December Stadium Deadline (9 Viewers)

[armybike]

Logically there should be more chance of a team that has been established for longer in the City than the franchise. We do have 130 years on them after all.

Therefore logically the CCFC gates should be greater than 11k. The belief that most people care about the club is misplaced.

 

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[Grendel]

Therefore logically the CCFC gates should be greater than 11k. The belief that most people care about the club is misplaced.

Really? How many supporters would wasps attract in the third tier of the Rugby League do you think?

The other thing that occurs to me is would a CCFC fan say the things you say?

The answer is no so piss off there's a good chap.

 

[italiahorse]

The desire for wasps to fail is perfectly understandable. It is understandable on both an emotional and practical level. The emotion is clear - it is not hard to see why sections of the fan base would not resent a club being franchised into the area, especially given the circumstances of the clubs own move two years ago. I would suggest the opposition has been far more placid than a lot of clubs.

On a practical level it's difficult to see how the clubs position could be worsened by their demise. Certainly having to rely on them as landlords given their own tenous grasp on financial stability and valuing customer loyalty is far from ideal.

As regards "dicking around" who knows who approached who first. There is suggestions that Richardson targeted the Ricoh even before taking over wasps. One thing we do know is that the council did not offer to sell their share and that the club were told £6 million was a reasonable offer for half the ground.

The club didn't move to Northampton for 3 years. I suggest your briefing consultant on CCFC should be fired for that one.

Keeping details secret of course raises suspicion. The council having assured taxpayers ACL was profitable and then breaking even was exposed as a deceit. Public assets should have details shown or is their something to hide? It seems the move to ensure the details of West Ham's purchase of the rights to run the Olympic Stadium may open a door that can be pursued by others to find out the details.

The comparison with the clubs deal is an absurd side swipe and I think you'll find most of the deal is open. The boys that aren't will be tied into the restrictions imposed by the council.

The last paragraph assumes a big if. The big if actually is if wasps want the club around. They have the right to terminate after two years - not the club. If they were so interested in retaining the club long term why would they impose this?

Wasps like sisu make big promises. New training ground, regeneration, never playing on Saturdays, never leaving their heartland in the London area. Sadly they seem to have the same short term memory issues that Mr Fisher suffers from,

One thing they have done is cultivate the support of all local media channels to spread their message. The local paper is a slave to their propaganda messages and on CWR it's impossible to criticise them.

Even football forums are infiltrated with people peddling the wasps agenda in preparation for the day the club is booted out. Just so we know whose really to blame.

Isn't that right?

You try to offer an explanation but it's just another stretched out outburst of 'your opinion'.

 

[torchomatic]

Maybe. However I think if push came to shove and there was a chance that the club were going to go under then we'd have a lot of support. I still don't think long term that Wasps will keep the crowds they are getting now.

And, once again, don't forget it's not just people in the City that support (or not) the club.

Therefore logically the CCFC gates should be greater than 11k. The belief that most people care about the club is misplaced.

 

[Grendel]

You try to offer an explanation but it's just another stretched out outburst of 'your opinion'.

Just lolling at that

- wasps the richest club in Europe
- mark my words the train station will be up and running by December
- wasps will tire of our litigation
- we are already past the point we can negotiate
- Land Rover are sponsoring the stadium

Blah blah blah

 

[italiahorse]

Just lolling at that

- wasps the richest club in Europe
- mark my words the train station will be up and running by December
- wasps will tire of our litigation
- we are already past the point we can negotiate
- Land Rover are sponsoring the stadium

Blah blah blah

You have even stretched out my opinion longer than I did.
PS Can't remember the bit about the station !!

 

[martcov]

How could it have been made before they came? Wasps Holdings have the right to terminate the arrangement after two years. Why is the clause their if they didn't want it?

Because the rental agreement was made before they came and they took it over. I am surprised that it has not been renegotiated since the takeover. That would be in both parties interest.

 

[martcov]

As of course was "we need to build bridges" "ACL is making a profit" "ACL is washing it's face"

All those assertions were bollocks weren't they? Who said them, in all this excitement I've forgotten.

Still doesn't get Tim off the hook does it? Problem being that Tim is more connected to CCFC than the ex landlords.

