5 at the back? (1 Viewer)

[DT-R]

I don’t know how you say our form has been far from fantastic when we’ve just strung more wins together in a 10 game period than any point in our history

Wins don't = fantastic form. In our 9/11 wins, we played well against Blackburn and Swansea, 2 teams in current appalling form. We were out possessed at home by another poor form team Watford but managed to grind out a win. We were absolutely dog shit v Leeds. We outplayed Preston, but in typical fashion for this season, gifted them an easy goal and made what should've been a comfortable victory hardwork. We managed to beat Wednesday JUST, from a GK error at the death. We also made hard work of beating both Oxford and Stoke, 2 poor teams with poor form. And the least said about last night the better. In 11 games, we played well for 2, looked good and scraped through for 1, managed to grind out wins playing average in 6, and was absolutely dog shit in 2. That is NOT "fantastic form"!
I'm not knocking it, I'd rather win and play bad than play well and lose (like we're used to) but nobody can say we've had "fantastic form" when in reality, we haven't even had good form. We've been bang average at best, grinding out wins in what is a very poor league this season.

Sent from my SM-S711B using Tapatalk

 

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[wingy]

I’ve only seen Derby’s second goal live and the posts obstructed my view, have you seen anything conclusive on social media (or Sky) which shows the ball out of play?

Where the player crosses the ball in his left foot is planted no more than 8inches inside the line his other foot is contacting the ball which is 1foot to 18 inches away.

 

[stupot07]

Updated:

Back 5 -
P7 W6 D0 L1 GF10 GA 5
- 4 clean sheets
- 1.43 goals per game scored
- 0.72 goals per game conceded.

Back 4 -
P6 W4 D0 L2 GF12 GA 10
- 1 clean sheets
- 2 goals per game scored
- 1.66 goals per game conceded

 

[wingy]

Updated:

Back 5 -
P7 W6 D0 L1 GF10 GA 5
- 4 clean sheets
- 1.43 goals per game scored
- 0.72 goals per game conceded.

Back 4 -
P6 W4 D0 L2 GF12 GA 10
- 1 clean sheets
- 2 goals per game scored
- 1.66 goals per game conceded

For away games yeah, bit Naive to go suicidal away, but I'm not not a philosopher.

 

[fernandopartridge]

I think we need to pivot back to it away from home. Would also consider using it at home depending on the opposition. We're just so open to conceding 'on the transition'.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I think we need to pivot back to it away from home. Would also consider using it at home depending on the opposition. We're just so open to conceding 'on the transition'.

Why? Our opponents away from home are: Plymouth, Hull and Luton.

I don’t think playing 5 at the back would’ve made a difference v Sheff U. We conceded a fantastic goal from a FK against a team that thrives on countering, the primary issue for me was that we didn’t create chances to score.

The formula under Lampard has been simple so far: score first and win. In Lampard’s 21 game tenure so far:

Record when scoring first:
W - 12
D - 0
L - 2

Record when conceding first:
W - 1
D - 2
L - 4

It might seem a bit reductive but given how statistically important the first goal is in football, it makes sense. This trend is consistent even pre-Lampard (5 points from 9 when conceding first).

If anything, Lampard’s ‘flaw’ is how can he impact the game when we’re trailing and this can take time to develop as it did under MR when he first joined.

 

[wingy]

Where the player crosses the ball in his left foot is planted no more than 8inches inside the line his other foot is contacting the ball which is 1foot to 18 inches away.

Going back to this we should use it lambast the officials more.
We can determine accuracy from the still,there applications that do this, let's go the full hog on it!!

 

[Sky Blue Goblin]

Key word has to be flexibility.

Under Lampard, we’ve played three different formations. We’ve played the 4/3/3, 5/3/2 and the 3/4/3.

The 4-3-3 and 3-4-3 have been more attacking with a view to keep possession but not an obsession as more then happy to use the width or target forward to go long if needs be. Not my picture but shows the point.



