Apparentl Joy threatens liquidation if half stadium is vetoed (1 Viewer)

oldskyblue58 · Oct 16, 2012

SkyBlue_Taylor said:
I disagree, money generated off the share will help with cost of running club, buying players and will reduce our debts.

I think you, like some on here, are way too vehemently anti-SISU.

cant get income off the share at the moment .............. it is presently illegal under the Companies Act to pay a dividend because ACL do not have accumulated profits from which to pay it. You do not just look at a profit in a particular year to be able to pay a dividend (the only way you get income from a share), you have to look at all the profits and losses held in the reserves. 2011 accounts showed ACL Group had net accumulated losses of over £2m which at current profits (500k pa) means 5 years before a possibility of dividend............. assuming CCFC pay the rent at £1.2m.

This whole thing is not and never has been about getting income for CCFC ............ it is about getting a capital return on the hedge fund investment

getting the shares will not bring any immediate income for players purchase etc ..... nor will it reduce the rent......... as for debt, well that has to go up doesnt it because CCFC has to pay for the shares in the first place

Chipfat · Oct 16, 2012

This whole thing is not and never has been about getting income for CCFC ............ it is about getting a capital return on the hedge fund investment

This has always been SISU's aim never have they wanted to or considered running the club for a long term project n my opinion. It was supposed to be in and out over a 3 year period and sell to the highest bidder with assets to sell. So anti SISU people have that right and been given plenty or reasons to think that way....

valiant15 · Oct 16, 2012

And why do you think some of us on here are so anti sisu taylor?

lordsummerisle · Oct 16, 2012

DazzleTommyDazzle said:
Think he might be a bit too busy now - it was announced yesterday that he's the new CEO of Hastings Insurance.

They'll start losing a bit of money soon then.

lordsummerisle · Oct 16, 2012

oldskyblue58 said:
bang bang ............. no not really i think you are right to a point .......... but it assumes that ACL make a profit, if it breaks even then the asset value doesnt change or if they lose money then the asset value goes down. Last figures showed ACL group made half a million ........... reduce the CCFC rent and that quickly diminishes unless other income is sourced. You also have to factor in the fact that the long lease is decreasing in value every year and if interest rates ever go up profits will be under a lot of pressure. So you could have the situation whereby the club own 50% of ACL, pay League average rent £150K and the value of the investment is going down, making the whole situation worse not better with income from ACL even further away

Take away the rent entirely from CCFC and they will make a loss then?

DazzleTommyDazzle · Oct 16, 2012

lordsummerisle said:
They'll start losing a bit of money soon then.

I know that your tongue is in your cheek - but it's a very smart move. It's been expected that they'll be going for a float in the next year or two and whatever your personal views, Hoffman will give them serious credibility in the City.

ICHAN · Oct 16, 2012

I'm not a Sisu fan, but I can't see what is wrong with a company wanting to make a profit, after all we all want to make money, if it was you and you had invested in something, wouldn't you want some money back from your investment?
I realize and understand that doesn't help out CCFC but it's business and has been for a long time now, no matter if and when SISU go, the next person or persons who own CCFC will be exactly the same, out to make money.

Personally I feel they have been very naive in their exploits into football and trusted spin doctors to make them money and they found themselves in deep shit before they realized, and it has taken them this long to try and steady their ship, before trying to move the club forward, entirely their fault, they should have looked into it more, but I also think some of the previous advisors they had are to blame as well, and yes that includes Ranson and Hoffman and all of them, non of them in my opinion are blameless for the slow demise of the club.

oldskyblue58 · Oct 16, 2012

lordsummerisle said:
Take away the rent entirely from CCFC and they will make a loss then?

if no alternative income found ................ but at some point CCFC has to pay something or cease to use it you would have to think...... if latter then ACL have to look at alternatives ........... what that means for ccfc is another matter.