 

[Grendel]

Because the rental agreement was made before they came and they took it over. I am surprised that it has not been renegotiated since the takeover. That would be in both parties interest.

Was it? Do you have any evidence?

 

[Calista]

Would you be saying the same if we moved back to Northampton? Would you expect their fans to have the same attitude if we did?

Wasn't their a petition when they moved to Coventry? I work with a couple of ex-wasps fans who turned their backs on the club after they moved.

If that is your attitude to the situation, then you have no right to complain of we become a franchise ourselves then, especially if it offers to take us to the next level.

Of course I’d have a right to complain! I said Wasps shouldn’t have left London, but they did and it was the resulting mess that turned them into a franchise. CCFC fans would be united in uproar, unlike Wasps followers who were divided because of the nature of their club’s situation, and couldn’t muster more than a whimper. The Ricoh move is not the crime against humanity that it’s made out to be on here.

I not trying to be confrontational here – I do understand your view and would totally agree if Wasps fans had taken up arms. But it’s a cause without a rebel! Honestly - does the overall reaction of Wasps fans suggest that a club has been ripped from its traditional community leaving thousands in turmoil? That’s what happened with Wimbledon to MK, and CCFC to Northampton. There’s no hypocrisy in seeing a difference.

 

[armybike]

Maybe. However I think if push came to shove and there was a chance that the club were going to go under then we'd have a lot of support. I still don't think long term that Wasps will keep the crowds they are getting now.

And, once again, don't forget it's not just people in the City that support (or not) the club.

People are appethetic. Verbal support or signing a petition is one thing, but if it was a choice between CCFC going under or people having to put their hand in their pocket and put in the commitment to go to games, then I just can't see them doing it.

They'd shrug, say "Oh that's a shame, my Grandad followed them" and move on with their lives.

Yep, I fully agree that people outside of the city follow CCFC and the effort some put in to get to games should be highly commended, but I can't see a new surge of people/kids outside of the city picking CCFC as their club, only those with some connection already in place.

The fact there is such a following outside of the city only goes to demonstrate even more so the level of, or more lack of, interest in the club from within the city.

I'm not trying to be dismissive of either the club or those that are fans/supporters but I just think it's about being realistic.

I'd love more people to be engaged, for the numbers to increase during the good and bad times, but people just don't seem to want to. Is that bad press? Bad results? Lack of funds? Lack of interest? Lack of time? Supporting other teams/sports? The image of football? I'm not sure, maybe factors of some for different people, but as things stand I can't see the citizens of Coventry being the saviours of CCFC.

However, let's hope the situation never needs to be tested!

 

[armybike]

Of course I’d have a right to complain! I said Wasps shouldn’t have left London, but they did and it was the resulting mess that turned them into a franchise. CCFC fans would be united in uproar, unlike Wasps followers who were divided because of the nature of their club’s situation, and couldn’t muster more than a whimper. The Ricoh move is not the crime against humanity that it’s made out to be on here.

I not trying to be confrontational here – I do understand your view and would totally agree if Wasps fans had taken up arms. But it’s a cause without a rebel! Honestly - does the overall reaction of Wasps fans suggest that a club has been ripped from its traditional community leaving thousands in turmoil? That’s what happened with Wimbledon to MK, and CCFC to Northampton. There’s no hypocrisy in seeing a difference.

Very good post.

"But it’s a cause without a rebel!"

 

[martcov]

Was it? Do you have any evidence?

Only that we were told that CCFC came back on a 2 year contract with an option for a further 2 years. As that was with ACL, Wasps being the owners of ACL, would have to honour it. I have not heard to the contrary, but I was on the road a lot in the summer and may have missed something. Do you have evidence that Wasps have changed the contract? It certainly doesn't seem that Wasps imposed the right to terminate.

 

[italiahorse]

Was it? Do you have any evidence?

The agreement between CCFC and ACL was made before Wasps took over.

 

[Grendel]

Only that we were told that CCFC came back on a 2 year contract with an option for a further 2 years. As that was with ACL, Wasps being the owners of ACL, would have to honour it. I have not heard to the contrary, but I was on the road a lot in the summer and may have missed something. Do you have evidence that Wasps have changed the contract? It certainly doesn't seem that Wasps imposed the right to terminate.

