5 at the back? (11 Viewers)

[rob9872]

But still much better than Wright which is the worry

I'm not sure there was anything to choose. The only thing I'd say is Wright clearly wasn't fit. He shouldn't have stayed on but hopefully the minutes in his legs will be a benefit going forward. It should also put to bed the Norman No Goals experiment until next season as he wasn't any better or ready in his latest cameo.

 

---

[stupot07]

What run ?
We've just won 9 from 11 playing two different systems. Like I've said in other threads at this point of the season just play your players in form . 5 at the back means dropping EMC and Sakamoto which would be madness .
For me just a bit better game management and stopping the stupid fouls around our own box would be a good start .

Sunderland
Burnley
Sheffield United
West Brom

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Sunderland
Burnley
Sheffield United
West Brom

If we’re still in the top 6 after those games that’s where we’re finishing.

 

[Chicken Mcgraw]

Back 5 is definitely the way to go for now, harsh on EMC and Sakamoto but has to be done:

Wilson
Thomas Binks Kitching
MVE Eccles Sheaf Torp Bidwell
Simms Asante

 

[JSL]

You know it’s funny, saw a Fifa recreation having us as a 5-4-2-1, dug deeper and can see this formation used at least on football websites for Preston and Oxford and found the attached video commenting on our 3-4-2-1 shape.

Noted as being this when attacking
Dovin
Thomas-Kitching-Bidwell
Milan - Eccles - Grimes - Rudoni
Saka - EMC
Simms

And then a 4-4-2 when defending. Sadly don’t think we’ve got anyone who can play the Rudoni role.

Are FIFA allowing us 12 in our side then?

 

[Sky Blue Goblin]

Are FIFA allowing us 12 in our side then?

Yeah I meant 3-4-2-1. Can’t be arsed to edit tho

 

[shmmeee]

Having three shit CBs instead of two doesn’t help, our wingbacks were getting caught up the field and no one knew where to be. We played some teams on absolutely honking runs with 5ATB, and the football was dreadful. I’d rather not if we don’t have to.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Parking the argument about the defence for a minute, I do have some questions currently about our attack. Simms for me has had a long run in the team, but hasn't looked that useful for a while. Our wingers, mainly EMC and Sakamoto, have been instrumental in us scoring goals. Switch the formation and surely you leave less players higher up the pitch to work with Simms, and remove the effective wingers we have in the process.

On top of this, MvE has looked a lot better recently, and is starting to rebuild that connection with Sakamoto again. I appreciate the left side of defence is a problem, but as we have just gone on a crazy winning run, to change this after one loss does seem to be a bit of a panic move. The goals we have conceded have been stupid, rather than down to be being tactically outdone. In fact, we could probably do a shittest goal of the season to concede video as there have been so many this year all following a similar theme. We get complacent, we switch off, someone does something stupid.

I understand the arguments as to why people think this may be a good idea, but I personally wouldn't want to change the formation just yet.

 

[TomRad85]

Parking the argument about the defence for a minute, I do have some questions currently about our attack. Simms for me has had a long run in the team, but hasn't looked that useful for a while. Our wingers, mainly EMC and Sakamoto, have been instrumental in us scoring goals. Switch the formation and surely you leave less players higher up the pitch to work with Simms, and remove the effective wingers we have in the process.

On top of this, MvE has looked a lot better recently, and is starting to rebuild that connection with Sakamoto again. I appreciate the left side of defence is a problem, but as we have just gone on a crazy winning run, to change this after one loss does seem to be a bit of a panic move. The goals we have conceded have been stupid, rather than down to be being tactically outdone. In fact, we could probably do a shittest goal of the season to concede video as there have been so many this year all following a similar theme. We get complacent, we switch off, someone does something stupid.

I understand the arguments as to why people think this may be a good idea, but I personally wouldn't want to change the formation just yet.

