Admin: ACL v SISU, where it might be heading... (1 Viewer)

[duffer]

I think ACL's recent offer to let CCFC Ltd play free at the Ricoh whilst in Administration, and TF's absolute insistence that the only way forward for the club is for CFFC Ltd to exit Admin as quickly as possible, gives a clue as to where all this is going.

Fisher and SISU will clearly only want to exit Administration quickly if they are the 'new' owners of CCFC Ltd.

Conversely, ACL will not want Administration to end if it is with SISU at the helm.

If SISU win the bid, I think ACL will launch a court battle to try to overturn the decision and hence keep the club tied in administration until that court process is complete.

If any bidder other than SISU wins, then I think SISU will take exactly the same steps.

So whatever happens this ends in court, but what ACL have done is to stop the administrator (or more likely SISU) moving us away from the Ricoh in the interim.

I'd be surprised if the FL let us groundshare whilst all of this is being fought out, and it gives a bit of breathing space for the courts to really dig through what's been going on at the club with regard to CCFC Ltd.

Just my opinion, as ever. Let the beatings commence.

 

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[Matty_CCFC]

duffer
You have it the nail directly on the head.

I agree with your thoughts 100%

 

[wingy]

I go along with most of this apart from SISU wishing the Administration to be drawn out .He Stated during one of the fans forums It wouldn't be death by a thousand cuts but 3 or 4, if as he says we should take him a t his word. Mr Linnel also likes to portray this warning .

 

[@richh87]

I agree too. Administrator's ruling won't be final; this will be dragged through court.

 

[Danceswithhorses]

I think ACL's recent offer to let CCFC Ltd play free at the Ricoh whilst in Administration, and TF's absolute insistence that the only way forward for the club is for CFFC Ltd to exit Admin as quickly as possible, gives a clue as to where all this is going.

Fisher and SISU will clearly only want to exit Administration quickly if they are the 'new' owners of CCFC Ltd.

Conversely, ACL will not want Administration to end if it is with SISU at the helm.

If SISU win the bid, I think ACL will launch a court battle to try to overturn the decision and hence keep the club tied in administration until that court process is complete.

If any bidder other than SISU wins, then I think SISU will take exactly the same steps.

So whatever happens this ends in court, but what ACL have done is to stop the administrator (or more likely SISU) moving us away from the Ricoh in the interim.

I'd be surprised if the FL let us groundshare whilst all of this is being fought out, and it gives a bit of breathing space for the courts to really dig through what's been going on at the club with regard to CCFC Ltd.

Just my opinion, as ever. Let the beatings commence.

I'm guessing SISU really won't want to take this to court, as some TRUTH may emerge from their web of lies....and we all must know by now about Joy's reputation in court lol !
Some have said ACL are equally untrustworthy.
Well i guess it will all come out in the wash.

 

[duffer]

I go along with most of this apart from SISU wishing the Administration to be drawn out .He Stated during one of the fans forums It wouldn't be death by a thousand cuts but 3 or 4, if as he says we should take him a t his word. Mr Linnel also likes to portray this warning .

Absolutely wingy, although I think if SISU lose the bidding process then they'll be more than prepared to drag administration out and walk it through the courts.

I suppose that figures. If you were (say) £30m in the hole, then another few hundred thousand on court costs might be tempting. There's rarely a sure thing when it comes to court cases, which is why there are so many pre-trial settlements. Even if your case is thin it might still be worth a punt.

Suspect this will run a while yet...

 

[oldskyblue58]

Comes down to who has the deeper pockets in the end

 

[Sub]

Comes down to who has the deeper pockets in the end

so how do you see things going then OSB how do you think things will play out >?

 

[cloughie]

Comes down to who has the deeper pockets in the end

In ACLs case it depends on the pockets ACL will be using. Their own or Haskels

 

[duffer]

Comes down to who has the deeper pockets in the end

I'd usually agree, but I think in this case both sides have access to sufficient funds and have enough to lose that they'll exhaust all legal avenues before giving up.