It has been confirmed that he 2 year option is from Wasps end not ours - OSB highlighted this some time ago

 

[Grendel]

The agreement between CCFC and ACL was made before Wasps took over.

Irrelevant - the deal OSB referred to is the one Wasps signed

 

[skybluetony176]

How could it have been made before they came? Wasps Holdings have the right to terminate the arrangement after two years. Why is the clause their if they didn't want it?

He's saying that the deal was signed before Wasps took over ACL. Which it was. So how could it be on Wasps insistence? You weren't present at the negotiations for the return as neither was I. It's just as likely one of our incompetents asked for a two year break (keeping up the premise of building a new) only not being smart enough to make sure that arrangement is in our favour. In fact wasn't it sold to us as being in our favour only for the Wasps bond prospective to confirm otherwise? I have visions of TF reading it in the CT then reading back over what he'd signed and going, SHIT!

Either way building a new ground or not we should have come back on a ten year deal the fact that we didn't was short sighted by our owners and a good indication of how long term they view the clubs usefulness to them. Never planning further forward than two years at a time.

 

[Grendel]

He's saying that the deal was signed before Wasps took over ACL. Which it was. So how could it be on Wasps insistence? You weren't present at the negotiations for the return as neither was I. It's just as likely one of our incompetents asked for a two year break (keeping up the premise of building a new) only not being smart enough to make sure that arrangement is in our favour. In fact wasn't it sold to us as being in our favour only for the Wasps bond prospective to confirm otherwise? I have visions of TF reading it in the CT then reading back over what he'd signed and going, SHIT!

Either way building a new ground or not we should have come back on a ten year deal the fact that we didn't was short sighted by our owners and a good indication of how long term they view the clubs usefulness to them. Never planning further forward than two years at a time.

Incredible when the going gets tough for Wasps people like you, Italia, Martcov all appear together.

Why is that do you think?

 

[italiahorse]

Incredible when the going gets tough for Wasps people like you, Italia, Martcov all appear together.

Why is that do you think?

Social media ?

The going isn't tough for Wasps though. Thats the problem.
Sisu are acting as if they have a say in CCFC future at the Ricoh even though they will be dragging them through the courts.
Somewhere along the way you have lost your hate of Sisu and transferred it to Wasps.

 

[skybluetony176]

Incredible when the going gets tough for Wasps people like you, Italia, Martcov all appear together.

Why is that do you think?

No actual response to the obvious point I'm making then? Its funny how when the going gets tough for SISU you stop forming an argument (if most of the nonsense you come out with can actually be classed as an argument) and go straight for the distraction of an insult.

Why is that do you think?

 

[Grendel]

No actual response to the obvious point I'm making then? Its funny how when the going gets tough for SISU you stop forming an argument (if most of the nonsense you come out with can actually be classed as an argument) and go straight for the distraction of an insult.

Why is that do you think?

You are not making a point but an assumption. No one knows why the club returned and who decided on the arrangement - It's actually stupid to suggest he club insisted on a severance clause in favour of the other party especially as the club stated they wanted a five year stay. So with respect its not an obvious point at all but a stupid one.

Still Italia liked your post so you are in good company

 

[martcov]

No actual response to the obvious point I'm making then? Its funny how when the going gets tough for SISU you stop forming an argument (if most of the nonsense you come out with can actually be classed as an argument) and go straight for the distraction of an insult.

Why is that do you think?

exactly. I pointed out that the deal was done with ACL - before Wasps owned ACL. That is a fact and therefore Wasps did not impose the right to terminate. It was already agreed to by TF signing the rental agreement. That was neither pro or anti Wasps - just a statement of fact or rather a correction of Grendel. Facts are always useful in a discussion.

 

[martcov]

You are not making a point but an assumption. No one knows why the club returned and who decided on the arrangement - It's actually stupid to suggest he club insisted on a severance clause in favour of the other party especially as the club stated they wanted a five year stay. So with respect its not an obvious point at all but a stupid one.

Still Italia liked your post so you are in good company

I thought the extra year ( the fifth one ) was mentioned by TF at a later date - after signing the deal - when the Stadium plan started to get to the point that it could never be completed in time - if the plan ever existed.

