torchomatic
Well-Known Member
Yes, it's a good article and echoes comments from many fans: stupid to leave HR, stupid to agree to an unsustainable rental model and CCC have to take their share of the blame.
Ooh, Grendel won't like that.
I have consistently said our future lies at the Ricoh and he's always maintained he would rather we played miles away with temporary stands at a non league ground.
This Port Vale chairman does make a lot of sense and it is rational. You will hardly find a single City fan anywhere who believes a new stadium will be built.
At the moment all we have is the Ricoh and that's it.
They do, Torch for sure.Yes, it's a good article and echoes comments from many fans: stupid to leave HR, stupid to agree to an unsustainable rental model and CCC have to take their share of the blame.
The millionaire says City’s problems started before Sisu took over the club and that the club “sold its soul” when it left Highfield Road and that the deal to play at the Ricoh Arena without matchday revenue was “crackers”.
“Unless you have a football club that is delivering both on the pitch and in terms of sitting in the stadium, and everyone has a collective aim, then no-one is going to buy it,” said the life-long City fan who points to the potential of the club highlighted by the 27,000 who turned up for the Sky Blues return to the Ricoh Arena from their Northampton exile.
“One thing I can guarantee is that working against the club won’t help in the long term because you won’t get the right person to come along to acquire it.
“There needs to be a concerted effort by the football club and the fanbase to both try to improve the fortunes on the pitch to help the revenues, because it means more people coming to watch, and demonstrate how big and great the club is to a third party prospective purchaser.
“For those that went to the Gillingham game when they returned to the Ricoh – what a fabulous occasion and atmosphere and game and that’s what you need to have to put the emotion into someone to actually write a cheque to buy the club.”
The Vale chairman believes City’s problems are historical.
“You have to look at the bigger picture and go back to 2005, and the decision made three or four years before that to get rid of Highfield Road,” he said.
“I remember when City beat Derby County 6-2 in the last game and it saddened me then that the then directors had sold their soul to the Devil, selling Highfield Road for development. I always thought that Coventry lost it’s community identity the minute they did that.
“I think fans have to go back to that decision.”
Smurthwaite says Coventry City Council must shoulder some of the blame for the club’s demise as politicians have “let the club down”.
“When you look at the splendid work that’s gone on in the city regarding regeneration or property and the area, I think the politicians have let the club down,” he said.
“I don’t think they understand the value of what the football club, which is a community club, does and they really haven’t made the right decisions over the last few years in relation to the club and the Ricoh. And those two things have contributed to the demise of the club and that was quite a few years from where we are now.
“Whoever signed off the deal to play at the Ricoh with no matchday revenue must have been crackers because without that third party income you can’t actually run a business.
you don't know what a blessing that is!Is that on the comments? My work PC blocks the comments so I can't see those.
Just to be clear as to what I did say
The club itself has no value as OEG t/a CCFC( - £1) what would need to be cleared in any deal is the debt due to ARVO. The capital outstanding is £8m plus rolled up interest. ARVO hold a charge over all assets of OEG Ltd and SBS&L. Could ARVO be cleared by 5 or 6m possibly, it depends on how keen they are to get out, or whether the news of Ryton gives them a prospect of a better return further down the line. The sticking point is ARVO not SISU but it would seem both are managed by Coleman & Seppala
other stuff
The Ryton land is as far as I know still owned by OEG and covered/charged to ARVO to secure the loans. It would require ARVO agreement to transfer that land to another entity even if it was an entity owned by SISU. It does not have planning permission yet so its value is current use at the moment. I would think that moving the Ryton ground out of OEG would significantly devalue the worth of CCFC. You can not have a professional football club without training ground arrangements - if they sold Ryton they have to buy a new ground or rent one, both options would lead to debt and increased overhead which affects cash flow profitability and worth.
