administrator's report (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter tisza
- Start date
rupert_bear
Well-Known Member
He reports to court on Thursday, can this court hearing be attended by press and the general public ? if so the details should be revealed.
The Penguin
Well-Known Member
I expect his court report will consist largely of the words, "time", "need", "I" and "more", and not necessarily in that order.
Waldorf
New Member
I dare say they are - on a board outside the court, probably.
torchomatic
Well-Known Member
If he starts off with the word "Humans" then we're in trouble.
The report will contain a detailed list of what is owed to the creditors. It will contain a full financial statement and a list of possible assets.
It could also contain a statement if the administrator has found any illegal dealings or transfer of assest.
I would expect a copy of the report has already been sent to the creditors and the company owners. Amazing - if this is true - that no bits or pieces have leaked yet.
It could also contain a statement if the administrator has found any illegal dealings or transfer of assest.
I would expect a copy of the report has already been sent to the creditors and the company owners. Amazing - if this is true - that no bits or pieces have leaked yet.
singers_pore
Well-Known Member
I don't think it will tell us much that we don't already know. CCFC have huge liabilities most of which are owed to SISU who have a fixed and floating charge over everything such that there is no prospect of a payment to any other creditors, most notably ACL. SISU will then "repurchase" the club simply by writing off some of the secured loans which won't cost them a penny. 
Haven't we been over this before?
Management fee's seem to be a group internal move-around of assets (cash).
The extraordinaire high interest paid in 2011 was likely due to the mortgage of Ryton and the factoring of season tickets.
Nobody has so far been able to detect any money going from the ccfc group to sisu.
The best guesstimate on how much money sisu have put into the ccfc group is approximately £31m.
(up and till the 2011 accounts).
I don't think it will tell us much that we don't already know. CCFC have huge liabilities most of which are owed to SISU who have a fixed and floating charge over everything such that there is no prospect of a payment to any other creditors, most notably ACL. SISU will then "repurchase" the club simply by writing off some of the secured loans which won't cost them a penny.
Really?
Tomorrow I will head down to my bank and ask them to write off their loans to me. It won't cost them a penny!
singers_pore
Well-Known Member
I think you're (deliberately?) missing the point. The money is owed to SISU who are also the sole shareholders. Therefore writing off their own loan will not cost them anything. Anyway I will accept your apologies after it happens.
I think you are missing another point.
Sisu does not own the funds.
No money is owed to sisu.
There are several funds (5?) who have loans and shares in the group.
Arvo is only one fund.
SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
And I'm guessing that those loans will be a tax loss in whatever country offers the friendliest return. So a.n.other taxpayer (hopefully) foots the ultimate bill, because somebody somewhere other than ACL has to pay.
All of the management fees are owed to SISU and this appears to be a sizeable chunk of the debt.
You know this for a fact? Then please PM osb and/or Skybluesquirrel because it must have slipped under their radar.
I don't think it has slipped under their radar.
Here is what skybluesquirrel writes on his blog:
He is not 100% certain, but his analysis lead him to believe it's an internal charge. So not effecting the cashflow or loan balance of the whole group.
BurbageSkyBlues
New Member
Wrestling with a pig in mud.....
I owe myself some money.
Let me borrow it from one of my other bank accounts, so that I can pay it to myself.
Then I'll give it back to myself and return to the account that I borrowed it from!
Cost to me?
I owe myself some money.
Let me borrow it from one of my other bank accounts, so that I can pay it to myself.
Then I'll give it back to myself and return to the account that I borrowed it from!
Cost to me?
Nonleagueherewecome
Well-Known Member
Are most of your debts to yourself as well? :thinking about:
tisza
Well-Known Member
in terms of management fees and where they end up it remains pretty unclear as there don't seem to be any accounts for some of the other companies in the "group".
Hiding behind certain accountancy rules seems to mean there doesn't have to be full disclosure of how funds are moved betweeen the various companies.
Hiding behind certain accountancy rules seems to mean there doesn't have to be full disclosure of how funds are moved betweeen the various companies.
J
Jack Griffin
Guest
The only thing that is clear is that SISU hide behind a complex group structure and keep everything secret.
Any analysis is hampered by the smoke & mirrors.
No one is going to pay anything like £60M, £10M maybe.
Any analysis is hampered by the smoke & mirrors.
No one is going to pay anything like £60M, £10M maybe.
rupert_bear
Well-Known Member
What value would ccfc ltd have if anybody want to buy it because that is where the Golden Share is but fail to get through the Football League fit and proper test and would failure to get FL sanction influence who the administrator allows to buy because he has to be sure the business is a going concern
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You utterly spin these charges loaded against the club as to be almost inconsequential. Are they or are they not increasing debt against the football club, the answer I believe is yes if you wished to buy it. You seem to suggest that it is acceptable for a simple sports club to be embroiled in a secretive tiered layer of holding companies, some offshore and for almost no one outside of SISU to really know exactly how this is managed and what if any value the club has. Why do you see this as okay. The debt is there, the debt is not there, the share is there, the share is not there. Its not ethical or clever its immoral and disgusting. Supporters who genuinely contribute would like transparency, they'd like to know that their cash is making a difference.