 

[torchomatic]

That's the thing though, isn't it? You're one of those who think things have to be mutually exclusive. I blame and hate all those who have been involved in our downfall be that SISU, CCC, ACL, Higgs or Wasps. They're all to blame and they've all fucked us over.

Somewhere along the way you have lost your hate of Sisu and transferred it to Wasps.

 

[italiahorse]

That's the thing though, isn't it? You're one of those who think things have to be mutually exclusive. I blame and hate all those who have been involved in our downfall be that SISU, CCC, ACL, Higgs or Wasps. They're all to blame and they've all fucked us over.

But at some point you will need to move on.
We all know how we got here but we need to forget the past as it does nothing.
We need to concentrate on things we can influence.
Somehow we need to get from Sisu what the new stadium plan is and compare it to any Ricoh plan.
JR1 and JR2 will not change the stadium ownership even if Sisu win.

 

[torchomatic]

And maybe you should move on from mentioning "JR" or "court case" in every post. Whilst you're at it move on from telling us how marvellous Wasps are. I'm not interested in Wasps.

And actually, I don't want to "move on". Our club has been wrecked for generations to come. Why should I want to forget that?

B
JR1 and JR2 will not change the stadium ownership even if Sisu win.

 

[Grendel]

exactly. I pointed out that the deal was done with ACL - before Wasps owned ACL. That is a fact and therefore Wasps did not impose the right to terminate. It was already agreed to by TF signing the rental agreement. That was neither pro or anti Wasps - just a statement of fact or rather a correction of Grendel. Facts are always useful in a discussion.

How do you know it's a fact? How do you know the terms only applied when wasps purchased ACL

Can you or Tony provide a link to the contracts please?

 

[italiahorse]

And maybe you should move on from mentioning "JR" or "court case" in every post. Whilst you're at it move on from telling us how marvellous Wasps are. I'm not interested in Wasps.

So you want to ignore the court cases ?
Turn a blind eye to one thing that is stopping any working relationship with Wasps?
Where do I keep praising Wasps, other than saying we should work with them ?

 

[torchomatic]

Funny how you're choosy about what you want to "move on" from.

So you want to ignore the court cases ?
Turn a blind eye to one thing that is stopping any working relationship with Wasps?
Where do I keep praising Wasps, other than saying we should work with them ?

 

[armybike]

That's the thing though, isn't it? You're one of those who think things have to be mutually exclusive. I blame and hate all those who have been involved in our downfall be that SISU, CCC, ACL, Higgs or Wasps. They're all to blame and they've all fucked us over.

It could be argued that all these parties had involved in the situation, but surely the fact our owners, as custodians of CCFC, have had any involvement is the biggest issue?

I'm not a fanboi of any of those mentioned (despite what people may think/assume) and whilst firing a shot at another party is one thing, turning the gun on yourselves is in a different league!

 

[oldskyblue58]

Just to clear a couple of points

CCFC return deal was signed with ACL, which of course is now owned by Wasps Holdings, prior to the takeover. It is difficult to believe that Wasps did not know the terms of the arrangement before they bought the two sets of shares however - it would have been part of the due diligence process. Also difficult to think given the closeness of events that such a deal wasn't discussed as part of negotiations. Were the various or any terms insisted on by Wasps? we will probably never know

I think it was in the SCG minutes or even the CT that it was confirmed that the option was at ACL's choice (Wasps choice by way of ownership). That is worrying and there appears to be no movement to enact that extension or reach a new arrangement. Don't have time to check through to give link sorry.

CCFC did indeed sign a three year arrangement at Sixfields http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/23163594 They didn't utilise it obviously. Did they have to compensate Cardoza/Northampton etc for not doing so?

In terms of ticket take up for Wasps perhaps Simon or someone at the CT could simply ask Wasps the question "how many season tickets have you sold?"

 

[skybluetony176]

You are not making a point but an assumption. No one knows why the club returned and who decided on the arrangement - It's actually stupid to suggest he club insisted on a severance clause in favour of the other party especially as the club stated they wanted a five year stay. So with respect its not an obvious point at all but a stupid one.

Still Italia liked your post so you are in good company

I was making a point about your assumption and offering an alternative assumption. I was quite clear on that in my original post, I wasn't trying to dress it up as fact unlike yourself.