I understand where Smurthwaite is coming from. You wouldn't offer it all up front if you were buying the shares in a normal situation, there would be long term income contracts, player assets, training ground arrangements etc etc that add worth. I query whether you buy the shares at all. If I was advising a client on buying this I would be looking for a one off payment and a clean break. I would seek to acquire the assets and the football liabilities and work with FL/FA to put it all in CCFC 2016 ltd. There is no way I would want ARVO/SISU anywhere near, no way I would want the ARVO (or any SISU related) charge to continue, no way I would want the preference shares, no way I would want the Sconset debt. But that would all be pretty much a deal breaker I would think, as would be the offer which would be £2m tops. I accept you have give some encouragement of perhaps a little now and more later in a normal situation. But is this a normal set up, doesnt a normal club have more than an internet presence ? Why would you pay a premium to get rid of SISU - its they who are in the hole not the potential buyers. Why would you pay them a reward for you turning it around when they have been abject and created the mess. People forget its not just about buying the club it is also about providing the working capital that follows. Got to take emotion out of it
You would not want to buy SBS&L and the only important creditor outside normal operations in OEG is ARVO. Sorry but anyone coming and looking at CCFC will have to hold their nerve and play a longer game - sorry guys but that means more heartache for the supporters, you have to play hardball because JS & co will look for weakness to drive a better bargain. Apparently according to some we are near break even, but that isn't break even is it, so there will be pressure for further funding, disposal of players etc which of course drives down overall business value and puts pressure on someone willing/needing to sell. SISU can probably just sit there, providing no more funding, but with the increase in player costs the lack of income solutions, lack of medium term security that is going to mean further decline for CCFC and the prospect of even smaller investor return - that would be their (SISU) choice
Just a thought 2008 SISU acquired the net assets less liabilities of CCFC for £570k cash then in 2013 Otium purchased the total assets of the club for £1.5m plus took on the football debts why in heavens name given the further decline, lack of assets, the fact we still don't make profits or breakeven would you even think about paying millions to acquire it. JS - well actually SBS&L or the ARVO/Sconset investors, might think they need more to go but that's their problem not a buyers problem and it is not going to happen.
As for them putting in £60m - we have been through this a number of times - they haven't. The SBS&L Group accounts show they haven't
I think nearly all of us agree with Smurthwaite on the building of a new stadium and how the original deal was set up.
The worry of course is that they (SISU) find a way to extract the development value of Ryton and go before providing similar standard facilities for the club. Anyone serious about progressing the club will want/expect decent training facilities. Ryton or its equivalent replacement is removed from this then CCFC is all but dead
Its all very well saying it would take 10m or 15m to keep JS happy for her to go , that actual value is irrelevant, but from a buyers point of view it is about what worth you get for £10m and the on going commitment they sign up for, they wont care if JS is happy or not. It can not be an emotional purchase but it must be an emotional commitment to the future from the get go
God your good OLDSKYBLUE 58Just to be clear as to what I did say
The club itself has no value as OEG t/a CCFC( - £1) what would need to be cleared in any deal is the debt due to ARVO. The capital outstanding is £8m plus rolled up interest. ARVO hold a charge over all assets of OEG Ltd and SBS&L. Could ARVO be cleared by 5 or 6m possibly, it depends on how keen they are to get out, or whether the news of Ryton gives them a prospect of a better return further down the line. The sticking point is ARVO not SISU but it would seem both are managed by Coleman & Seppala
other stuff
The Ryton land is as far as I know still owned by OEG and covered/charged to ARVO to secure the loans. It would require ARVO agreement to transfer that land to another entity even if it was an entity owned by SISU. It does not have planning permission yet so its value is current use at the moment. I would think that moving the Ryton ground out of OEG would significantly devalue the worth of CCFC. You can not have a professional football club without training ground arrangements - if they sold Ryton they have to buy a new ground or rent one, both options would lead to debt and increased overhead which affects cash flow profitability and worth.