I suspect, and again this is just my opinion, that the only way to short-circuit all this would be an offer to SISU to buy them out of the club completely.

They'd obviously have to take a loss, but I reckon £10m in cash might do it.

I'd be willing to negotiate the deal for just 5% - can't say fairer than that.

 

[Ripbuster]

Sisu have a hole in their lucky bag.:guitar2:

 

[skybluegaz2]

You'd have to jump over me first - I'd do it for 4% !! LOL

However, I think knowing SISU they'd want to make a profit - so they'd want at least £80m !!

Sure Haskell/ACL/even Byng still have cunniing plans though. :claping hands:

 

[Samo]

I think ACL's recent offer to let CCFC Ltd play free at the Ricoh whilst in Administration, and TF's absolute insistence that the only way forward for the club is for CFFC Ltd to exit Admin as quickly as possible, gives a clue as to where all this is going.

Fisher and SISU will clearly only want to exit Administration quickly if they are the 'new' owners of CCFC Ltd.

Conversely, ACL will not want Administration to end if it is with SISU at the helm.

If SISU win the bid, I think ACL will launch a court battle to try to overturn the decision and hence keep the club tied in administration until that court process is complete.

If any bidder other than SISU wins, then I think SISU will take exactly the same steps.

So whatever happens this ends in court, but what ACL have done is to stop the administrator (or more likely SISU) moving us away from the Ricoh in the interim.

I'd be surprised if the FL let us groundshare whilst all of this is being fought out, and it gives a bit of breathing space for the courts to really dig through what's been going on at the club with regard to CCFC Ltd.

Just my opinion, as ever. Let the beatings commence.

Yes, I like you're thinking Duffer. Doesn't need to end in court though. The power balance will shift after the winning bidder is announced, could be sorted out of court. After all, they are all such reasonable people!

 

[Godiva]

If SISU win the bid, I think ACL will launch a court battle to try to overturn the decision and hence keep the club tied in administration until that court process is complete.

Hmmm - I am not a lawyer, but if sisu wins the bid in a way that pays ACL their outstanding £650k, then I am not sure if anyone can stop the exit from administration.

Sure the decision can be challenged, but on what ground can ACL challenge if they are repaid?
And why should any appeal prevent the exit?

 

[oldskyblue58]

I think everyone thinks that it will be creditors meeting today, end of bids tomorrow and new owners monday ...... i do not think it will be the case

I really would not be surprised if it rumbled on for a couple of months yet

PA will announce his preferred bidder next week they may have to negotiate with him, ARVO and CCFC H .......... it will then have to come back to be approved by FL (including Fit and Proper) .......... it will then have to be approved by the creditors and that may not be as straight forward as it seems

that is assuming there are no court actions

long way to go yet i think

 

[Godiva]

PA will announce his preferred bidder next week they may have to negotiate with him, ARVO and CCFC H ..........

That line reads to me you think the preferred bidder will not be sisu. Who then is your guess?

 

[Paxman II]

Why will it go to court if SISU are the preferred bidder? Should they regain control then that suggest others have bid and failed. Why would any of those 'others' wish to challenge that in court? Can't see Haskell spending outrageously on a fantasy of Joe Elliott's battling with SISU in court.

I said all along this would bite ACL/Council on the bum big time due to their refusal to accept the consensus that the football club (whoever owns it) needs the full revenue streams from the Ricoh to be sustainable. If not then what choice do they have? Go bust and leave giving another owner the same problems eventually or hang in and even (God forbid) they spend and build a stadium of their own?

If Haskell had money to burn he would have done a deal with SISU as it has become clear trying to gain the club through this back door approach of CCFC Ltd as opposed to CCFC (Holdings) Ltd is a farce in itself. So Haskell's commitment is limited in my book and only valid because of development opportunities. Probably another failed attempt by the Hoffman/Elliott former directors who keep letting supporters dream.