Agreed ESB. I'd be very tempted to try BTA for Simms now, we'd have to change how we play a bit but Simms needs some time out of the starting 11. Obviously you'd bring in EMC and Dasilva for Sunderland too, that left side was shocking yesterday.
Most goals conceded seem to be either just straight up avoidably shit whatever the formation is, or a complete balls up by the ever decreasing in quality match officials, who seem to be getting huge decisions wrong every single game which is frankly unacceptable.

 

[PVA]

None of our strikers are able to receive the ball with back to goal and hold it up.

Simms is probably the best at it, which is saying something because he traps it further than he can kick it.

 

[Gibbo]

I think it’ll be knee jerk to change anything too much. Form has been fantastic.

Tonight wasn’t much to do with formations but more about a higher number of their players being up for it compared to ours.

Persisting with Haji was the wrong decision too, way off it tonight but atleast he’ll have some more sharpness from that

Two goals a game in three games on the bounce since we reinstated four at the back and against bang average opposition. The stats don't lie. And three really soft goals from set pieces. This run was built on 3 central defenders. It ain't pretty but it works. K and T are just not good enough to be the only two central defenders.

 

[Grendel]

Having three shit CBs instead of two doesn’t help, our wingbacks were getting caught up the field and no one knew where to be. We played some teams on absolutely honking runs with 5ATB, and the football was dreadful. I’d rather not if we don’t have to.

What do you think most teams are like in this league?

Most are much of a muchness. The top 3 are miles ahead of everyone other than possibly Sunderland.

After that it’s pretty mediocre. Few points separating a lot of teams.

It’s the teams that dig results out that will be in 5th and 6th.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Two goals a game in three games on the bounce since we reinstated four at the back and against bang average opposition. The stats don't lie. And three really soft goals from set pieces. This run was built on 3 central defenders. It ain't pretty but it works. K and T are just not good enough to be the only two central defenders.

It’s easy to knee jerk into switching to a back 3 but things could’ve panned out very differently in certain games playing 5-3-2. With Grimes’ role as a half back, we held a shape identical to 3 CBs anyway - the ‘meta’ 3-2-5 attacking shape that’s popular atm. The issue was just how much space we gave away between the lines and this was something that was picked up on a tactical analysis I shared post-Stoke win. Take it for what it is, the run wasn’t going to last forever and think we need to make some tactical tweaks to generate chances in the box (non-crosses).

This run was built on scoring the first goal in matches. We looked positive and well in control until we went 1-0 and then it all fell apart and we seemingly lost the ability to do basic things.

As good as we’ve been lately, we’ve been too reliant on scoring from crosses so when we went 1-0 down last night, Derby just packed the box and you had Simms and Wright on their own against 3 CBs.

 

[RoboCCFC90]

Think it's needed without Rudoni.

Totally agree it's needed, but not because we are missing Rudoni, because we are missing EMC.

As I referred to in another post, I would've gone 5-3-2 last night with Torp behind Haji and Simms.

 

[clint van damme]

It’s easy to knee jerk into switching to a back 3 but things could’ve panned out very differently in certain games playing 5-3-2. With Grimes’ role as a half back, we held a shape identical to 3 CBs anyway - the ‘meta’ 3-2-5 attacking shape that’s popular atm. The issue was just how much space we gave away between the lines and this was something that was picked up on a tactical analysis I shared post-Stoke win. Take it for what it is, the run wasn’t going to last forever and think we need to make some tactical tweaks to generate chances in the box (non-crosses).

This run was built on scoring the first goal in matches. We looked positive and well in control until we went 1-0 and then it all fell apart and we seemingly lost the ability to do basic things.

As good as we’ve been lately, we’ve been too reliant on scoring from crosses so when we went 1-0 down last night, Derby just packed the box and you had Simms and Wright on their own against 3 CBs.

When you concede 2 goals in 3 games in succession to suggest reverting to a formation that had us looking more solid defensively isn't really knee jerk.