The reason they are not paying rent right now is not really about the amount (any amount would be too big).......... it is a strategic decision not to so that they starve ACL of cash, make it a basket case too ....... then when at weakest point they step in with a cheap, never never pay offer to take it all over. That way SISU can sell the whole thing on and recoup a big chunk of their "investment".

ACL are locked into the agreement so at present cannot look to alternatives, but i would think they have done plans to......... if ACL were to put in other sources now it could be seen as breach of the contract and that is risky and costly. SISU playing hard ball and in no rush.

Godiva · Oct 16, 2012

oldskyblue58 said:
if no alternative income found ................ but at some point CCFC has to pay something or cease to use it you would have to think...... if latter then ACL have to look at alternatives ........... what that means for ccfc is another matter.

The reason they are not paying rent right now is not really about the amount (any amount would be too big).......... it is a strategic decision not to so that they starve ACL of cash, make it a basket case too ....... then when at weakest point they step in with a cheap, never never pay offer to take it all over. That way SISU can sell the whole thing on and recoup a big chunk of their "investment".

ACL are locked into the agreement so at present cannot look to alternatives, but i would think they have done plans to......... if ACL were to put in other sources now it could be seen as breach of the contract and that is risky and costly. SISU playing hard ball and in no rush.

The part in bold ... you state it as fact, at least I read it that way.
Surely you must be speculating a bit ...

oldskyblue58 · Oct 16, 2012

nope not stating it as fact it is as with everything else i post in a discussion only my opinion ........... the facts are usually cold hard figures.

so give me an alternative that makes sense ............. because if getting their hands on the charity shares was so vital to the club (thats club not SISU) they would have had the deal in place long ago. A reasonable tenant struggling to pay rent would make a contribution of what they can afford, clearly there are funds available because we have brought in plenty of players etc. Also if i were in their position and wanted the site to get out of a hole, had no allegiance to the club it is a tactic i would certainly seriously consider

skyblueman · Oct 16, 2012

oldskyblue58 said:
if no alternative income found ................ but at some point CCFC has to pay something or cease to use it you would have to think...... if latter then ACL have to look at alternatives ........... what that means for ccfc is another matter.

The reason they are not paying rent right now is not really about the amount (any amount would be too big).......... it is a strategic decision not to so that they starve ACL of cash, make it a basket case too ....... then when at weakest point they step in with a cheap, never never pay offer to take it all over. That way SISU can sell the whole thing on and recoup a big chunk of their "investment".

ACL are locked into the agreement so at present cannot look to alternatives, but i would think they have done plans to......... if ACL were to put in other sources now it could be seen as breach of the contract and that is risky and costly. SISU playing hard ball and in no rush.

Can the charity sell their 50% of ACL to anyone they want to?

fernandopartridge · Oct 16, 2012

DazzleTommyDazzle said:
I know that your tongue is in your cheek - but it's a very smart move. It's been expected that they'll be going for a float in the next year or two and whatever your personal views, Hoffman will give them serious credibility in the City.

Best to have an absolute floater in charge then eh

fernandopartridge · Oct 16, 2012

skyblueman said:
Can the charity sell their 50% of ACL to anyone they want to?

I thought the charity could only sell their share to the football club or have I imagined it?

skyblueman · Oct 16, 2012

fernandopartridge said:
I thought the charity could only sell their share to the football club or have I imagined it?

That's what I thought just wanted to clarify it - bit of a crap deal for them if that's true

lordsummerisle · Oct 16, 2012

fernandopartridge said:
I thought the charity could only sell their share to the football club or have I imagined it?

Was that only for so long though?

Sure that the option to buy at the £10million or so was only about 6 years?

If so, then must be coming up to expiry soon which would explain the more recent serious talks about it.

Grendel · Oct 16, 2012

Godiva said:
The part in bold ... you state it as fact, at least I read it that way.
Surely you must be speculating a bit ...