I understand where Smurthwaite is coming from. You wouldn't offer it all up front if you were buying the shares in a normal situation, there would be long term income contracts, player assets, training ground arrangements etc etc that add worth. I query whether you buy the shares at all. If I was advising a client on buying this I would be looking for a one off payment and a clean break. I would seek to acquire the assets and the football liabilities and work with FL/FA to put it all in CCFC 2016 ltd. There is no way I would want ARVO/SISU anywhere near, no way I would want the ARVO (or any SISU related) charge to continue, no way I would want the preference shares, no way I would want the Sconset debt. But that would all be pretty much a deal breaker I would think, as would be the offer which would be £2m tops. I accept you have give some encouragement of perhaps a little now and more later in a normal situation. But is this a normal set up, doesnt a normal club have more than an internet presence ? Why would you pay a premium to get rid of SISU - its they who are in the hole not the potential buyers. Why would you pay them a reward for you turning it around when they have been abject and created the mess. People forget its not just about buying the club it is also about providing the working capital that follows. Got to take emotion out of it
You would not want to buy SBS&L and the only important creditor outside normal operations in OEG is ARVO. Sorry but anyone coming and looking at CCFC will have to hold their nerve and play a longer game - sorry guys but that means more heartache for the supporters, you have to play hardball because JS & co will look for weakness to drive a better bargain. Apparently according to some we are near break even, but that isn't break even is it, so there will be pressure for further funding, disposal of players etc which of course drives down overall business value and puts pressure on someone willing/needing to sell. SISU can probably just sit there, providing no more funding, but with the increase in player costs the lack of income solutions, lack of medium term security that is going to mean further decline for CCFC and the prospect of even smaller investor return - that would be their (SISU) choice
Just a thought 2008 SISU acquired the net assets less liabilities of CCFC for £570k cash then in 2013 Otium purchased the total assets of the club for £1.5m plus took on the football debts why in heavens name given the further decline, lack of assets, the fact we still don't make profits or breakeven would you even think about paying millions to acquire it. JS - well actually SBS&L or the ARVO/Sconset investors, might think they need more to go but that's their problem not a buyers problem and it is not going to happen.
As for them putting in £60m - we have been through this a number of times - they haven't. The SBS&L Group accounts show they haven't
I think nearly all of us agree with Smurthwaite on the building of a new stadium and how the original deal was set up.
The worry of course is that they (SISU) find a way to extract the development value of Ryton and go before providing similar standard facilities for the club. Anyone serious about progressing the club will want/expect decent training facilities. Ryton or its equivalent replacement is removed from this then CCFC is all but dead
Its all very well saying it would take 10m or 15m to keep JS happy for her to go , that actual value is irrelevant, but from a buyers point of view it is about what worth you get for £10m and the on going commitment they sign up for, they wont care if JS is happy or not. It can not be an emotional purchase but it must be an emotional commitment to the future from the get go
Just to be clear as to what I did say
The club itself has no value as OEG t/a CCFC( - £1) what would need to be cleared in any deal is the debt due to ARVO. The capital outstanding is £8m plus rolled up interest. ARVO hold a charge over all assets of OEG Ltd and SBS&L. Could ARVO be cleared by 5 or 6m possibly, it depends on how keen they are to get out, or whether the news of Ryton gives them a prospect of a better return further down the line. The sticking point is ARVO not SISU but it would seem both are managed by Coleman & Seppala
other stuff
The Ryton land is as far as I know still owned by OEG and covered/charged to ARVO to secure the loans. It would require ARVO agreement to transfer that land to another entity even if it was an entity owned by SISU. It does not have planning permission yet so its value is current use at the moment. I would think that moving the Ryton ground out of OEG would significantly devalue the worth of CCFC. You can not have a professional football club without training ground arrangements - if they sold Ryton they have to buy a new ground or rent one, both options would lead to debt and increased overhead which affects cash flow profitability and worth.