 

[shmmeee]

Not sure we did look more solid did we? Felt at the times the clean sheets were more down to Dovin than the CBs or shape. We’ve got two first choice CBs with all the awareness and positional sense of a dead pigeon, that’s the problem. Adding Latibeaudiere to them doesn’t change that.

 

[clint van damme]

Not sure we did look more solid did we? Felt at the times the clean sheets were more down to Dovin than the CBs or shape. We’ve got two first choice CBs with all the awareness and positional sense of a dead pigeon, that’s the problem. Adding Latibeaudiere to them doesn’t change that.

We definitely looked more solid.
Yes Dovin made some good saves but the idea that a championship side shouldnt concede any chances isn't living in the real world.

Conceding 2 per game was a big problem earlier in the season and we need to nip it in the bud now it's happening again if we want top 6.

 

[TomRad85]

Think the left side is the real issue, getting absolutely terrorised every game. Says it all that i think Dasilva is the better of the 2 at the moment. Should have been addressed in the summer, then again in Jan. But here we are.

 

[stupot07]

When you concede 2 goals in 3 games in succession to suggest reverting to a formation that had us looking more solid defensively isn't really knee jerk.

And those 3 games were all against bottom 6 sides.

 

[stupot07]

Think the left side is the real issue, getting absolutely terrorised every game. Says it all that i think Dasilva is the better of the 2 at the moment. Should have been addressed in the summer, then again in Jan. But here we are.

The left sides the issue because neither EMC or Wright (or BTA) work back, meaning regardless of whether it's Dasilva or Bidwell, the left full back is exposed. Compare that to the defensive work rate Sakamoto puts in.

 

[TomRad85]

The left sides the issue because neither EMC or Wright (or BTA) work back, meaning regardless of whether it's Dasilva or Bidwell, the left full back is exposed. Compare that to the defensive work rate Sakamoto puts in.

I don't think its just that tbh, i don't think they are good enough. But i'd go with Dasilva for a bit now as what i saw from Bidwell last night was criminal.

 

[edgy]

If playing 5ATB means Asante is starting and Sakamoto & EMC are not, then no thanks.

 

[clint van damme]

The left sides the issue because neither EMC or Wright (or BTA) work back, meaning regardless of whether it's Dasilva or Bidwell, the left full back is exposed. Compare that to the defensive work rate Sakamoto puts in.

I can't help but think it's tactical.
I don't watch Lampard all through the game but I glance to the bench occasionally and I've never seen him digging out the left sided forward for not getting back but I have seen him dishing out bollockings to others but maybe I've just missed him doing it to EMC and Co.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

When you concede 2 goals in 3 games in succession to suggest reverting to a formation that had us looking more solid defensively isn't really knee jerk.

We won two of those games so what you’re actually suggesting is that we chuck the baby out with the bath water over one loss. Again, in possession, Grimes was stood in the middle of Thomas and Kitching. In transition, the defensive shape was undistinguishable from playing with 3 CBs. The issues last night, were no different from, say, the Sheffield Wednesday away game.

Winning 3-2 is no different to winning 2-1 in principle so if we’re scoring more goal playing 4-2-3-1, which we are… it’s 6 and two 3s.

In any case, putting Lati/Binks in the team ahead of Sakamoto doesn’t strike me as the best option from an attacking perspective. A midfield 3 of Grimes, Allen and Torp doesn’t do it for me if we don’t have wingers or Rudoni.

 

[Hincha]

In this run

Back 5 -
P7 W6 D0 L1 GF10 GA 5
- 4 clean sheets
- 1.43 goals per game scored
- 0.72 goals per game conceded.

