Paint money run out? (9 Viewers)

[italiahorse]

It isn't either or, they can still enjoy the football and have an opinion on something else. Surely you aren't that dim you can't understand that?

It just gets a bit boring and not very constructive.
Just wish they would be a bright light like you and discuss sensibly how we could move this on.................... click.

 

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[Nick]

It just gets a bit boring and not very constructive.
Just wish they would be a bright light like you and discuss sensibly how we could move this on.................... click.

ha I like it, says the bright light middle aged man who sat making gifs saying SISU were saving us. Like a 13 year old girl does for 1 Direction.

If it was at Ryton, I am sure you and a couple of others would have had something to say about a random door frame not being painted (it's just a door frame whether at the Ricoh or Ryton).

 

[italiahorse]

ha I like it, says the bright light middle aged man who sat making gifs saying SISU were saving us. Like a 13 year old girl does for 1 Direction.

If it was at Ryton, I am sure you and a couple of others would have had something to say about a random door frame not being painted (it's just a door frame whether at the Ricoh or Ryton).

Never once mentioned the state of Ryton.
You keep using other people comments to make a vague point against me.

By the way it looks more like a picture frame. Perhaps waiting for the restocking of yellow and gold paint and this years team photo once the team is back from the world cup.

 

[Nick]

Perhaps waiting for the restocking of yellow and gold paint and this years team photo once the team is back from the world cup.

They had better laminate you a copy then.

 

[chiefdave]

Don't you think that the teams swapped changing rooms because rugby teams have a lot more players to cater for, players that are a lot bigger and get more injuries that need treating ?

We didn't swap changing rooms we were kicked out of ours and dumped into a smaller one, at the same time losing the use of the warm up facilities.

 

[Astute]

It isn't either or, they can still enjoy the football and have an opinion on something else. Surely you aren't that dim you can't understand that?

You are allowed any opinion that you want. That is as long as it includes having a go at CCC and Wasps. Someone just said that The worst thing SISU did was take over this club thinking there was a loyal fan base. We all know it isn't true in the slightest. But those that would have had you straight away if you said anything against SISU never said a word.

 

[skybluetony176]

You are allowed any opinion that you want. That is as long as it includes having a go at CCC and Wasps. Someone just said that The worst thing SISU did was take over this club thinking there was a loyal fan base. We all know it isn't true in the slightest. But those that would have had you straight away if you said anything against SISU never said a word.

That's a pretty unbelievable statement really by the OP. All things that SISU have done considered the fact that we have any fans left is testament to our fans loyalty. Only a dumb ass happy to make excuses for our owners behavior would see it any other way.

 

[italiahorse]

You are allowed any opinion that you want. That is as long as it includes having a go at CCC and Wasps. Someone just said that The worst thing SISU did was take over this club thinking there was a loyal fan base. We all know it isn't true in the slightest. But those that would have had you straight away if you said anything against SISU never said a word.

To be honest there are people on here that still think Sisu are not the main culprits for loosing the Ricoh.
They just can't come out directly and say it so resort to every opportunity to pick up on any possible negative about Wasps.
As you say an almost complimentary Sisu comment goes uncontested by the few but it does not stop them criticising those that pick SBZ up on his post or pass alternative comments on the OP.

 

[SkyBlueZack]

To be honest there are people on here that still think Sisu are not the main culprits for loosing the Ricoh.
They just can't come out directly and say it so resort to every opportunity to pick up on any possible negative about Wasps.
As you say an almost complimentary Sisu comment goes uncontested by the few but it does not stop them criticising those that pick the OP up on his post.

No party is any better than the other in this mess. The main culprits in my opinion are the Council, swiftly followed by Richardson and co, then SISU and then Wasps. All played their part in where we are now. Our fans are apathetic. For example, Manchester United fans were unhappy with the debt loaded onto the club with the Glazers takeover. There were protests and FC United was born. Compare that to our situation. Our local council happily squeezed a million a year out of the club for rent along with directors before SISU agreeing with this. Said council then were appalled at SISU moving us to Northampton but happily accepted a london based rugby team into the Ricoh which threatens the future of both the local football and rugby teams who have a rich history and tradition. Clubs to be proud of. Some of our fans response is then to go and watch the London rugby team. Doesn't seem particuarly loyal to me, just my perspective.