I never suggested that the club had insisted on a clause in someone else's favour. I'm suggesting that it's possible that TF wanted a two year deal with an option of two years as part of the "we are building a new" illusion but not being smart enough to make sure that the clause is in our favour.

He didn't want an extra year on top of the two plus two year deal until much later. There was never any suggestion that we were looking for a five year deal in the first place but all we could negotiate was a two plus two year deal in the first place. Unless of course you can prove otherwise.

 

[chiefdave]

Imagine CCFC at premier league level? A premier league football club vs a premier league rugby club? No comparison - like comparing an elephant to a mouse. Problem is the mouse holds the keys to the house.

There seems to be this idea from some that Wasps can't do without us and will be accomodating to our needs. I'm not sure how true that is.

From what we are led to believe we are paying rent of £100K a year. That equates to £4,347 per game if we don't get any home cup draws, less if we do. We know that we only have very limited access before and after the games. Its also safe to say matchday costs have been increased this year to give ACL a bigger margin. Even Clive Eakin passed comment that CWR couldn't have the parking spaces they require at the ground as the cost to the football club to purchase those spaces has greatly increased this season. We also know, from ACL's past performance, that ACL don't make a huge amount of money on F&B when we are playing there.

So the question become what do they lose if they kick us out. I don't think they lose on the PR front, it will be spun as being all SISU's fault and the majority will lap that up. So they lose £4,347 in rent on a matchday. How much did Insomnia pay to hire the Ricoh? Is the fact that we have to have primacy linked to that event moving to the NEC? Is ACL losing out on other weekend events due to our fixtures? It may well be the case that financially ACL, and ultimately Wasps, are better off if we aren't there anymore. As we all know from their move to Coventry Wasps have little regard for the impact on their own fanbase let alone ours if there is a financial benefit for them.

Now the one benefit that could be argued Wasps have by keeping us at the Ricoh is they have more control over us and can keep us down. Most people have limited disposable income and if we were to get to the PL the tickets would not be cheap. We're told the majority attending Wasps games are from CV post codes, how many would switch to football if we had some success? I would suggest that if the deal on F&B is in line with what we have been told in the past it is much more beneficial to Wasps to have people attending their own games and taking ticket money off them then it is selling them a pie and pint at our games. Without access to all the figures its hard to be sure but it is very much a possibility.

There's certainly an arguement to be made that success for us would be bad for Wasps.

 

[italiahorse]

Funny how you're choosy about what you want to "move on" from.

No I'm saying that if you can't do anything about it move on.
We need to pressurise Sisu somehow about the new stadium.
People seem to be holding back off Sisu in a vague hope that they win the JR and be given the stadium.

I'm clear what I want.
Drop the stadium talk and the JR's and work with Wasps and somehow just maybe we have a chance.

 

[Chipfat]

I agree Torch, all in turn have fucked us over, but i cant get passed thinking Sisu are the biggest culprits, they had the keys to the door, they had multiple options to buy into the ricoh, the right way the open way and honest way.. They picked to go down the road of the bully and got caught, which stopped any honesty or openness between the parties that should of worked together to create a stronger club..

From day 1 Sisu should of kept the money tight showed they could run a viable business, with a future built around the academy to stabilize the club. Then in time got round the table with a plan, even if it was to purchase to sell for profit. This is old ground i suppose and either way we have to face facts, we are still in the shit, with no ground and owners that seem to stumble from one mess to another. They only seem keen to misdirect with Court cases, appeals, threatening statements in the press, false dates, false pictures of made up grounds, talks with councils with developers the list goes on, but time will come when TF has to answer straight questions, not hide behind his big secret.. Where is it going to be built, when is it going to be Built, who is paying for it to be built, who owns it and how much rent will the club pay, are question's that have to be addressed and answered openly and honestly.

Fans need to know, but while TM is doing well results are giving people like TF space and freedom to go VIP to most games without having to give answers to deadlines he set himself. Sisu need to build or stop moaning about the problems they have been apart of creating, if they don't build, leave or find a solution that allows them to give the club the best chance of success where they currently are. Easier said then done, granted but for the sake of everyone's sanity and to allow us to get off this merry go round we seem to have been on for the last 8-9 years,, now that would be nice..