Albany Meeting ? (2 Viewers)

chiefdave · Jan 29, 2019

At the end of the day I think people are massively over estimating how many people would actually turn up to watch a reformed CCFC in non-league. We struggle to get people to turn up for cup games at the Ricoh yet there seems to be this idea that the majority will flip over to a new club.

IMO at best you'd get a couple of games with decent crowds and it would drop off quickly. The idea that in a couple of years we'll be back at the same level seems very optimistic to me.

Sky Blue Harry H · Jan 29, 2019

I may be naïve, but surely the pressure is on SISU (without fans doing anything). If they let us go belly up, surely they would have to write off the squillions (don't have the exact figure!) on their balance sheet against CCFC, and presumably their shareholders would be peeved (coupled with negative publicity). I can't see what their strategy is (except hoping Wasps will blink first). I will be seriously p*ssed off with our owners if they cause our football club take a points hit again, regardless of whether a deal is done or not.

chiefdave · Jan 29, 2019

Sky Blue Harry H said:
I may be naïve, but surely the pressure is on SISU (without fans doing anything). If they let us go belly up, surely they would have to write off the squillions (don't have the exact figure!) on their balance sheet against CCFC, and presumably their shareholders would be peeved (coupled with negative publicity). I can't see what their strategy is (except hoping Wasps will blink first). I will be seriously p*ssed off with our owners if they cause our football club take a points hit again, regardless of whether a deal is done or not.

Alternatively if by some miracle they end up winning a court case and then claim for compensation what has the bigger return for them? We had to play in Northampton for a year or the club no longer exists?

Deleted member 5849 · Jan 29, 2019

CJ_covblaze said:
We did say this last night whenever it was brought up.

Fair enough, can ask no more!

Managing 140 people orderly would be a challenge. Shame none of the protagonists could be bothered to turn up. May have been easier to put a structure in place if they had.

mark82 · Jan 29, 2019

Nick said:
People keep saying it's "what the fans think" but they dont answer when I ask what would happen if 10,000 city fans adopted cov sphinx or cov united and decide they are the new CCFC.

If 2 clubs are formed, how do they decide which is CCFC?

Only individuals can decide for themselves what they believe. The FA will only recognise one as a continuation by giving that club a place in the football pyramid at the appropriate level (conference or conference north probably). If the FA recognise any existing club as a continuation like Sphinx or United, I'm not sure it's something I could get onboard with as they will never be CCFC. If it's a reformation with everything as close to CCFC as is possible I would support them, regardless of whether I liked whoever the board members were.

It's all a bit of a moot point at the moment anyway. CCFC still exist, and let's hope that doesn't ever change.

Sky Blue Harry H · Jan 29, 2019

chiefdave said:
At the end of the day I think people are massively over estimating how many people would actually turn up to watch a reformed CCFC in non-league. We struggle to get people to turn up for cup games at the Ricoh yet there seems to be this idea that the majority will flip over to a new club.

IMO at best you'd get a couple of games with decent crowds and it would drop off quickly. The idea that in a couple of years we'll be back at the same level seems very optimistic to me.

Don't want it to happen at all (but players change all the time. our stadium has changed, as has our name) If we were called CCFC (Mark 2) I'd still support us, as I like going to the footie and couldn't support anybody else (The 1200 Newport fans who went to Middlesboro didn't think they were watching a different club to the original - it's just part of their history) I stress - I don't want us to go under, though.

Captain Dart · Jan 29, 2019

clint van damme said:
Sounds like there were some positives from the meeting but I really don't understand why people are discussing a phoenix club while CCFC is still alive?

Bit like your relatives discussing your funeral arrangements when you been told you've got a serious illness but the doctors haven't actually said it's terminal.

A distraction from the real issue which is that Wasps and SISU are at war, a topic that has not been discussed at all on this thread.

Nick · Jan 29, 2019

mark82 said:
Only individuals can decide for themselves what they believe. The FA will only recognise one as a continuation by giving that club a place in the football pyramid at the appropriate level (conference or conference north probably). If the FA recognise any existing club as a continuation like Sphinx or United, I'm not sure it's something I could get onboard with as they will never be CCFC. If it's a reformation with everything as close to CCFC as is possible I would support them, regardless of whether I liked whoever the board members were.

It's all a bit of a moot point at the moment anyway. CCFC still exist, and let's hope that doesn't ever change.