The Back five means we keep our direct but drop the lines and lose our control. Think both are good and we should be flexible between the two. Although not sure we should be wiling to lose control at home as I know the pressure is a lot to manage.



Not my pictures as taken from the total football analysis on Lampard here and agree with a lot of the points here

Frank Lampard Tactics At Coventry City 2024/2025 – Tactical Analysis

After sacking club legend Mark Robins in November, the Coventry City board wanted to appoint a manager with fresh ideas

totalfootballanalysis.com

 

[wingy]

So,all teams apparently have to do is out physical us and have a bit of luck with decisions,who out our upcoming games are going to do this.Then we have the answer to where we finish.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Key word has to be flexibility.

Under Lampard, we’ve played three different formations. We’ve played the 4/3/3, 5/3/2 and the 3/4/3.

The 4-3-3 and 3-4-3 have been more attacking with a view to keep possession but not an obsession as more then happy to use the width or target forward to go long if needs be. Not my picture but shows the point.

View attachment 42287

The Back five means we keep our direct but drop the lines and lose our control. Think both are good and we should be flexible between the two. Although not sure we should be wiling to lose control at home as I know the pressure is a lot to manage.

View attachment 42288

Not my pictures as taken from the total football analysis on Lampard here and agree with a lot of the points here

Frank Lampard Tactics At Coventry City 2024/2025 – Tactical Analysis

After sacking club legend Mark Robins in November, the Coventry City board wanted to appoint a manager with fresh ideas

totalfootballanalysis.com

I’ll definitely give that a read, looks v interesting.

As for the case of 5-3-2x I don’t see how dropping Saka and EMC to play Binks/Lati and Simms is the answer for me. Neither MVE or Bidwell/JDS are good enough as creators and I don’t think the defence is that much stronger.

Against Burnley, I’d like to see us play Simms with Wright playing LW. EMC’s form has dipped a little bit and thought Simms was a handful when he came on. Given the volume of crosses we put in, having both Simms and Wright in the box makes sense.

 

[Sky Blue Goblin]

I’ll definitely give that a read, looks v interesting.

As for the case of 5-3-2x I don’t see how dropping Saka and EMC to play Binks/Lati and Simms is the answer for me. Neither MVE or Bidwell/JDS are good enough as creators and I don’t think the defence is that much stronger.

Against Burnley, I’d like to see us play Simms with Wright playing LW. EMC’s form has dipped a little bit and thought Simms was a handful when he came on. Given the volume of crosses we put in, having both Simms and Wright in the box makes sense.

I would agree that against Burnley, a 4-3-3 would be the way to go, it’s more so for me that we can change shape to clog teams out and frustrate them.

Wednesday is a great example as they struggled to create anything as they focus on the attacking in the transition. Burnley could be one where we start as a 4-3-3 and as the game goes on make the subs to move to a back three.

One of the things I’d love Lampard to do, is change shape while winning to a back three like how we did from a 5-3-2 to a 5-4-1 once the game gets to the 65-75 min mark and players get tired

 

[stevefloyd]

Key word has to be flexibility.

Under Lampard, we’ve played three different formations. We’ve played the 4/3/3, 5/3/2 and the 3/4/3.

The 4-3-3 and 3-4-3 have been more attacking with a view to keep possession but not an obsession as more then happy to use the width or target forward to go long if needs be. Not my picture but shows the point.

View attachment 42287

The Back five means we keep our direct but drop the lines and lose our control. Think both are good and we should be flexible between the two. Although not sure we should be wiling to lose control at home as I know the pressure is a lot to manage.

View attachment 42288

Not my pictures as taken from the total football analysis on Lampard here and agree with a lot of the points here

Frank Lampard Tactics At Coventry City 2024/2025 – Tactical Analysis

After sacking club legend Mark Robins in November, the Coventry City board wanted to appoint a manager with fresh ideas

totalfootballanalysis.com

The biggest problem on the 1st picture is EMC don't know the offside rule

 

[stupot07]

Updated:

Back 5 -
P7 W6 D0 L1 GF10 GA 5
- 4 clean sheets
- 1.43 goals per game scored
- 0.72 goals per game conceded.