I can't see how the FL could hand back the 'golden share' to CCFC Ltd as the rightful 'owner' of the football club. SISU's claim looks strong to me.

I'm no SISU fan but they could have walked and are not and the council/ACL as this gets drawn out more and more seem much more the fools in all this and could have done so much more than they have.

 

[italiahorse]

Hmmm - I am not a lawyer, but if sisu wins the bid in a way that pays ACL their outstanding £650k, then I am not sure if anyone can stop the exit from administration.

Sure the decision can be challenged, but on what ground can ACL challenge if they are repaid?
And why should any appeal prevent the exit?

Didn't ACL and CCFC have a deal on the Ricoh Lease. That could be worth quite a bit.

In fact you would want some sort of agreement before the Ricoh was built and it would want CCFC to play there for many years. Pulling out would have penalties.

 

[oldskyblue58]

That line reads to me you think the preferred bidder will not be sisu. Who then is your guess?

no - it could be very short negotiations or quite protracted ones depending on who gets the nod

Think people think there is just one vote of the creditors ...... there isnt there is a vote today to approve the administrators plan or not ........ but even then it is not so straight forward. The vote is in two parts (1) to cover all creditors and after that (2) a vote by the unconnected creditors. It is like that to protect minority creditors. SISU or any other connected buyer may have to convince the unconnected creditors that them having the club is a good idea. After that there will be a final creditors meeting to approve the deal and discharge the administrator which will happen once the deal has been done and also approved by FL, I would expect that is a two tier vote too

Consequences of no deal approved could still be liquidation. So just yet people going off and saying it all done and dusted should hold fire for a while

Think we need to sit tight and see what happens for next week or so

 

[Cityfan1]

Assuming Italia is right, and also making the assumption that this contract was anywhere near the term of the lease that ACL agreed with CCC, then it would add up to a lot more than the £650k quoted by Godiva.

 

[grego_gee]

I'd usually agree, but I think in this case both sides have access to sufficient funds and have enough to lose that they'll exhaust all legal avenues before giving up.

I suspect, and again this is just my opinion, that the only way to short-circuit all this would be an offer to SISU to buy them out of the club completely.

They'd obviously have to take a loss, but I reckon £10m in cash might do it.

I'd be willing to negotiate the deal for just 5% - can't say fairer than that.

An I bet you worked out how much that would be already!

You dog you!

imp:

 

[Godiva]

Didn't ACL and CCFC have a deal on the Ricoh Lease. That could be worth quite a bit.

In fact you would want some sort of agreement before the Ricoh was built and it would want CCFC to play there for many years. Pulling out would have penalties.

I've asking questions about the lease, but nobody seems to either care or know.

I wonder if paying all the creditors and then move for a voluntary liquidation is a way to break the lease.

 

[simple_simon]

As always OSB58 puts it in a way that even I can understand.

Thank you

 

[Godiva]

no - it could be very short negotiations or quite protracted ones depending on who gets the nod

Think people think there is just one vote of the creditors ...... there isnt there is a vote today to approve the administrators plan or not ........ but even then it is not so straight forward. The vote is in two parts (1) to cover all creditors and after that (2) a vote by the unconnected creditors. It is like that to protect minority creditors. SISU or any other connected buyer may have to convince the unconnected creditors that them having the club is a good idea. After that there will be a final creditors meeting to approve the deal and discharge the administrator which will happen once the deal has been done and also approved by FL, I would expect that is a two tier vote too

Consequences of no deal approved could still be liquidation. So just yet people going off and saying it all done and dusted should hold fire for a while

Think we need to sit tight and see what happens for next week or so

To demonstrate (again) my total ignorance ... what exactly are unconnected creditors, who are they in this case and what are their legal rights? Can they for instance veto the administrators decision?