People keep saying "fans will believe it". It's not about what they will believe, it is about fact.

Like I said, I can believe my car is a ferrari or that my dog is a cat. I can say how it's "my opinion" all I want but it isn't.

Nick · Jan 29, 2019

Captain Dart said:
A distraction from the real issue which is that Wasps and SISU are at war, a topic that has not been discussed at all on this thread.

Your whole purpose and account(s) is intended as a distraction. You haven't discussed a CCFC match at all on this forum, have you?

mark82 · Jan 29, 2019

chiefdave said:
At the end of the day I think people are massively over estimating how many people would actually turn up to watch a reformed CCFC in non-league. We struggle to get people to turn up for cup games at the Ricoh yet there seems to be this idea that the majority will flip over to a new club.

IMO at best you'd get a couple of games with decent crowds and it would drop off quickly. The idea that in a couple of years we'll be back at the same level seems very optimistic to me.

Possibly, but if I'd chosen my club because of the level of success they have it wouldn't have been CCFC! I couldn't say if I'd go until I saw what it looked like but level of play certainly wouldn't be the determining factor for me.

Deleted member 5849 · Jan 29, 2019

I get tired of this, as I do answer but, seemingly, my answers aren't acceptable. I could bang on about reading formation theory, and how certain strategies are used to position entities in a particular way. I could bang on about inter-textual strategies. I could bang on about authenticity as a social construct and a shared system of belief along with audience response, and the battle for status within fan cultures and subcultures but... that would be rather boring, and I have neither the time nor inclination to an unreceptive audience.

I can say that if Coventry Sphinx were considered to be the club that people saw as continuing the Coventry City legacy, then that would be it. It's highly unlikely that would happen however - may as well ask what would happen if pink was green. The evidence is there of previous clubs what happens, and how the fans consider *their* club to be *their* club. There's no reason as it stands why Coventry Sphinx couldn't become the dominant club in the city, anyway... but that's a whole different issue and digression.

Of course some fans would drop by the wayside at the point of oblivion, that's only natural. Ultimately, however, it's cultural appropriation, and that's nothing that SISU haven't (tried) to do already, anyway. Some would be passive but return at success, some would go completely, new fans would join and be told of the FA Cup win - it's nothing that doesn't happen now.

Also, what doesn't happen, is two clubs are formed. May as well ask what happens if twenty two are formed. For examples and evidence based about the battle for that cultural authenticity, then you can see how destructive the battle for Enfield is and was, when a rival club was formed when the present one still existed. Similar has happened at Northwich, but I don't know enough of that to say with any authority how that has panned out to date.

As mentioned, it's all a little irrelevant while CCFC exist. As also mentioned, it's only wise to have a contingency. As also mentioned, this was an aside so in the interests of focus I'll bow out, as I( just don't have the time to bash my head against a brick virtual wall.

GaryMabbuttsLeftKnee · Jan 29, 2019

mark82 said:
Possibly, but if I'd chosen my club because of the level of success they have it wouldn't have been CCFC! I couldn't say if I'd go until I saw what it looked like but level of play certainly wouldn't be the determining factor for me.

CCFC has a lot of fans from outside Coventry. One major issue I believe with the whole Pheonix club theory is that, to those of us outside of Coventry, there isn't the same level of affinity. For me personally, if it all ended and started again, it would make as much sense for me to support Stratford Town.

mark82 · Jan 29, 2019

Nick said:
People keep saying "fans will believe it". It's not about what they will believe, it is about fact.

Like I said, I can believe my car is a ferrari or that my dog is a cat. I can say how it's "my opinion" all I want but it isn't.

Ultimately, I watch football for entertainment. It's a game. I couldn't care less about what level the club are at. What would matter for me is it feeling right. If that doesn't feel right for someone else, fair enough. I'm not sure what you're looking for but if I was the only one there I wouldn't care as long as I enjoyed it. I really couldn't give a shit what anyone else wants to do. I think you can only really decide what feels right when you know full details anyway, if it's ever needed. It's all a bit pointless trying to decide what is right and wrong now without knowing full facts. My opinion is that it's highly unlikely to be needed anyway, but the Trust, if they are doing what they should be, should have a plan in place just in case (as CJ says, clubs in better situations than us have trusts with a contingency plan in case the worst happens).