Back 4 -
P7 W4 D0 L3 GF13 GA 12
- 1 clean sheets
- 1.86 goals per game scored
- 1.7 goals per game conceded

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Updated:

Back 5 -
P7 W6 D0 L1 GF10 GA 5
- 4 clean sheets
- 1.43 goals per game scored
- 0.72 goals per game conceded.

Back 4 -
P7 W4 D0 L3 GF13 GA 12
- 1 clean sheets
- 1.86 goals per game scored
- 1.7 goals per game conceded

Have you got average league position in there too?

 

[fernandopartridge]

Have you got average league position in there too?

Conceded two against Derby and Oxford

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Why we would go to a back 5 with the attacking talent we have seems totally mental to me.

We're shit at the back regardless of whether we have 4 there or 14. Might as well try and outscore the opponent.

Unfortunately the last few games have been exclusively against top table competition. Don't think it means too much. I for one hope we go all out in the next few games and don't go defensive just because it didn't work out against them.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Why we would go to a back 5 with the attacking talent we have seems totally mental to me.

We're shit at the back regardless of whether we have 4 there or 14. Might as well try and outscore the opponent.

Unfortunately the last few games have been exclusively against top table competition. Don't think it means too much. I for one hope we go all out in the next few games and don't go defensive just because it didn't work out against them.

We've lost 3 of the last 4 games including to the bottom club.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

We've lost 3 of the last 4 games including to the bottom club.

We've lost to a vastly superior Sheffiled United. We were very close against Burnley. Derby was a total shit show, but is the only one we should be really pissed about.

We don't need to rip things up because we've played two of the standout teams in the league and lost. The calls for Collins over Wilson. Sheaf to be back. 5 at the back reimplemented etc. It's all overblown ridiculousness and extremely knee-jerk.

We are hitting the panic button for reasons that are not strong enough in my opinion.

 

[stupot07]

Conceded two against Derby and Oxford

And Stoke who were bottom 3 at the time.

 

[Hincha]

Today will be a blessing if Frank realises we’re fucked playing a 4 away from home - no point getting to the play offs as we’ll crumble in the away leg with how we’re playing

5-3-2 against Luton, stay solid, hit the channels, match their battle

 

[wingy]

Today will be a blessing if Frank realises we’re fucked playing a 4 away from home - no point getting to the play offs as we’ll crumble in the away leg with how we’re playing

5-3-2 against Luton, stay solid, hit the channels, match their battle

It won't be learned I'm afraid,and we aren't going to make it.

 

[stupot07]

I've been saying it for weeks won't happen though.

 

[lord_garrincha]

Today will be a blessing if Frank realises we’re fucked playing a 4 away from home - no point getting to the play offs as we’ll crumble in the away leg with how we’re playing

5-3-2 against Luton, stay solid, hit the channels, match their battle

Need Thomas back...

I shudder with both Lati & Binks in a 3... both would be awful.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Another loss and we trot out the same lazy trope that playing 5 at the back would magically work. Our record with 5-3-2 was against teams mostly above us.

 

[Hincha]

Need Thomas back...

I shudder with both Lati & Binks in a 3... both would be awful.

Put it in the match thread but we won games during our winning run with both/either Lati & Binks in a 3

Think I prefer it to Lati in a 4

Agree we need Thomas back though

 

[fernandopartridge]

Another loss and we trot out the same lazy trope that playing 5 at the back would magically work. Our record with 5-3-2 was against teams mostly above us.

We've won once away from home with this system, drew one and lost 3. Those games were against teams in the bottom 6. It's not working, it's not a lazy trope. Not kept a clean sheet and conceded 11 goals.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

We've won once away from home with this system, drew one and lost 3. Those games were against teams in the bottom 6. It's not working, it's not a lazy trope. Not kept a clean sheet and conceded 11 goals.