 

[italiahorse]

No party is any better than the other in this mess. The main culprits in my opinion are the Council, swiftly followed by Richardson and co, then SISU and then Wasps. All played their part in where we are now. Our fans are apathetic. For example, Manchester United fans were unhappy with the debt loaded onto the club with the Glazers takeover. There were protests and FC United was born. Compare that to our situation. Our local council happily squeezed a million a year out of the club for rent along with directors before SISU agreeing with this. Said council then were appalled at SISU moving us to Northampton but happily accepted a london based rugby team into the Ricoh which threatens the future of both the local football and rugby teams who have a rich history and tradition. Clubs to be proud of. Some of our fans response is then to go and watch the London rugby team. Doesn't seem particuarly loyal to me, just my perspective.

I think you have only read the Sisu boardroom minutes and forgot a lot of relevant stuff.

The council baled us out when they completed the stadium and the rent would represent an adequate contribution to ACL costs in those early years. Without the council the Ricoh would not exist and we would have had no stadium to play in.

Relegation to L1 meant we could not afford the rent OR to buy into ACL.
Sisu by their own admission couldn't afford to run ACL unless CCC gave up the Freehold and chucked out all the existing businesses.

CCFC management before Sisu started the rot because their stadium plan never took into consideration relegation from the PL.
Sisu took it to new levels and the fact they took us to Northampton means they will NEVER be forgiven by the majority of fans.

Can you answer the question ........ What should the council have realistically done ? ......................................anyone ?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Without the council the Ricoh would not exist and we would have had no stadium to play in.

Point of order but, whilst the first point is probably true, the second point isn't.

 

[Nick]

Can you answer the question ........ What should the council have realistically done ? ......................................anyone ?

Let ACL continue to wash it's face, the owners will go from CCFC where new owners could have then gone about purchasing ACL / the Ricoh.

 

[italiahorse]

Let ACL continue to wash it's face, the owners will go from CCFC where new owners could have then gone about purchasing ACL / the Ricoh.

ACL would have gone bankrupt long before any new owners. Anyway what new owners ?
Now answer realistically.

 

[Nick]

ACL would have gone bankrupt long before any new owners. Anyway what new owners ?
Now answer realistically.

They wouldn't as they were going from strength to strength.

The new owners that were more likely with the chance of buying the stadium (the same as the ones around the time of SISU coming in who were put off because they couldn't) than ones who won't be as likely to now.

Unless we are hoping Wasps are our new owners, the ones who don't care about their fans, move clubs etc etc. Sounds familiar.

I like the bit about never forgiving SISU for moving us to Northampton for a year and a bit, yet Wasps are the next best thing now they have moved here full time. Ironic.

 

[italiahorse]

They wouldn't as they were going from strength to strength.

The new owners that were more likely with the chance of buying the stadium (the same as the ones around the time of SISU coming in who were put off because they couldn't) than ones who won't be as likely to now.

Unless we are hoping Wasps are our new owners, the ones who don't care about their fans, move clubs etc etc. Sounds familiar.

I like the bit about never forgiving SISU for moving us to Northampton for a year and a bit, yet Wasps are the next best thing now they have moved here full time. Ironic.

Take it from me. ACL went very close to going bust.
If you can accept that then tell me what should the council have done ?
Alternatively if you can't accept what I tell you just answer the question with that scenario.

 

[italiahorse]

They wouldn't as they were going from strength to strength.

The new owners that were more likely with the chance of buying the stadium (the same as the ones around the time of SISU coming in who were put off because they couldn't) than ones who won't be as likely to now.

Unless we are hoping Wasps are our new owners, the ones who don't care about their fans, move clubs etc etc. Sounds familiar.

I like the bit about never forgiving SISU for moving us to Northampton for a year and a bit, yet Wasps are the next best thing now they have moved here full time. Ironic.