Nick · Jan 29, 2019

Deleted member 5849 said:
I get tired of this, as I do answer but, seemingly, my answers aren't acceptable. I could bang on about reading formation theory, and how certain strategies are used to position entities in a particular way. I could bang on about inter-textual strategies. I could bang on about authenticity as a social construct and a shared system of belief along with audience response, and the battle for status within fan cultures and subcultures but... that would be rather boring, and I have neither the time nor inclination to an unreceptive audience.

I can say that if Coventry Sphinx were considered to be the club that people saw as continuing the Coventry City legacy, then that would be it. It's highly unlikely that would happen however - may as well ask what would happen if pink was green. The evidence is there of previous clubs what happens, and how the fans consider *their* club to be *their* club. There's no reason as it stands why Coventry Sphinx couldn't become the dominant club in the city, anyway... but that's a whole different issue and digression.

Of course some fans would drop by the wayside at the point of oblivion, that's only natural. Ultimately, however, it's cultural appropriation, and that's nothing that SISU haven't (tried) to do already, anyway. Some would be passive but return at success, some would go completely, new fans would join and be told of the FA Cup win - it's nothing that doesn't happen now.

Also, what doesn't happen, is two clubs are formed. May as well ask what happens if twenty two are formed. For examples and evidence based about the battle for that cultural authenticity, then you can see how destructive the battle for Enfield is and was, when a rival club was formed when the present one still existed. Similar has happened at Northwich, but I don't know enough of that to say with any authority how that has panned out to date.

As mentioned, it's all a little irrelevant while CCFC exist. As also mentioned, it's only wise to have a contingency. As also mentioned, this was an aside so in the interests of focus I'll bow out, as I( just don't have the time to bash my head against a brick virtual wall.

Surely based on the theory that it's what the fans say, if enough people said "pink was green" then it would have to be accepted as fact?

If we can get a few hundred people to come to the car dealers with me so I can trade in my estate car as a ferrari and all back me up then surely if there's 1 salesman and 200 people saying it's a Ferrari it must be a Ferrari as that's what people are saying?

Nick · Jan 29, 2019

mark82 said:
Ultimately, I watch football for entertainment. It's a game. I couldn't care less about what level the club are at. What would matter for me is it feeling right. If that doesn't feel right for someone else, fair enough. I'm not sure what you're looking for but if I was the only one there I wouldn't care as long as I enjoyed it. I really couldn't give a shit what anyone else wants to do. I think you can only really decide what feels right when you know full details anyway, if it's ever needed. It's all a bit pointless trying to decide what is right and wrong now without knowing full facts. My opinion is that it's highly unlikely to be needed anyway, but the Trust, if they are doing what they should be, should have a plan in place just in case (as CJ says, clubs in better situations than us have trusts with a contingency plan in case the worst happens).

Of course, CCFC fans will go and watch other teams play because they look football in general. I am just saying that it won't be CCFC if the club goes out of existence regardless of people saying it is. The same as my dog wont be a cat.

I cant watch any other team play and have the same emotion, even a World Cup Final if England got there.

Deleted member 5849 · Jan 29, 2019

Nick said:
Surely based on the theory that it's what the fans say, if enough people said "pink was green" then it would have to be accepted as fact?

If we can get a few hundred people to come to the car dealers with me so I can trade in my estate car as a ferrari and all back me up then surely if there's 1 salesman and 200 people saying it's a Ferrari it must be a Ferrari as that's what people are saying?

habitus, dear boy. habitus.

oldskyblue58 · Jan 29, 2019

Sky Blue Harry H said:
I may be naïve, but surely the pressure is on SISU (without fans doing anything). If they let us go belly up, surely they would have to write off the squillions (don't have the exact figure!) on their balance sheet against CCFC, and presumably their shareholders would be peeved (coupled with negative publicity). I can't see what their strategy is (except hoping Wasps will blink first). I will be seriously p*ssed off with our owners if they cause our football club take a points hit again, regardless of whether a deal is done or not.

