welcome income but a business breaker probably not. The complex is busy without the 46 or so days of first team sport, just because crowd figures are not shown daily does not mean there is nothing going on

So could Rugby crowds drop to a lower level? possibly but will it be below 10000 probably not. Will crowds average 20000 for CCFC in L1 ? they could but its unlikely

Like it or not Wasps do not rely on CCFC for their well being under present arrangements - and there in lays potential problems for CCFC

That said things may become clearer when Wasps publish figures for the financial markets next month

Much of the above is why it was so vital for CCFC to have got a deal at the Ricoh not Wasps....... bloody frustrating the games that were going on by all sides and it cost CCFC dearly and possibly permanently

A point to make when comparing attendances is that CCFC have twice as many fixtures as Rugby. 25 home football matches at 12k average is 300,000 people through the turnstiles. 14 Rugby matches at 15k average is 210,000 people through the turnstiles.

I'm not sure of the comparison of spend per head, people keeps saying Rugby fans spend more than football fans but has there been a statistical study done to prove this and how much extra they spend? Given that its likely more football fans will enter the Ricoh over a season I'd say its likely football fans will spend at least as much as rugby over the season, also what else does the club indirectly contribute to ACL in naming rights and stadium advertising. How much value does ccfc add to on this?

How will the prices of Wasps matches affect attendances this year and over the coming years? The free tickets and cheap prices will start drying up over the next 12-24 months and they are already charging obscene prices for some areas of the stadium. It will cost an adult £35 a game to buy a season ticket in block 20 this year for Wasps, I imagine within a few years this price will be standard around most of the stadium. Will people really pay that when the prices start to increases? Already seen a few grumbles that they will no longer get free bus travel which is only an extra £2 a match.

If in 10 years time CCFC have left and Wasps are getting 5-8k for 11-14 games a season as a mid table club where does that leave them with them needing to pay back a lot of money they borrowed with the bond sale? Wasps don't rely on us being here but it would be prudent of them to keep us here.

 

[Terry Gibson's perm]

As taxpayers we would have better off knocking it down after the getting more expensive every week Olympics, West Ham also gain from selling Upton Park to developers for a short term fix.

 

[Jack Griffin]

Why bother recruiting Mowbray and his complete back room staff then?

Still cash neutral. Nothing to see here.

 

[Jack Griffin]

Am I right in thinking that Fisher said that the current structure of the CCFC setup wouldn't be substantial in the Championship?

I'm sure I've read it previously, or certainly something along these lines, but can't for the life of me remember where, cheers.

He has made a lot of statements, one can list the number of them that have come to pass on ... ermm no digits whatsoever.

 

[armybike]

He has made a lot of statements, one can list the number of them that have come to pass on ... ermm no digits whatsoever.

Big announcement in three weeks*

*Disclaimer - The timeframe displayed in this sentence may not be the same as the one you receive.

 

[jas365]

In my opinion SISU have no intention of building a new stadium, they will run the club as cash neutral and benefit from potential cash windfalls such like Callum's sale. I think they are waiting around for the Ricoh/ CCC / Higgs / ACL court cases to play out. They are probably hoping that some billionaire puts in a crazy offer for us. Waiting for WASPS to fail or for us to get into the Premiership are equally unlikely. Besides the court cases they have no active strategy.

Absolutely.

They have very few options left, even less so if the next court case goes against them.

People really need to get the idea of a new stadium out of their heads, there won't be one. We will be at the Ricoh for as long as the club survives.

 

[Astute]

Who would invest in a stadium outside Coventry after seeing our attendances the last time we played outside Coventry?

 

[oldskyblue58]

All fair points CCFC

Average last season for Wasps was 19000 and until we know different then I think you have to assume similar this coming season especially if the expected RWC boost happens. There are 15 home games listed without including the LV cup fixtures. That puts attendances at very similar to CCFC if they average 12000 for 23 league games. What is certain is that aside from rent which I understand to be fixed (and perhaps match day expenses contribution - no one has actually said for sure that these are paid) all ticket income for CCFC games goes to CCFC and Wasps gain nothing from that. The F&B gives CCFC a small percentage and of course CCFC sells hospitality which includes an element of food and car parking CCFC benefits from

Do Rugby fans spend more? as you say there would seem to be no figures to go on. As I understand it the rugby fans arrive earlier and stay later - it might be reasonable to assume they spend money during that time. Even so I do not think there will be any significant difference in crowd numbers and if rugby fans spend just £1 more per head on average then that is worth around £300k in turnover to Wasps that they do not have to share

What do CCFC add to naming rights etc. Hard to tell isn't it. The more successful CCFC become the bigger contribution I would think they make certainly. However with the money now pouring in to Rugby their contribution value at the moment is probably not that great. It will be the television rights and coverage that make the difference, the coverage in L1 does it compare to the coverage of Premiership Rugby? Like I said earlier Rugby marketing and advertising streams are no longer a backwater

The ticket prices - what would it cost to get a CCFC ticket in the Premiership or Championship? What would the lowest price be? Lowest Wasps matchday adult ticket price is currently £15. As you say we have to compare like with like.