Where did I say Wasps are the best thing now ?
Try answering the question without keep coming back to wasps.

 

[Nick]

Take it from me. ACL went very close to going bust.

Did the Wasps big wig tell you that then?

If they were going bust they should have put it on the open market to the highest bidder.

 

[italiahorse]

Did the Wasps big wig tell you that then?

If they were going bust they should have put it on the open market to the highest bidder.

No, it came from ACL. The accounts also show they were struggling.
I thought there was only one bidder.
CCFC couldn't afford it, bid for it unemcumbered or without the freehold.
... or was that the Sisu bluff that led the council to taking the Wasps offer and jumping ship?

 

[Nick]

No, it came from ACL. The accounts also show they were struggling.
I thought there was only one bidder.
CCFC couldn't afford it, bid for it unemcumbered or without the freehold.
... or was that the Sisu bluff that led the council to taking the Wasps offer and jumping ship?

Was it on the open market to only get one bidder then?

Put down what the buyer gets, sealed envelopes the best offer gets it.

I thought ACL said they were going from strength to strength? Or are they bullshitters too like SISU?

 

[italiahorse]

Was it on the open market to only get one bidder then?

Put down what the buyer gets, sealed envelopes the best offer gets it.

I thought ACL said they were going from strength to strength? Or are they bullshitters too like SISU?

Try and use a bit of common sense.
If ACL were struggling why would admit it whilst Sisu were waiting for them to fold.
It was a game of bluff and Sisu were part of it saying they could hold out and finance it etc.

Wasps caught everybody out and it solved CCC's dilema and CCFC came home as the gamble was lost by Sisu.

 

[chiefdave]

Getting a strange feeling of deja vu but I'll bite.

The council baled us out when they completed the stadium and the rent would represent an adequate contribution to ACL costs in those early years.

Adequate contribution? You can't be serious. We were pretty much single handedly cover all the debt ACL had.

Without the council the Ricoh would not exist and we would have had no stadium to play in.

We would have stayed at HR and I suspect would have at some point exercised the buy back clause.

Can you answer the question ........ What should the council have realistically done ? ......................................anyone ?

At what point? Let's start from when the first got involved.

They could have bailed out CCFC and loaned them the money to exercise the buy back clause. We know they aren't averse to a bail out.

Alternatively they could have loaned CCFC the money to complete the Ricoh.

They could have kept to the originalagreement giving CCFC a 50% stake in the freehold.

They could have set rent at a realistic, affordable level giving CCFC access to the money it generates.

They could have been prepared to talk with those parties interestedin taking over CCFC, at the point we ended up with SISU, who wished to purchase the ground as part of their takeover. Remember we ended up with SISU in no small part thanks to them being the owner of choice of CCC.

They could have entered talks with SISU honestly. Remember Fisher stating ACL were over reliant on CCFC, overcharging CCFC and not being run effectively. He was ridiculed on the basis of statements from CCC, Higgs and ACL. It was many years before we found out he was pretty much spot on. How different could things have been in CCC had taken an honest stance?

As part owners of ACL they could have applied pressure against ACL starting the process to put the club into admin.

As part owners of ACL they could have pushed for acceptance of the CVA, which would have avoided a points deduction.

They could have been honest and instead of insisting ACL was absolutelyfine without CCFC. I note that no disciplinaryaction has been taken against either Reeves or West who, according to Lucas, gave her hugely incorrect information.

When the decision was made that the sale of ACL was required they could have placed it on the open market to achievethe best return for the local taxpayer, allow all interested parties to bid and allow all impacted organisations (such as CRFC) to have their say.

Upon our return they should not have been claiming it was the start of a road to stadium ownership when they had, to all intents and purposes, already agreed a sale to Wasps.

Once it became apparent that CCC had been supplied with hugely inaccurate information, as Lucas herself stated, an independent review of the sale process shouldhave taken place to ensure everything was above board.

 

[italiahorse]

Getting a strange feeling of deja vu but I'll bite.