Unless they have a way to utilise those losses against other gains/profits elsewhere in the investment portfolio to get a tax benefit for their investors?. Presently the capital losses would be the shares in Otium £65m plus £28m loans to SBS&L plus the ARVO loan approx £17m now inc interest. A lot of those losses are manufactured legally by use of group transfers and do not represent actual money put in, the interest is a calculated figure. Isn't a SISU speciality the use of losses?

ceetee · Jan 29, 2019

i have no problem with the Trust having contingency plans , as long as they represent the fan base and not just individuals.
But I am concerned that, if it became a perception that the fans don't care because they could start up another "SISU-free" club, that would take away any emotional pressure on Wasps and the Council

Nick · Jan 29, 2019

Deleted member 5849 said:
habitus, dear boy. habitus.

So can we crowd out the dealership to make them accept it's a Ferrari and they should give me £100k? I will share it.

I could put a costume on my dog and say it's a unicorn and if 1,000 people say it then we could make millions?

(I don't have a unicorn or a ferrari).

colin101 · Jan 29, 2019

Can I ask what happens about any sell on clause for Callum Wilson if SISU liquidated the club?

Nick · Jan 29, 2019

ceetee said:
i have no problem with the Trust having contingency plans , as long as they represent the fan base and not just individuals.
But I am concerned that, if it became a perception that the fans don't care because they could start up another "SISU-free" club, that would take away any emotional pressure on Wasps and the Council

What emotional pressure? They have said that the "new club" may well be able to play at the Ricoh.

Has it been discussed with Wasps or just guessing?

Why would the Trust upset Wasps if they were on a promise for a ground? There is no pressure on them or the council. I hope to be proven wrong and something is done towards them, so far it's "we sent them a letter" as well as going to the national media to say how great it was they moved here.

mark82 · Jan 29, 2019

GaryMabbuttsLeftKnee said:
CCFC has a lot of fans from outside Coventry. One major issue I believe with the whole Pheonix club theory is that, to those of us outside of Coventry, there isn't the same level of affinity. For me personally, if it all ended and started again, it would make as much sense for me to support Stratford Town.

I live in Barnsley and I would still support CCFC if they had to be reformed. Each to their own though, it's not for me to decide what feels right to someone else. It's not anything that anyone wants anyway (I hope!). I'd personally rather we were stuck with Sisu for the rest of eternity than have to go through liquidation and reform.

mark82 · Jan 29, 2019

Nick said:
What emotional pressure? They have said that the "new club" may well be able to play at the Ricoh.

Has it been discussed with Wasps or just guessing?

Why would the Trust upset Wasps if they were on a promise for a ground? There is no pressure on them or the council. I hope to be proven wrong and something is done towards them, so far it's "we sent them a letter" as well as going to the national media to say how great it was they moved here.

I think there is still pressure that can be applied. Just because you have a cntingency plan doesn't mean you want to use it. I imagine the contingency plan has been in place long before this dispute, it won't be something new. When the trust was first set up with supporters direct I imagine it's something they recommended was put in place at the time.

Nick · Jan 29, 2019

mark82 said:
I think there is still pressure that can be applied. Just because you have a cntingency plan doesn't mean you want to use it. I imagine the contingency plan has been in place long before this dispute, it won't be something new. When the trust was first set up with supporters direct I imagine it's something they recommended was put in place at the time.

I will be over the moon to be proven wrong but there won't be any actual pressure applied to Wasps or the Council. The same as there wasn't about the Higgs.

Let's not forget somebody from / involved with Supporter's Direct actively working with the Council's PR company about a "Media War" and "Doorstepping".

Deleted member 5849 · Jan 29, 2019

Nick said:
So can we crowd out the dealership to make them accept it's a Ferrari and they should give me £100k? I will share it.

I could put a costume on my dog and say it's a unicorn and if 1,000 people say it then we could make millions?

(I don't have a unicorn or a ferrari).

No. That's the point.

Nick · Jan 29, 2019

Deleted member 5849 said:
No. That's the point.

So why is it different if enough people say that a football club that isn't CCFC is CCFC?

I can understand if people said "I want my football fix, I am going to go up and watch Sphinx and see it as that". It's the treating it as CCFC if enough people want it that isn't right.

Sky Blue Pete · Jan 29, 2019

There is one simple aim

To agree a medium term deal to play at Ricoh

No point discussing anything else at this time. How?

Pressure on who makes the decisions about legal action
Pressure on who makes the decisions on allowing Ccfc to play at Ricoh

What else can we impact?

So it’s tactics as to how we can pressurise the 2 parties and a plan would be good.

also when it’s put that simply we and the club have the same aim don’t we?

