Are we being a little harsh? (8 Viewers)

shmmeee · Feb 22, 2015

The more salient point would be to ask whether our poor record is all down to the manager or the state of the club as a whole?

Pressley is doing what almost every other manager before him has done: stick at around 35% win ratio and struggle near relegation.

Is the club set up to do any better?

shmmeee · Feb 22, 2015

Deleted member 5849 said:
We lost to Preston.

You heard him in OP: of the last 4 we drew 4 lost 1. What doesn't make sense about that?

Deleted member 5849 · Feb 22, 2015

shmmeee said:
The more salient point would be to ask whether our poor record is all down to the manager or the state of the club as a whole?

Pressley is doing what almost every other manager before him has done: stick at around 35% win ratio and struggle near relegation.

Is the club set up to do any better?

That would indeed be reasonable to ask.

Maybe not in an optimistic way, however!

Otis · Feb 22, 2015

Paxman II said:
Yes we have not won but we were not defeated either. Fine margins that have reasonable excuse. I expect wins to follow but most just don't want to accept that is possible do they?

Where is there optimism when in the last 3 games we lost, then only salvaged a draw in injury time and then threw away a 2-0 lead playing against 10 men with just 15 mins left of the game?

stupot07 · Feb 22, 2015

Paxman II said:
It's seems strange to me that everyone to a man said we would be thumped off the park at Sheffield yet we were 2 nil up and playing well before that late collapse or was that a fight back from a promotion pushing side?

I don't know whether you missed it, but we were playing against 10 men for 70+ mins. You can't read too much into us "playing them off the park" when we were playing against 10 men......after all how did the PL leaders get on after being 1-0 up getting a man sent off with 20 mins (less than a 1/3rd of the time we played against 10 men) against a side in the relegation zone?

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Deleted member 5849 · Feb 22, 2015

shmmeee said:
You heard him in OP: of the last 4 we drew 4 lost 1. What doesn't make sense about that?

So we've been defeated.

westcountry_skyblue · Feb 22, 2015

Paxman II said:
Do you? Or are you one of those saying we are down?
Too many on here lambast our club and team at the drop of a hat. It's seems strange to me that everyone to a man said we would be thumped off the park at Sheffield yet we were 2 nil up and playing well before that late collapse or was that a fight back from a promotion pushing side?

You have to be more philosophical about it rather than just lambasting everything so it suits the agenda you wish to portray.
Yes we have shit owners, a manager struggling but I can see positives from the most recent results and expect there are a few wins coming.
But then that has always been the case in Coventry. A huge lack of optimism in everything. This board is full of threads about protest this protest that. When will we ever knuckle down and show support for the team we confess to love and that that message convey through to the players?
The ones that really do are those that travel away and to you I salute.

Yes i look at it,Pressley seems to be sleepwalking hoping things happen but they are clearly not.
Stats don't win games,If we have no midfield why not lump it long with all our strikers and stop this crab like pissing about in midfield !!

shmmeee · Feb 22, 2015

Deleted member 5849 said:
So we've been defeated.

I think he was perfectly clear

stupot07 · Feb 22, 2015

Paxman II said:
Yes we have not won but we were not defeated either. Fine margins that have reasonable excuse. I expect wins to follow but most just don't want to accept that is possible do they?

We've lost 3 of our last 7 games and not won in that time?

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Deleted member 5849 · Feb 22, 2015

shmmeee said:
I think he was perfectly clear

Deleted member 5849 said:
Zero wins:thinking about:

Paxman II said:
Yes we have not won but we were not defeated either. Fine margins that have reasonable excuse. I expect wins to follow but most just don't want to accept that is possible do they?

Not been defeated... apart from the defeat.

Paxman II · Feb 22, 2015

shmmeee said:
The more salient point would be to ask whether our poor record is all down to the manager or the state of the club as a whole?

Pressley is doing what almost every other manager before him has done: stick at around 35% win ratio and struggle near relegation.

Is the club set up to do any better?

This is a good point, one I was hinting at. If we all played our part and gave wonderful support would it make any difference? Is the club so rotten from top to bottom it makes the manager and team an almost impossible stab at any success?

shmmeee · Feb 22, 2015

Deleted member 5849 said:
Not been defeated... apart from the defeat.