Adequate contribution? You can't be serious. We were pretty much single handedly cover all the debt ACL had.



We would have stayed at HR and I suspect would have at some point exercised the buy back clause.



At what point? Let's start from when the first got involved.

They could have bailed out CCFC and loaned them the money to exercise the buy back clause. We know they aren't averse to a bail out.

Alternatively they could have loaned CCFC the money to complete the Ricoh.

They could have kept to the originalagreement giving CCFC a 50% stake in the freehold.

They could have set rent at a realistic, affordable level giving CCFC access to the money it generates.

They could have been prepared to talk with those parties interestedin taking over CCFC, at the point we ended up with SISU, who wished to purchase the ground as part of their takeover. Remember we ended up with SISU in no small part thanks to them being the owner of choice of CCC.

They could have entered talks with SISU honestly. Remember Fisher stating ACL were over reliant on CCFC, overcharging CCFC and not being run effectively. He was ridiculed on the basis of statements from CCC, Higgs and ACL. It was many years before we found out he was pretty much spot on. How different could things have been in CCC had taken an honest stance?

As part owners of ACL they could have applied pressure against ACL starting the process to put the club into admin.

As part owners of ACL they could have pushed for acceptance of the CVA, which would have avoided a points deduction.

They could have been honest and instead of insisting ACL was absolutelyfine without CCFC. I note that no disciplinaryaction has been taken against either Reeves or West who, according to Lucas, gave her hugely incorrect information.

When the decision was made that the sale of ACL was required they could have placed it on the open market to achievethe best return for the local taxpayer, allow all interested parties to bid and allow all impacted organisations (such as CRFC) to have their say.

Upon our return they should not have been claiming it was the start of a road to stadium ownership when they had, to all intents and purposes, already agreed a sale to Wasps.

Once it became apparent that CCC had been supplied with hugely inaccurate information, as Lucas herself stated, an independent review of the sale process shouldhave taken place to ensure everything was above board.

Except Sisu were involved so most that does not apply.
Filed for later reading after watching paint dry.

 

[Nick]

I note that no disciplinaryaction has been taken against either Reeves or West who, according to Lucas, gave her hugely incorrect information.

The same Reeves who also witheld info about that merger with Lucas? Dream Team (Thats for the other thread though)

 

[Nick]

Except Sisu were involved so most that does not apply.
Filed for later reading after watching paint dry.

Why doesn't it apply?

 

[skybluetony176]

Was it on the open market to only get one bidder then?

Put down what the buyer gets, sealed envelopes the best offer gets it.

I thought ACL said they were going from strength to strength? Or are they bullshitters too like SISU?

Yes. Ann Lucas announced it on TV. It was in the papers and everything. How did you miss it? I believe AL even got on a train after making said announcement to go to London to see the horses mouth and discuss it. I guess SISU didn't want to make a bid. The old saying is true, you can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

 

[italiahorse]

Why doesn't it apply?

...... because they don't play to the rules and once Wasps were out the way they would continue plan A until ACL folded.

Don't be so naive.

 

[Nick]

...... because they don't play to the rules and once Wasps were out the way they would continue plan A until ACL folded.

Don't be so naive.

Naive? You have just had a decent reply but your answer is "yeah but sisu" and that you aren't interested in the reply.

Because everybody else has played to every single rule properly?

Who is saying anything about getting Wasps out of the way, people are on about putting it on the market so anybody could bid whether it is Sainsburys, Wasps, Tesco, SISU or anybody to get the best deal.

 

[chiefdave]

...... because they don't play to the rules and once Wasps were out the way they would continue plan A until ACL folded.

Don't be so naive.

Half the points I made referred to things before SISU arrived. Now SISU have been rubbish to say the least but I think its a bit of a stretch to blame them for things that happened before they were involved!

And why would Wasps be out of the way if an open and honest sale process was run? If anything there would be potential for the bids to rise as there would be people competing with each other. What if several other potential buyers came forward driving the price up and getting more money for the taxpayer, would that not have been a better result?