Deleted member 5849 · Jan 29, 2019

Nick said:
So why is it different if enough people say that a football club that isn't CCFC is CCFC?

But it is.

Due to structuring and structured principles, cultural appropriation, the experienced authenticity, the application of a mythic heritage, the attaining of consecrated status by some taste formers within the fan subculture... etc etc.

Nick · Jan 29, 2019

Sky Blue Pete said:
There is one simple aim

To agree a medium term deal to play at Ricoh

No point discussing anything else at this time. How?

Pressure on who makes the decisions about legal action
Pressure on who makes the decisions on allowing Ccfc to play at Ricoh

What else can we impact?

So it’s tactics as to how we can pressurise the 2 parties and a plan would be good.

also when it’s put that simply we and the club have the same aim don’t we?

Said that a few pages back.

The outcome will be some media exposure or protests demanding the legals be dropped which is all well and good if it wasn't letting the others off scottfree.

Nick · Jan 29, 2019

Deleted member 5849 said:
But it is.

Due to structuring and structured principles, cultural appropriation, the experienced authenticity, the application of a mythic heritage, the attaining of consecrated status by some taste formers within the fan subculture... etc etc.

What about if I put a bodykit on my car to make it look like a Ferrari? It will look more like one then and driving past it might seem authentic.

I know you are way more researched in things like this and cultures but to think if enough people say something it makes it real it's nonsense.

Grendel · Jan 29, 2019

Deleted member 5849 said:
But it is.

Due to structuring and structured principles, cultural appropriation, the experienced authenticity, the application of a mythic heritage, the attaining of consecrated status by some taste formers within the fan subculture... etc etc.

You seem to have a blind spot on the difference between this and other clubs who’ve had a similar fate.

Most were financially bust and could not in the end fulfill any fixtures. It was not a closure due to an empass as to where to play. There was a natural groundswell to build and new club and usually a ground was there to play in so of course the succession looks seamless

Here it’s hardky likely. It will vanish due to action of the ground owners and the club will likely play elsewhere. If it played say at Solihull (pretty plausible) if there was no ground to operate in Coventry in the medium term what then?

Deleted member 5849 · Jan 29, 2019

Nick said:
What about if I put a bodykit on my car to make it look like a Ferrari? It will look more like one then and driving past it might seem authentic.

I know you are way more researched in things like this and cultures but to think if enough people say something it makes it real it's nonsense.

You're coming up with nonsensical and ludicrous suggestions, which fly completely in the face of a) prior evidence and b) the structures of how our society operates.

It's possible (it's always [possible!) that eleventy billion people think a turbot is Coventry City FC. It's highly unlikely.

Deleted member 5849 · Jan 29, 2019

Grendel said:
Most were financially bust and could not in the end fulfill any fixtures

Which is what I'm saying. You appear to have a blind spot of actually reading what I'm saying. ffs, I even include Enfield as an example of why not to form a rival club when the current one's heart is still beating.

(Newport are the finest example of a club where the ground was not there btw. They were locked out of their home, had to travel, came back, were sent off again, came back)

Nick · Jan 29, 2019

Deleted member 5849 said:
You're coming up with nonsensical and ludicrous suggestions, which fly completely in the face of a) prior evidence and b) the structures of how our society operates.

It's possible (it's always [possible!) that eleventy billion people think a turbot is Coventry City FC. It's highly unlikely.

Which is why I gave 2 examples of cars and animals..

Do you not see it's ludicrous to think that Cov Sphinx could be CCFC if enough people think it? Yes, with lots of support behind them they could go up through the leagues.

Crux of the matter is, they aren't CCFC.

mark82 · Jan 29, 2019

Nick said:
I will be over the moon to be proven wrong but there won't be any actual pressure applied to Wasps or the Council. The same as there wasn't about the Higgs.

Let's not forget somebody from / involved with Supporter's Direct actively working with the Council's PR company about a "Media War" and "Doorstepping".

I've certainly seen no evidence of it happening so far.

Nick said:
Which is why I gave 2 examples of cars and animals..

Do you not see it's ludicrous to think that Cov Sphinx could be CCFC if enough people think it? Yes, with lots of support behind them they could go up through the leagues.

Crux of the matter is, they aren't CCFC.

Yes, it is ludicrous to think Coventry Sphinx could be CCFC. No, it's not ludicrous to think that a reformed CCFC are CCFC.

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