It is more to do more with tactics than a formation. Dropping Sakamoto for Binks does not seem like a change that would change our fortunes. It was also a different mix of players.

It’s a clear trend when we play the bottom teams away from home. They hit us on the counter attack because we leave our lines too exposed.

It didn’t help that Haji missed 2 big opportunities for us.

 

[Sky Blue Goblin]

Shouldn’t just change for the stake of it but Luton as they did today against Bristol will expect us to have more of the ball and will set up to counter us.

One of the few teams who will need a win at all costs if we sit in they will have to leave their block. If you want to nullify a counter attack team. Dont let them counterattack, look at us in the playoffs season and our loss record when above 50% possession.

If we don’t expect our high line and lack of physicality to a be a dream for them

 

[Hincha]

Earlier this season when Luton played Sheff U at home - Sheff U started with a back 4 and Luton were absolutely hammering them but couldn’t score

At HT Wilder changed it and matched their formation (3-5-2) and they dominated the second half and won the game

Frank needs to adapt similarly

 

[fernandopartridge]

It is more to do more with tactics than a formation. Dropping Sakamoto for Binks does not seem like a change that would change our fortunes. It was also a different mix of players.

It’s a clear trend when we play the bottom teams away from home. They hit us on the counter attack because we leave our lines too exposed.

It didn’t help that Haji missed 2 big opportunities for us.

It was exactly the same against Sheffield United.. Even Hull which was a decent performance we could easily have conceded more from losing possession and being wide open.

 

[clint van damme]

It was exactly the same against Sheffield United.. Even Hull which was a decent performance we could easily have conceded more from losing possession and being wide open.

Sheff Utd showed everyone else the blueprint for how to play against us.
Not everyone has their quality to execute it but teams definitely see it as the way to go.

Today was the perfect example.

We've had alot of success with 4 3 3 but there are times to ditch it, especially away from home, starting Saturday

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

It was exactly the same against Sheffield United.. Even Hull which was a decent performance we could easily have conceded more from losing possession and being wide open.

Which suggests it’s more tactical than formation, is it not?

We left our lines pretty exposed when we played 5-3-2 and there were games we could’ve easily conceded first. Norwich, Sheff Wednesday, Blackburn and even Swansea to name a few.

It’s a tactical flaw that’s been exploited by the bottom 6 who hit us on the counter.

Looking at 5-3-2, playing Binks > Sakamoto removes a top goal contributor for a defender. Our WBs have next to no assists or goals and with Torp injured, you’ve got less goals and assists playing Grimes and Sheaf/Allen.

There’s issues with how we approach away games as a whole, it just isn’t formation imo.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Sheff Utd showed everyone else the blueprint for how to play against us.
Not everyone has their quality to execute it but teams definitely see it as the way to go.

Today was the perfect example.

We've had alot of success with 4 3 3 but there are times to ditch it, especially away from home, starting Saturday

We haven’t figured out how to get results from losing positions.

When we score first, it’s a high probability we’ll win. If we concede first, it’s more or less guaranteed we won’t win the game, we’ve only beat Hull (H) from a losing position this season since Lampard has come in.

 

[blunted]

We have started well possession wise at Portsmouth Derby and Plymouth then got caught on the counter or at set pieces by teams that want a physical battle. Luton will be identical (it is how they play).
We were unlucky at Hull and should have won.
Luton like Plymouth are going to bombard us with high balls especially at set pieces. Think that is why Bidders played ahead of the in-form JDS today.
Feel if we play the same at Luton we will lose and I don't think it is an attitude problem. We are a team that likes to play football and we should not change from that philosophy in the long-term. However. with the injuries we have, I feel a back 5 away may be the only way we can compete away from home if we have more than one game from here onwards.
If we did make Wembley, that is a different ball game and you go for it.