There is clearly a business risk to Wasps and CCFC in all this. CCFC needs I would suggest are more pressing. They can not wait for Wasps to fail surely CCFC have to act with some urgency and clarity.

What if Wasps do not fail on the pitch in the next 10 years? what if CCFC do not gain some element of success? What if CCFC get promoted to Championship and crash back down?

There is a lot of uncertainty and a lack of clarity in all this. Just questions that lead to even more questions.

Mine is just a questioning opinion, it might be right it might be wrong - and contrary to some scurrilous remarks of some on here not made with the benefit of inside information

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

I can't see Wasps getting 19k this year, the initial hype will have died down somewhat and all the freebies, cheap ticket offers and attractions will be weened off this season. 15k would still be a good attendance for them. Within the next 5 years I'd be surprised if you can watch Wasps for less than £30, what was the cheapest adult ticket at Adams Park does anyone know? That would be a good benchmark for what people should expect to pay.

 

[oldskyblue58]

Would you normally advise your clients to open up their business and financial plans to the general public and competing companies?

If WASPS were willing to do a fair deal with CCFC - the withdrawal of the corporate suites on CCFC match days etc does not set a good example if they are

But then perhaps you are closer to being In The Know and understand their strategy

To answer your points

No I wouldn't advise my clients to do that. But I would suggest there is more the club could/should have done to inform fans, to get them on side with the new stadium scheme and to snowball the pressure to get it done. So far we have had rhetoric, pictures of a Brentford scheme, a lame fans consultation that had little merit other than to tick a box at FL headquarters, two Fans group representatives that said they have seen something but don't know where it is but cant tell anyone anyway,add to that meetings said to have happened that seemingly never did followed by one that did in March that was not followed up according to the council concerned as yet. Hardly convincing is it. Surely they need the fans on board with their plan?

Whats this fair deal then? Are the club prepared to commit to such a deal? Are the club able to spend money to make the deal work or do they expect it for free? Were the corporate suites available to the club in the first place or had they been booked out prior to the clubs return? SW says the club has a good working relationship with Wasps is that not the case then?

Why would I be in the know? Seems to me if I question something at the football club that you tend to jump to try to discredit what I ask with fanciful notions of my involvement with certain parties but not others. You do not know me, never met me so you can not know one way or another. I assume you have your own reasons for doing so rather than sticking to a decent discussion

So lets clear this up. I work for none of the parties involved never have. I am not connected to any of the parties involved. Why would they need to run their confidential plans, figures etc past me - the notion is laughable, silly. I have not had any contact of any kind with any of the parties involved in this debacle during 2015. I have met face to face all sides during this dispute. I have had contact only once with CCC when I met Ann Lucas face to face - telling her whilst she may have had a business case the sale to Wasps was wrong and put CCFC & CRFC at risk, she should have thought again, the stadium should be CCFC's (doing somewhat more than the keyboard warriors on here I am sure) - there has been no other contact of any sort. In fact I have met the directors, owner and professionals acting for CCFC on far more occasions, the meeting I had with Seppala leaving me troubled and not surprised by what has happened since. I assume that must mean I am also not working for but connected to CCFC/SISU then?

I think what all that does give me is the benefit of a balanced amount of information and from that a more balanced platform from which to ask my questions. All the meetings were private which is why I have not mentioned any details and I will not be disclosing any other details now or in the future. Do I trust everything I have been told by any of the sides? No that's why I ask questions. Are most questions directed at CCFC ? Well yes its a CCFC forum isn't it?

I have spent my own time finding out, trying to get a balanced view and making my own mind up. Frankly I have no time to be involved in silly games revolving around CCFC/CCC/Wasps etc nor was I ever..... I have a business to run, a family I am immensely proud of ,love and want to be with, and a life of my own to lead. Hopefully I have helped the fans understand and question more which has been my only objective. Do I mind them questioning the information or opinions in my posts not at all, snide remarks that's a different matter.

There are a number of good contributors to this site, I don't always agree with them but I respect their opinion, and their willingness to discuss and debate properly

I wont be making any further comments to justify the reasons for the questions I ask, the explanations I give or the opinions I express. People can take or leave what I say, accept it or reject it. To paraphrase a famous line from a movie "frankly I don't give a damn"

PUSB

 

[chiefdave]

One thing I take from OSB's posts is that if the people of Coventry hadn't rushed in their thousands to go and see Wasps they might be in a somewhat trickier position and therefore we might have a shot at getting at least part ownership of the Ricoh.

Can't imagine people rushing to buy bonds if the attendances at the first few matches had just a few thousands they'd driven up from London on free coaches.