Exactly.

stupot07 · Feb 22, 2015

shmmeee said:
The more salient point would be to ask whether our poor record is all down to the manager or the state of the club as a whole?

Pressley is doing what almost every other manager before him has done: stick at around 35% win ratio and struggle near relegation.

Is the club set up to do any better?

But our win ratio is 22% not 35% this season in the league.

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Otis · Feb 22, 2015

stupot07 said:
But our win ratio is 22% not 35% this season in the league.

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Yep. We can only dream of 35% at the moment.

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Feb 22, 2015

Paxman II said:
Yes we have not won but we were not defeated either. Fine margins that have reasonable excuse. I expect wins to follow but most just don't want to accept that is possible do they?

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Feb 22, 2015

Deleted member 5849 said:
Not been defeated... apart from the defeat.

Yes but it was a winning defeat, don't you where paxman is coming from?

shmmeee · Feb 22, 2015

Paxman II said:
This is a good point, one I was hinting at. If we all played our part and gave wonderful support would it make any difference? Is the club so rotten from top to bottom it makes the manager and team an almost impossible stab at any success?

Who knows? Who among us hasn't had the quiet thought that maybe, after changing everything from the owners to the ground and all in between, the one connecting factor in our failure is us fans? I do believe in organisational "culture" though and it spreading from the top mainly. I sometimes wonder if Robins did so well as much because the club were genuinely trying for promotion as anything else. If the focus switches to survival, or whatever the hell the focus of our club is now, then that permeates through to the players and ultimately to the fans. Then it's just a vicious cycle.

Basically, until the message from the top (in terms of words and actions) is that we're going places, it won't matter too much who is below them.

Then again, Chris Coleman proves that you then need a decent manager as well, and maybe Pressley is showing that that's not him.

The Gentleman · Feb 22, 2015

Paxman II said:
Yes we have not won but we were not defeated either. Fine margins that have reasonable excuse. I expect wins to follow but most just don't want to accept that is possible do they?

I would at least be a little optimistic if the team showed that they are up for a fight but Saturday epitomised everything about our current plight. Rabbits in headlights when we needed leaders, both on and off the pitch.

Why do you expect wins? teams do not have a divine right to win games when they think they are playing 'ok'. Just because we play ok in patches does not mean we will win, or that our next win is just round the corner.

Or maybe you are right, things are turning but the sad fact is if we are relegated by mid April then winning whilst playing well in our last 3 games won't matter for shit.

Deleted member 5849 · Feb 22, 2015

shmmeee said:
I sometimes wonder if Robins did so well as much because the club were genuinely trying for promotion as anything else.

Pressley had a decent half a season too (arguably better given the circumstances). The only difference is Robins had the sense to jump while he could!

We've had many managers who've had spurts. Black, Adams, Dowie... hell even Reid started alright until we sold Davenport from under him. Black and Robins survive with reputations intact as much because they were lucky enough not to fall victim to the insidious destruction that lies within.

The Gentleman · Feb 22, 2015

CCFC said:
Yes but it was a winning defeat, don't you where paxman is coming from?

I think Pax has just come from an 'evening with Pressley' talking about positivity and flying in the face of common sense.

shmmeee · Feb 22, 2015

stupot07 said:
But our win ratio is 22% not 35% this season in the league.

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Fair point. I haven't checked since before our current slide.

Maybe I'm just a miserable fucker, but I can't help feeling that we're having this conversation repeatedly and nothing ever changes. I'd love to believe all we need is a change of manager and we'll be right, but even if said manager did keep us up this season, who is to say we won't be here again in a year's time? Let's not forget that any payoff for Pressley would be certainly taken out of next season's budget, and looking at the who will renew thread, that's going to be pretty light already.

shmmeee · Feb 22, 2015

Deleted member 5849 said:
Pressley had a decent half a season too (arguably better given the circumstances). The only difference is Robins had the sense to jump while he could!

We've had many managers who've had spurts. Black, Adams, Dowie... hell even Reid started alright until we sold Davenport from under him. Black and Robins survive with reputations intact as much because they were lucky enough not to fall victim to the insidious destruction that lies within.