Broken Hearted Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
It is making a difference,you dont think Timmy is working for nothing do you? Then again he probably is because did'nt he say that the future of the club is the most important thing?
As I said in the beginning: I am not trying to turn attention away from the issues. But you (and many more) and I see many things differently, and thank God for that. It creates ground for discussion and exchange of views. And it keeps us focused on what is really going on.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Check the clubs accounts.
Even the most anti-Sisu person has to accept we've been making losses for some time before Sisu got here and no reason to think that changed.
It's not £60m (more like £30m) but they're definitely out of pocket.
If you haven't seen this blog yet, it makes very good reading:
http://aprisonofmeasuredtime.wordpress.com/2013/05/09/think-ill-buy-me-a-football-team/
and
http://aprisonofmeasuredtime.wordpr...try-city-and-sisu-capital-60-million-in-debt/
Sub
Well-Known Member
Godiva quote
I know you think we are being screwed, but as long as the owners are pouring more money into the club than they take out, it is actually them being screwed.
Please provide the evidence that they have recently been ( if at all ) pouring money into the club
if that is the case (i am no smart enough to work out accounts!!) why do they say its north of 60 million we are in debt ? This is the thing that i do not get and annoys the hell out of me, yes we are in debt but they seem to have plucked a figure out of the air and said i want that much!! we kept being told we are debt free then suddenly we are 60 million in the red:thinking about::thinking about: and you wonder why people think they are not telling the truth. they have made a rod for their own back here with the fans!
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if that is the case (i am no smart enough to work out accounts!!) why do they say its north of 60 million we are in debt ? This is the thing that i do not get and annoys the hell out of me, yes we are in debt but they seem to have plucked a figure out of the air and said i want that much!! we kept being told we are debt free then suddenly we are 60 million in the red:thinking about::thinking about: and you wonder why people think they are not telling the truth. they have made a rod for their own back here with the fans!
According to the forums financial wizards it seems that when sisu took over all external debts were cleared - paid out at a discount. Yet, it seems the original amount has been kept in the balance sheets.
The reason (tactics) behind this is (partly) the same reason why the investor money was injected as loans - as opposed to equity. It effectively blocks for a hostile take over. It makes it extremely difficult for Hoffman to get back for a second round.
So it's not illegal or unethical - it's a way to protect their investment.
Sub
Well-Known Member
thats fair enough godiva
but do you see why there is so much distrust for our owners when 90% of the fans can not or do not understand what the hell they are doing on the money side of things? Thats why most of the fans think they are up to no good and are taking money out of the club and are very underhanded, like i said before they have created a situation where if they came out and told the truth nobody would believe them anyway, i think we have gone past the point of no return with trust between the owners and fans it is not repairable anymore.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
thats fair enough godiva
This is the only reason I'd want Sisu gone: they've lost too much trust.
But then I'm not so sure that a bunch of ill informed conspiracy theorists should be able to force an owner out of the club.
Sounds harsh but its not SISUs fault fans don't understand finance. Should they only do things your average Cov fan understands?
It's an interesting question. And I'm not sure which side I come down on.
thats fair enough godiva
I completely agree! Their inabillity - or more likely their unwillingness - to be open and transparant is upsetting the fans and earn them nothing but mistrust.
If I should hazard a guess (it is NOT an attempt to justify their behaviour!) I would say that their backgrond in banking, finances, mergers etc have made them 'secretive' by default. In their normal line of business giving away information can be damaging.
There have been small signs of them trying to communicate their vision and future plans, but evertime they fail. First time was when Ranson/Hoffman and Elliott had left and the new board at a public meeting tried to communicate. Then Len Brody tried his novel ideas. And finally last Summer it was Fisher and Waggott. But after Ransons last year we the fans stopped listening and the general consensus seem to be that nothing they say is true.
Fisher said last Summer that a large part of the debts had been cleared. Yet now it clearly seems that hasn't happened. I think it was their intention to restructure the debts and convert some of it to equity, but it looks like it was part of a greater plan that included taking over ACL (half or in full). It could also seem that this key element was obstructed when ACL chairman became director in Yorkshire Bank. Then they had to wait with the restructuring as it would leave them vulnerable to any takeover attempts. It certainly won't happen before the administration process is over.
So did Fisher lie last Summer? I don't think so. But this was something he should never have said before it was actually implemented/executed. Transparancy is not always the best route.