Back 4 -
P4 W3 D0 L1 GF8 GA 7
- 0 clean sheets
- 2 goals per game scored
- 1.75 goals per game conceded

Verging on manipulating statistics to suit - but I think most agree Leeds was an anomaly and the rest of the teams we've played are outside the top 6. So if you take that game out it is:

P6 W5 D0 L0 GF10 GA3
- 1.66 goals scored per game
- 0.5 goals conceded per game

Conceding 1.25 goals more per game is a massive gap. Difference between conceding 23 goals (Even if you account for Leeds it is 33 goals) or 81 goals over the course of a season

 

[clint van damme]

We won two of those games so what you’re actually suggesting is that we chuck the baby out with the bath water over one loss. Again, in possession, Grimes was stood in the middle of Thomas and Kitching. In transition, the defensive shape was undistinguishable from playing with 3 CBs. The issues last night, were no different from, say, the Sheffield Wednesday away game.

Winning 3-2 is no different to winning 2-1 in principle so if we’re scoring more goal playing 4-2-3-1, which we are… it’s 6 and two 3s.

In any case, putting Lati/Binks in the team ahead of Sakamoto doesn’t strike me as the best option from an attacking perspective. A midfield 3 of Grimes, Allen and Torp doesn’t do it for me if we don’t have wingers or Rudoni.

Yeah, we won, but we've got tough games coming up. We can't leave ourselves needing to score 3 goals.
Because winning 3-2 is no different to winning 2-1 but if you keep conceding 2 goals you won't always score 3.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

If playing 5ATB means Asante is starting and Sakamoto & EMC are not, then no thanks.

There’s a misdiagnosis of the problem. It’s not so much conceding 2 goals. It was conceding the first goal. We were obviously going to be more open at the back when chasing a goal, then two.

Looking at our run of 9 wins in 12, we’ve only dropped points once when scoring first, Norwich away. The other two losses, we conceded first and if you’ve look at most of our results, when we’ve conceded first, we drop points and win when we score first.

Notwithstanding, the 5-3-2 formation didn’t magically turn around the form on its own. It was a framework that allowed the personnel to thrive. Rudoni had free rein to roam and create overloads in the wide channels and he was an essential characteristic in that setup. As was Allen as a covering DM. However, a system without Rudoni, Sakamoto and EMC is not sensible because they’re our main creators of chances and Allen, Eccles or Trop aren’t filling those gaps.

It’s one loss, people need to relax.

 

[Jamesimus]

Again, in possession, Grimes was stood in the middle of Thomas and Kitching.

Just to pick up on this, he often starts there picking a ball up from a CB, but then he will drift forwards more than a third centre back would.

If we lose possession high up the pitch, that’s where the third CB becomes a massive help.

 

[Sky Blue Goblin]

I know I’ve already put in on here but there’s more than one way to skin a cat in Regard to a back three.

Looking at: QPR, Preston and Oxford. It looks like we played a back three in all which then converted to a back four in defence.

Looking at it we’ve only played a proper 4-3-3 the last two games which hasn’t gone brilliantly.

 

[Lamps]

Yeah, we won, but we've got tough games coming up. We can't leave ourselves needing to score 3 goals.
Because winning 3-2 is no different to winning 2-1 but if you keep conceding 2 goals you won't always score 3.

We wouldn't have conceded 2 goals last night from the only 2 shots on target if the officials were competent.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Yeah, we won, but we've got tough games coming up. We can't leave ourselves needing to score 3 goals.
Because winning 3-2 is no different to winning 2-1 but if you keep conceding 2 goals you won't always score 3.

That’s correct, but we still need to score and without our top 3 assisters, you’re limiting yourself.

3 of the 6 goals conceded have come from set pieces so it’s not indicative of a complete formation breakdown. Would playing Lati for Sakamoto be worth the trade off? Not for me.

 

[stupot07]

That’s correct, but we still need to score and without our top 3 assisters, you’re limiting yourself.

3 of the 6 goals conceded have come from set pieces so it’s not indicative of a complete formation breakdown. Would playing Lati for Sakamoto be worth the trade off? Not for me.

You could argue having 3 centre halves helps at set pieces. Also would we have given freekicks away in those areas if we had had 5 at the back instead of left wingers that dont work back, leaving the left fullback area exposed.