It seems the logical conclusion to be fair. As the significant revenue generator this is an obvious strategy to force the sale.

oldskyblue58 · Oct 16, 2012

my understanding would be that the option is there so the club have the first opportunity to purchase without competition for a specified period, usually there is a calculation for price set down but that could be open to negotiation............ after that and no deal done, once option period lapses i would think it is up for grabs should the charity wish to sell. Would need to check if option period still valid but if it wasnt they could have agreed an exclusivity agreement in the heads of agreement so that keeps competition away for a period

it is CCFC that has the option and it can not be transferred

Godiva · Oct 16, 2012

oldskyblue58 said:
nope not stating it as fact it is as with everything else i post in a discussion only my opinion ........... the facts are usually cold hard figures.

so give me an alternative that makes sense ............. because if getting their hands on the charity shares was so vital to the club (thats club not SISU) they would have had the deal in place long ago. A reasonable tenant struggling to pay rent would make a contribution of what they can afford, clearly there are funds available because we have brought in plenty of players etc. Also if i were in their position and wanted the site to get out of a hole, had no allegiance to the club it is a tactic i would certainly seriously consider

I am relieved it was your oppinion, and not facts.

But OSB, you're one of my hero's here, so when you present your speculations in a way I confuse with facts, I immediately assume that what you say is how it is.
Next thing I start babbling away in other posts using your speculations as my own truth .... you know, it's like Hans Christian Andersens fairytale 'There's no doubt about it': http://hca.gilead.org.il/no_doubt.html

I could present a different oppinion, but actually it would be very boring and totally stripped of drama. Something like two parties trying to reach an agreement that suits both and lay a long term foundation.
Of course I could add some extra tension and put in a name like Mutton.
I could even twist it a bit with a sideshow of outsiders interests and how they put up false rumors on a fans forum.

DazzleTommyDazzle · Oct 16, 2012

Godiva said:
I could present a different oppinion, but actually it would be very boring and totally stripped of drama. Something like two parties trying to reach an agreement that suits both and lay a long term foundation.
Of course I could add some extra tension and put in a name like Mutton.
I could even twist it a bit with a sideshow of outsiders interests and how they put up false rumors on a fans forum.

And your view on whether the moon landings really happened??

oldskyblue58 · Oct 16, 2012

Godiva said:
I am relieved it was your oppinion, and not facts.

I could present a different oppinion, but actually it would be very boring and totally stripped of drama. Something like two parties trying to reach an agreement that suits both and lay a long term foundation.
Of course I could add some extra tension and put in a name like Mutton.
I could even twist it a bit with a sideshow of outsiders interests and how they put up false rumors on a fans forum.

you could yes .......... but not sure you would entirely believe it . There is no element of synergy, partnership, etc displayed from the SISU camp,............ a reasonable person without other motive would contribute to the rent even if they couldnt meet the legally binding contract in full. A reasonable business partner would not starve the other of income whilst making no effort to pay the rent. If it wasnt a long term strategy you wouldnt move the offices from the Ricoh to Ryton, you wouldnt have CCFC staff looking to sneak round the Ricoh to find free rooms to have meetings. Will weakening ACL affect any option formula or price to be agreed with the Charity ? dont know but I would guess SISU would argue it does - i would.

Think you have to put yourself in SISU's shoes and think what would i do (........ not into cross dressing though so would rather not be in joys shoes ! )

what would you be prepared to do to get the price down ? Look at the SISU track record not just here..... do they play hard ball to get things they want? Dont get me wrong i dont have a problem with the notion of profit ...... i am merely giving my interpretation of what i see..... Things could be very different behind the scenes but from what I know i think i have made a reasonable assessment

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Oct 16, 2012

I make reference to press cuttings dated 2007, and therefore referring back to 2005:

Sisu keeps a determinedly low profile but was catapulted into the limelight two years ago when its chief executive Joy Seppala, a 46-year-old Finnish-American, was accused of lying in a High Court wrangle over bust electricity company TXU. Seppala who is described by rivals as having 'balls of steel', was criticised by the trial judge over her ' distorted recollection of events' and for being 'prone to exaggerate'.

lordsummerisle · Oct 16, 2012

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
I make reference to press cuttings dated 2007, and therefore referring back to 2005:

Sisu keeps a determinedly low profile but was catapulted into the limelight two years ago when its chief executive Joy Seppala, a 46-year-old Finnish-American, was accused of lying in a High Court wrangle over bust electricity company TXU. Seppala who is described by rivals as having 'balls of steel', was criticised by the trial judge over her ' distorted recollection of events' and for being 'prone to exaggerate'.