 

[Nick]

Half the points I made referred to things before SISU arrived. Now SISU have been rubbish to say the least but I think its a bit of a stretch to blame them for things that happened before they were involved!

And why would Wasps be out of the way if an open and honest sale process was run? If anything there would be potential for the bids to rise as there would be people competing with each other. What if several other potential buyers came forward driving the price up and getting more money for the taxpayer, would that not have been a better result?

It depends if they would use his car park as much.

 

[italiahorse]

Naive? You have just had a decent reply but your answer is "yeah but sisu" and that you aren't interested in the reply.

Because everybody else has played to every single rule properly?

Who is saying anything about getting Wasps out of the way, people are on about putting it on the market so anybody could bid whether it is Sainsburys, Wasps, Tesco, SISU or anybody to get the best deal.

Chief Dave just cut and pastes his old arguments so I knew what it was about without looking.
A bidding process would be okay but CCFC would not be the owners of the stadium and Wasps would always outbid CCFC.
We could even have a situation where say 'Someco' own it and rent it to both teams.
We might find out one day if Wasps gave a take it or leave it offer so avoiding a bidding process.
I suspect the 'Squabbling 6' on here would still moan if anybody but Sisu got it.
The best scenario would have been 50 50 between the 2 teams. We may still get that as we 'may' have a situation where neither team can't afford it but both can. If we ever get to the PL that option might be a goer if Wasps are struggling.

 

[covmark]

Bollocks to any bidding process. The council should have come to Ccfc and said "look we have been offered this by Wasps, can you match it, seeing as you are historically connected to the city".

Tbh though, this argument has been done to death thousands of times. Views are so entrenched on both sides, it's pretty pointless going over it all again.

 

[italiahorse]

Half the points I made referred to things before SISU arrived. Now SISU have been rubbish to say the least but I think its a bit of a stretch to blame them for things that happened before they were involved!

And why would Wasps be out of the way if an open and honest sale process was run? If anything there would be potential for the bids to rise as there would be people competing with each other. What if several other potential buyers came forward driving the price up and getting more money for the taxpayer, would that not have been a better result?

No sensible organisation would bid for a stadium without a team.
IMHO CCFC only came back because they got word of the Wasps bid.

 

[Nick]

Chief Dave just cut and pastes his old arguments so I knew what it was about without looking.
A bidding process would be okay but CCFC would not be the owners of the stadium and Wasps would always outbid CCFC.
We could even have a situation where say 'Someco' own it and rent it to both teams.
We might find out one day if Wasps gave a take it or leave it offer so avoiding a bidding process.
I suspect the 'Squabbling 6' on here would still moan if anybody but Sisu got it.
The best scenario would have been 50 50 between the 2 teams. We may still get that as we 'may' have a situation where neither team can't afford it but both can. If we ever get to the PL that option might be a goer if Wasps are struggling.

Ha squabbling 6, listen to you. You didn't know what it was at all as half of it was before sisu.

You have been given other options that could have been done and most would do but let's gloss over them so you can carry on.

You don't know wasps would outbid do you? There could have been other people not ccfc or wasps but that might be bad because you might lose trade.

 

[italiahorse]

Bollocks to any bidding process. The council should have come to Ccfc and said "look we have been offered this by Wasps, can you match it, seeing as you are historically connected to the city".

Tbh though, this argument has been done to death thousands of times. Views are so entrenched on both sides, it's pretty pointless going over it all again.

Can't see why that didn't happen.
However, if CCFC declined we would still have the same debate why CCC didn't give 'special' consideration to CCFC.
I also think Sisu's talk of freehold only and 'unencumbered' forced CCC's hand.

 

[italiahorse]

Ha squabbling 6, listen to you. You didn't know what it was at all as half of it was before sisu.

You have been given other options that could have been done and most would do but let's gloss over them so you can carry on.

You don't know wasps would outbid do you? There could have been other people not ccfc or wasps but that might be bad because you might lose trade.

Answer me one question.
Why did Sisu not bid more than Wasps for the Higgs share ?