We managed to score 10 in those 7 games in this run with 5 at the back, and only failed to score in th 1 game which is we Leeds. So scoring goals wasn't an issue. Importantly we kept 4 cleansheets - that's a guaranteed 4 points in the bag before you score.

We're currently playing 4231 with Eccles out of position in the 10.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Just to pick up on this, he often starts there picking a ball up from a CB, but then he will drift forwards more than a third centre back would.

If we lose possession high up the pitch, that’s where the third CB becomes a massive help.

I know I’ve already put in on here but there’s more than one way to skin a cat in Regard to a back three.

Looking at: QPR, Preston and Oxford. It looks like we played a back three in all which then converted to a back four in defence.

Looking at it we’ve only played a proper 4-3-3 the last two games which hasn’t gone brilliantly.

View attachment 42015View attachment 42016View attachment 42017

We’ve attacked more or less the same way in 2025.

5-3-2 would end up being a 3-2-5 in attack as well as playing 4-2-3-1/4-3-3. We have also leave ourselves quite vulnerable defensively with space that’s left between the lines. Even playing 5-3-2, there were many transitions where we’d lose the ball and we’d have the back 3 and Allen to cover a counter attack. Now, it’s Eccles/Torp to cover that space between the attacking team and Thomas, Grimes and Kitching.

There could be a case for 3-4-3, but that also limits the bodies we have centrally which can stretch the CMs apart and leave gaps there.

I want to see us play Grimes, Torp and Allen for the Sunderland match and see how the balance is affected there. It’s nothing against Eccles, it’s just Allen covers more distance which is what we need if we’re leaving so much space.

There’s also tactical tweaks to be made because we really struggled to pull apart Derby’s low block last night after they went 1-0 up. A credit to Eustace’s coaching to be fair.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

You could argue having 3 centre halves helps at set pieces. Also would we have given freekicks away in those areas if we had had 5 at the back instead of left wingers that dont work back, leaving the left fullback area exposed.

We managed to score 10 in those 7 games in this run with 5 at the back, and only failed to score in th 1 game which is we Leeds. So scoring goals wasn't an issue. Importantly we kept 4 cleansheets - that's a guaranteed 4 points in the bag before you score.

We're currently playing 4231 with Eccles out of position in the 10.

We scored 10 goals… how many were assisted by Rudoni?

The way the CMs operate is similar to how they operated in the 5-3-2. In both systems, they push high up and leave big gaps between the DMs. Grimes’ is tweaked compared to Allen’s but the LCM and RCM are expected to operate the same way. The difference is that Rudoni is a lot better than Eccles in creating chances.

Eccles isn’t playing at all. In a set defensive structure he does push up to make a 4-4-2 which a lot of 4-3-3 teams do (Spain in the Euros for example). His role is reminiscent of how Potchettino used Conor Gallagher. In attack, the shape is very much a 3-2-5. The wingbacks overlap the RW/LW, with the LCM and RCM high up and one of the wingers (usually the one opposite where the ball is) and joins the lone striker in the box.

In theory, trading a CB for a winger would improve set piece defence. Assuming this would cut out the set piece goals conceded, are you willing to accept the trade off that comes with taking a winger off for a CB? My view is that a 5-3-2 doesn’t work without Rudoni. Eccles, Torp, Grimes, Bidwell and MVE do not have the assists to convince me. Without Rudoni, EMC and Sakamoto are our top assisters.

 

[Winny the Bish]

Currently the left-sided CM (Rudoni/Eccles) has been the one joining Simms in pressing from the front. It may just be as simple as switching that presser to Torp and having the LCM stay back and help the LB out more.

We know Saka will work hard to help MVE and that right flank is solid. I'm pissed off with him for being hurt all the time, but Sheaf is one of the best ball-winning midfielders in the league. We need him on the pitch helping out Bidwell/Dasilva.