Funny how when it was pointed out at the time of the take-over that many seemed to think it was a good thing, "We won't get turned over by anybody", "Hard-headed businessmen", "At least we're not Southampton" etc.

The same who applauded it then, seem shocked that it's the case now and have come over all virginal and surprised.

valiant15 · Oct 16, 2012

How were people supposed to know what sisu would be like back then when we didn't know anything about them?

lordsummerisle · Oct 16, 2012

valiant15 said:
How were people supposed to know what sisu would be like back then when we didn't know anything about them?

Yes we did, what MMM has posted what I posted at the time of the take-over, and during the early days exactly what he has.

People can't use the "hindsight" excuse, it was all there beforehand if people wanted to look and listen.

People just fell for the Ranson bullshit, and the "hedge-funds know how to make money" stuff etc(Though some wouldn't even acknowledge they were a hedge-fund, Ginetta, their biggest apologist, I'm looking at you).

Steve.B50 · Oct 16, 2012

This is why we need the Sky Blue Trust.

oldskyblue58 · Oct 16, 2012

wasnt on here at the time but on BBC site ............ was saying then be careful what we wish for..... hedge funds have one objective, money at all costs.

Have to say i got it wrong ........... they have been worse than I thought, because they and their associates have been inept, not approached the whole project as i would have expected and ended up in a complete mess of their own making that they are now claiming credit for trying to sort out !

DazzleTommyDazzle · Oct 16, 2012

At the time of the takeover I was happy that someone was prepared to invest in us.

I was also hopeful that we would gain some competitive advantage by being run as a professional organisation.

I did however have a concern that if things went badly, SISU would be unlikely to "do the right thing" and put the football club first.

What I never expected was that SISU would prove to be so inept.

skyblueman · Oct 16, 2012

Fundamentally I believe SISU are victims of their own Egos in so far as they believe past success ensures future success - just like many Venture Capitalists they think they are better and smarter than the norm and can turn anything around and make a killing - works in many failing businesses which are usually just starved of cash and with stale management - if you've got some money and a few contacts it's not all that hard - but football clubs are a very specialist kind of business and they obviously do not have the right skills or mentality to make it work

Godiva · Oct 16, 2012

DazzleTommyDazzle said:
And your view on whether the moon landings really happened??

Don't be daft! Of course we landed on the moon.
Otherwise we wouldn't have green cheese ....

Nick · Oct 16, 2012

Steve.B50 said:
This is why we need the Sky Blue Trust.

What exactly can they do?

lordsummerisle · Oct 16, 2012

Nick said:
What exactly can they do?

Give Joe Elliott a lifetime membership for saving us with Sisu?

davebart · Oct 16, 2012

covcity4life said:
club needs to move forward.

I am sure they can get away with moving backwards. Dr Who can do it.

skyblue1523 · Oct 16, 2012

i know sisu is hated by most of us fans and they do seem to be doing the right thing this season so i don't belive this story you don't put all your cards down when playing poker and you don't clear all the debts if you are going to put the club into liquidation. just my thoughts

Bennets Afro · Oct 16, 2012

Would anyone be happy if sisu bought the Higgs share for say £10m and then sold it on for market value including the club for say £40m?

skyblueman · Oct 16, 2012

Bennets Afro said:
Would anyone be happy if sisu bought the Higgs share for say £10m and then sold it on for market value including the club for say £40m?

Not sure it's worth as much as £40 million as a package but yes I'd be OK with that as things stand - new owners and half share of the stadium lease - works for me

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