 

[oldskyblue58]

connected creditors to CCFC Ltd would be any creditor that is part of the SISU empire including ARVO............. the rest are unconnected

 

[grego_gee]

Hmmm - I am not a lawyer, but if sisu wins the bid in a way that pays ACL their outstanding £650k, then I am not sure if anyone can stop the exit from administration.

Sure the decision can be challenged, but on what ground can ACL challenge if they are repaid?
And why should any appeal prevent the exit?

I think you're right here God,
And I think we have previously heard Mr Fisher let it drop that ACL would be "paid in full".
If they are I don't see how they could appeal either.
There was a chance that Haskell or Byng could be prepared to pay a significant sum that might tempt SISU to cut and run. But with Byngs laptop on the blink and Hakell with jet fuel to buy it looks like we are down to SISU.
What I am unsure about in that scenario is, if CCFC Ltd left administration by paying all the debt in full, and CCFC Ltd continued to exist, handed back to SISU, would the ACL lease have been broken or not?

imp:

 

[Godiva]

I think you're right here God,

No need to be so formal ... Godiva will do.

 

[duffer]

An I bet you worked out how much that would be already!

You dog you!

imp:

Not only have I worked it out, but the wife's already spent it.

 

[RogerH]

The more I think about this move by ACL, the more I think it is very clever and well timed.

The decision as to where we play next season is down to Appleton, as the FL have confirmed the GS is in Ltd.

As OSB has said, the administration process is not likely to be concluded within the next few days, as a result of that, how long before the FL are demanding a commitment from Appleton as to where we will play. When that happens, surely the only decision he can take is the Ricoh. Although the FL have said that fixtures can be changed, I don't think they will be be prepared to alter the fixture list after the season has started.

I might be wrong, but I guess the FL will demand a season long commitment to the chosen venue. Surely, they would not condone playing x games at the Ricoh and then move to Walsall or wherever ?

If the above is correct, it seems that SISU need the Club to come out of Admin asap, if not where does it leave their plan to move away etc. Having given a season long commitment to play at the Ricoh, how could Appleton then award Ltd to SISU when the offer to play at the Ricoh does not seem to apply to them?

Any thoughts ?

 

[duffer]

I've asking questions about the lease, but nobody seems to either care or know.

I wonder if paying all the creditors and then move for a voluntary liquidation is a way to break the lease.

It's a really, really good question.

I think ACL might be able to challenge this route even if paid the £650k in full, because there's clearly a contract for another 40-odd years at £1.2m and the Administrator has the option via other bids to maintain CCFC Ltd as a going concern (which would mean a better chance of the lease being fulfilled, presumably).

But truthfully, I don't know.

That 'free rent' move by ACL looks to me like positioning for a long battle though.

 

[oldskyblue58]

Well as TF said this morning on CWR that PA was running the club i guess it is up to PA to sort it all out............. although i could have sworn it was TF at the forums etc talking about CCFC and the direction we are taking.

 

[Stafford_SkBlue]

Appleton is working to obtain the best deal for the creditors not where we play next season is really immaterial to him. He may help negotiations later or mediate!!

If SISU are not successful the wining bidder has nothing but the ability to field a team in the football league. They would then have to negotiate with SISU to buy the actual club maybe with Appleton help. Not sure how this scenario is of much good to the supporters and will end with more points deduction and becoming another Portsmouth.

 

[oldskyblue58]

If you bought CCFC LTd and that is seen to be the club by the FL etc, had a deal to play the Ricoh ...................what is it that CCFC H owns that you would need and that would be hard to replace other than the trademark/badge

for example Monday night TF made a big thing about the fact that players were easy to come by

just curious what people think

 

[wingy]

At what point in all this if they don't win this bid ,do the terminate us??

This is an often veiled threat we hear.

 

[Bluegloucester]

At what point in all this if they don't win this bid ,do the terminate us??

This is an often veiled threat we hear.

If you mean liquidate, they can't while CCFC Ltd is in administration.