I understand where Smurthwaite is coming from. You wouldn't offer it all up front if you were buying the shares in a normal situation, there would be long term income contracts, player assets, training ground arrangements etc etc that add worth. I query whether you buy the shares at all. If I was advising a client on buying this I would be looking for a one off payment and a clean break. I would seek to acquire the assets and the football liabilities and work with FL/FA to put it all in CCFC 2016 ltd. There is no way I would want ARVO/SISU anywhere near, no way I would want the ARVO (or any SISU related) charge to continue, no way I would want the preference shares, no way I would want the Sconset debt. But that would all be pretty much a deal breaker I would think, as would be the offer which would be £2m tops. I accept you have give some encouragement of perhaps a little now and more later in a normal situation. But is this a normal set up, doesnt a normal club have more than an internet presence ? Why would you pay a premium to get rid of SISU - its they who are in the hole not the potential buyers. Why would you pay them a reward for you turning it around when they have been abject and created the mess. People forget its not just about buying the club it is also about providing the working capital that follows. Got to take emotion out of it
You would not want to buy SBS&L and the only important creditor outside normal operations in OEG is ARVO. Sorry but anyone coming and looking at CCFC will have to hold their nerve and play a longer game - sorry guys but that means more heartache for the supporters, you have to play hardball because JS & co will look for weakness to drive a better bargain. Apparently according to some we are near break even, but that isn't break even is it, so there will be pressure for further funding, disposal of players etc which of course drives down overall business value and puts pressure on someone willing/needing to sell. SISU can probably just sit there, providing no more funding, but with the increase in player costs the lack of income solutions, lack of medium term security that is going to mean further decline for CCFC and the prospect of even smaller investor return - that would be their (SISU) choice
Just a thought 2008 SISU acquired the net assets less liabilities of CCFC for £570k cash then in 2013 Otium purchased the total assets of the club for £1.5m plus took on the football debts why in heavens name given the further decline, lack of assets, the fact we still don't make profits or breakeven would you even think about paying millions to acquire it. JS - well actually SBS&L or the ARVO/Sconset investors, might think they need more to go but that's their problem not a buyers problem and it is not going to happen.
As for them putting in £60m - we have been through this a number of times - they haven't. The SBS&L Group accounts show they haven't
I think nearly all of us agree with Smurthwaite on the building of a new stadium and how the original deal was set up.
The worry of course is that they (SISU) find a way to extract the development value of Ryton and go before providing similar standard facilities for the club. Anyone serious about progressing the club will want/expect decent training facilities. Ryton or its equivalent replacement is removed from this then CCFC is all but dead
Its all very well saying it would take 10m or 15m to keep JS happy for her to go , that actual value is irrelevant, but from a buyers point of view it is about what worth you get for £10m and the on going commitment they sign up for, they wont care if JS is happy or not. It can not be an emotional purchase but it must be an emotional commitment to the future from the get go
Thanks OSB great post.
So is it a case of waiting for sisu to accept they have lost this investment and decide to go?
As if I understood it right it would take 1-2mil to make a clean slate for any potential buyers.
We know there are buyers but it's what sisu want and what the buyers want to pay of course. I do also agree get rid of ryton and forget any buyer. Any buyer will want a training facility and also a ground. Ground won't happen but the training ground is there. Don't sell it for housing for gods sake.
The investors are the only ones who will have sway, she doesn't appear to be able to listen to advice or have any natural common sense.Someone has to convince JS (a very stubborn person from what I know) that its over and the investment is lost. Yes there are buyers out there but they are not going to want to buy in and accept the debts.
Only OK to sell it for housing IF another plot has been bought and a new clubhouse built. A new clubhouse with offices, training rooms, gyms, physio facilities is going to cost at least £1M possibly more!
The investors are the only ones who will have sway, she doesn't appear to be able to listen to advice or have any natural common sense.
But worth every penny if it got rid of SISUI don't like his idea of tying in payments based on promotion to the Championship. We're going to struggle as it is should that miracle ever happen, without having to write off a portion of the reward.
So do we just sit and wait OSB? Literally can't do anything until joy and her investors have had enough and willing to take the hit?
In theory there will be circumstances that allow ARVO to call their loan in. For example the interest that is due is not paid and ARVO decide that they don't want to roll it up again. That means CCFC have a choice ARVO puts them in to administration or Otium sell off Ryton to settle the debt demanded (or at least part of it). Of course that would mean the planning permission was in place so giving it extra value.
