50 +1 (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Greggs
- Start date
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
Was just expressing my opinion when saying " not going to happen". I could of course be wrong but so far i have seen nothing that persuades me it is remotely likely. But as you say there is always a possibility however remote. I certainly do not profess any great knowledge of the German set up, German company Law, German tax Law or German League rules
Any change to the English set up is going to take years to put in to place. Even just simple rule changes (- look how long it took to put the flawed FFP rules in place). Again my opinion but i think a reasonable one to most people.
Looking at a some of the clubs named
Dortmund basically 60% of its shares are publicly quoted on the German stock market. I assume that is how they meet the 50+1 requirement. They are the only German club quoted on the German stock market i believe
Bayern have 75% of its shares that can be privately traded. The balance are owned by by a small group of investors including Alliance & Audi (8.33% each i think) Audi purchased its shares for 90m and that largely paid for the stadium i think. But Bayern seem to be a huge club in German league and over shadow most other clubs there
Millwall was mentioned. They are quoted on the LSE so their shares are traded and the club has to meet LSE rules. You could argue that spreads the ownership but does it spread it to the Millwall fans?
The shares in all those cases it seems to me have been issued/purchased at value. Which is one of the points i was making - it isnt as simple as just giving fans voting shares.
I think i agreed previously that decisions of name, crest, colours - those type of things should have a fan veto and i can see that being done. Could be done through FA & EFL regulations
The Chelsea situation is interesting and novel. But it still allows the club to move and retain name if 75% (special resolution under companies act) of the members of Chelsea Pitch Owners PLC agree to it. The only time Chelsea FC tried this the vote failed because it got 61%. Had it passed then the ground could have changed and the club still retain its name, Chelsea FC would have bought the freehold again and CPO repaid the loan from Chelsea FC. Of course Chelsea FC could just update the name and move anyway (not good fans PR assuming they did nothing to mitigate that )That would have left CPO with a ground where only football could be played with no team to play there - and bills and £8.5m loan to repay. So it is not a cast iron guarantee but it is some protection
I do not see how under company law you can restrict the ability to extract dividends from retained profits. You would have to apply it to all companies. You could change League rules i suppose but i suspect any breach would be met with a fine or similar from FA etc. But is it just dividends that is the problem? Our own case shows interest accruing at between 11% and 15% is that so different to dividends in a general sense?
I wonder if the events had happened at another but lower league club whether it would have got so much coverage. It was only that it was poor old Man United that it was news worthy. Not sure i would want a criminal record myself because i was frustrated about being second in the top division. (yes i know it isnt just about that - am being flippant).
I suspect the real thing that broke the ESL was the governing bodies reaction and the decision by the other clubs to cut the 6 adrift - all about the money, but thats modern football
All the focus seems to be on the bigger clubs all of a sudden but a lot of clubs at risk are in the lower divisions. I cant help but have a nagging feeling that some of the changes suggested or the time it takes to make the changes increases their risk. Could there be a new English model, possibly, should there be a proper discussion with commitment to change certainly. All i have really done is try to list the pitfalls that mean it is going to take a lot of time and tremendous commitment/effort to bring about in my opinion. Will the majority of fans focus on this, especially if their club is doing well........?
The trouble is English football has arrogantly sleep walked in to a real crisis financially, culturally and emotionally and it isnt going to be quick or easy to fix.
funny old game - even football finance
Any change to the English set up is going to take years to put in to place. Even just simple rule changes (- look how long it took to put the flawed FFP rules in place). Again my opinion but i think a reasonable one to most people.
Looking at a some of the clubs named
Dortmund basically 60% of its shares are publicly quoted on the German stock market. I assume that is how they meet the 50+1 requirement. They are the only German club quoted on the German stock market i believe
Bayern have 75% of its shares that can be privately traded. The balance are owned by by a small group of investors including Alliance & Audi (8.33% each i think) Audi purchased its shares for 90m and that largely paid for the stadium i think. But Bayern seem to be a huge club in German league and over shadow most other clubs there
Millwall was mentioned. They are quoted on the LSE so their shares are traded and the club has to meet LSE rules. You could argue that spreads the ownership but does it spread it to the Millwall fans?
The shares in all those cases it seems to me have been issued/purchased at value. Which is one of the points i was making - it isnt as simple as just giving fans voting shares.
I think i agreed previously that decisions of name, crest, colours - those type of things should have a fan veto and i can see that being done. Could be done through FA & EFL regulations
The Chelsea situation is interesting and novel. But it still allows the club to move and retain name if 75% (special resolution under companies act) of the members of Chelsea Pitch Owners PLC agree to it. The only time Chelsea FC tried this the vote failed because it got 61%. Had it passed then the ground could have changed and the club still retain its name, Chelsea FC would have bought the freehold again and CPO repaid the loan from Chelsea FC. Of course Chelsea FC could just update the name and move anyway (not good fans PR assuming they did nothing to mitigate that )That would have left CPO with a ground where only football could be played with no team to play there - and bills and £8.5m loan to repay. So it is not a cast iron guarantee but it is some protection
I do not see how under company law you can restrict the ability to extract dividends from retained profits. You would have to apply it to all companies. You could change League rules i suppose but i suspect any breach would be met with a fine or similar from FA etc. But is it just dividends that is the problem? Our own case shows interest accruing at between 11% and 15% is that so different to dividends in a general sense?
I wonder if the events had happened at another but lower league club whether it would have got so much coverage. It was only that it was poor old Man United that it was news worthy. Not sure i would want a criminal record myself because i was frustrated about being second in the top division. (yes i know it isnt just about that - am being flippant).
I suspect the real thing that broke the ESL was the governing bodies reaction and the decision by the other clubs to cut the 6 adrift - all about the money, but thats modern football
All the focus seems to be on the bigger clubs all of a sudden but a lot of clubs at risk are in the lower divisions. I cant help but have a nagging feeling that some of the changes suggested or the time it takes to make the changes increases their risk. Could there be a new English model, possibly, should there be a proper discussion with commitment to change certainly. All i have really done is try to list the pitfalls that mean it is going to take a lot of time and tremendous commitment/effort to bring about in my opinion. Will the majority of fans focus on this, especially if their club is doing well........?
The trouble is English football has arrogantly sleep walked in to a real crisis financially, culturally and emotionally and it isnt going to be quick or easy to fix.
funny old game - even football finance
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