What you also need to recognise is that say ARVO are owed £8m plus £2m interest and Ryton raises £7m ........ the ARVO debenture could still stay in place even after talking £7m because ARVO would still be owed the balance
Could sisu keep the training ground? And sell it to potential buyers as part of the club?
Also it's rugby council isn't? Can't we just ask them nicely to keep the land green belt. They the fuckers can't build on it.
But worth every penny if it got rid of SISU
Was an interesting read this article and interview with the smurf. Personally at the moment Sisu would be lucky to get £6-7m imo. Interesting to see that he says something I mentioned about the investors. They would want out as they aren't making any money on this hedge. You wouldn't want to be the last investor in the pot.
Smurf believes there are potential buyers out there. That is true. The problem is always what Sisu want and actually what the club is worth now.
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/football/coventry-city-owners-sisu-sell-11973299
Surely the FA or FL need to step in here if the training facilities could be hived off as part of the debt recovery. Appreciate it 'technically' isn't part of CCFC as SISU have moved those chess pieces elsewhere on the board but as you previously stated CCFC cannot exist without a training facility and therefore surely this makes them unfit owners?? Clearly they will not step in until after the horse has bolted and by then its all too late but you would think its within their power to intervene??I think as fans we need to feel we are doing something, make our feelings known, that must continue, we have to fight for our club. For that to be seen is as important as going to matches in some ways. But the reality has always been and remains until SISU decide to go, decide they have extracted all possible value from CCFC then they will not leave. Hence why people come on here having spoken with TF saying in their opinion it will take £10m plus for JS to decide to go irrespective of worth. They (SISU) have no plan to exit yet.
Going to get worse I fear
Surely the FA or FL need to step in here if the training facilities could be hived off as part of the debt recovery. Appreciate it 'technically' isn't part of CCFC as SISU have moved those chess pieces elsewhere on the board but as you previously stated CCFC cannot exist without a training facility and therefore surely this makes them unfit owners?? Clearly they will not step in until after the horse has bolted and by then its all too late but you would think its within their power to intervene??
Surely the FA or FL need to step in here if the training facilities could be hived off as part of the debt recovery. Appreciate it 'technically' isn't part of CCFC as SISU have moved those chess pieces elsewhere on the board but as you previously stated CCFC cannot exist without a training facility and therefore surely this makes them unfit owners?? Clearly they will not step in until after the horse has bolted and by then its all too late but you would think its within their power to intervene??
but what qualifies for being suitable, Wasps trained at Broadstreet RC so would that be suitable? The move devolves the club to a non league team and surely they need to step in and stop that?They cannot sell without alternate facilities in place - Sport England and FL have said this
There is no sale or sign of one. It was only putting a stake in the ground for the local strategy plan
I am sure if Simon wanted to he would report this as such so the question is - Why won't he?
Yes we need a clean break. But SISU won't go without payment. So I would prefer a lower payment and money remaining to invest in us getting promotion and then another payment than a large payment and no money left to invest to help getting promotion.To be left with a rented stadium with no concourse revenue, a potentially rented training ground, an outsourced ticket and merchandise set up and any/some of the financial benefit to getting promoted siphoned off to SISU. We need to get rid of SISU but this method is condemning the club to years of obscurity in the absence of silly money to throw at it - I disagree with the 'at any cost' approach. Needs to be a clean break for me without the SISU spectre still hanging over us.
but what qualifies for being suitable, Wasps trained at Broadstreet RC so would that be suitable? The move devolves the club to a non league team and surely they need to step in and stop that?
I am sure if Simon wanted to he would report this as such so the question is - Why won't he?
I hope your right but I bet they have a monumental plan of fucking us over before leaving....You know and I know there are codified regulations on this
They cannot stop something that is not happening - so they do not have to
Because it doesn't get people as angry as saying it is for sale for houses?
I hope your right but I bet they have a monumental plan of fucking us over before leaving....
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