You're preaching to the choir man, I've made the exact same argument, we've had no manager who has performed over a full season or more since Strachan really. Edit: and even his good season had some serious flaws.

Edit 2: To expand on this a bit:

I know both Richardson and Ranson get a fair amount of stick on here (as well as Paul Fletcher), a lot of it fair, but one thing that they did is set a course for the club. It may have been overreaching, or the wrong course at the wrong time, but it let everyone in the club know what the plan was and what the expectations were.

This allows for a fully congruent club, with everyone pulling in the same direction. If you disagree with the vision you can shape up or ship out, it gives the organisation a cohesive language and direction. Whether particular people are competent, or whether the direction as a whole is correct, is a different issue, it's about the effectiveness of it as a management strategy.

Compare this to the stated aims of Fisher, Delieu <sp?> or McGinnity. They were solely about administration of the club, the wage bill, the finances, income streams, the stadium, etc, etc. What, realistically, can a player, manager, tea lady, etc, do about those aims? Take a pay cut? Pick up less win bonuses (j/k for the tin foil hat wearers)? And even if people do buy into this vision, what energy does it create around the club? Is that the energy you want to bring onto a football pitch?

There's no role for anyone else outside of the board in this vision. The problem then is that fans don't really want to buy into this vision, so you have to sell the sizzle (as the sausage has been cut for budget reasons) and talk the talk about say, becoming a stable club, except the budget dictates that you can't build a stable team as good players leave and others need to go quickly for cost reasons. You can't realistically claim you're aiming for promotion, so what do players talk about in the papers? What does the manager talk about? Because it's not your focus the message about where the club is going on the pitch becomes fuzzy. So your message isn't congruent, it doesn't feel authentic, and people are turned off by that on a deep level (think fake salespeople, or creepy realistic robots).

Even if your real aim is to cut costs, you need to achieve it with an inspirational vision that the entire club can rally around. That's very hard to do when there's no chance of claiming you're going for promotion, and the club is under no real immediate threat as Sisu can keep it going as long as they like. So you get this grey blob of apathy which is where we are now.

tl;dr: The club needs leadership from the top before changing the middle management will be effective.

Deleted member 5849 · Feb 22, 2015

shmmeee said:
You're preaching to the choir man, I've made the exact same argument, we've had no manager who has performed over a full season or more since Strachan really.

Go further back than that, Phil Neal!

Strachan couldn't win away in one of his two 'good' seasons, and the other was rescued by a spurt of form for a dozen games before crashing down against... Sheff Utd.

Of course Phil Neal the last manager before Geoffrey Robinson got proper involved...

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Feb 22, 2015

The Gentleman said:
I think Pax has just come from an 'evening with Pressley' talking about positivity and flying in the face of common sense.

4 points from the last 5 games, what isn't there to be optimistic about.

Only 12 points off the play offs, that's only 4 wins.

Astute · Feb 23, 2015

Paxman II said:
I was giving the opinion based on the last 5 games not season long and for that alone think there is optimism. You can spin it however you like but they are the facts.
I quantified my position by expressly saying it was not in support of SP or the season so far just these recent games against either in form or resurgent sides.
If you can't see that as fact then you have sky blue specs on and are driving in the pessimist lane.
We have a game in hand over the team above. We are a mere couple of wins from respectability the league is so close.
That's just a fact.
BUT we need to get those wins and not narrow defeats or draws, which is a thought I can accept.

Sky blue specs?

We have had this same debate all season. Some of us could see that all wasn't well at the start of the season. But the sky blue specs told us that we would do well as we didn't have a points deduction and were playing in a poor division. You name a good point as not winning in the last 5 games? A couple of wins away from respectability? I can spin it? Sky blue specs giving the pessimistic line? How about facts and not hoping for the best.

We are in a relegation place.

23rd place is only a point away with a better GD.

19th place are 5 points ahead of us so there is now a gap from us to safety.

We have only won 1 game in the last 11.

Only one club has scored less goals than us.

No club has won less games than us.

Never mind. We have MK Dons next. They have lost less than 20% of their games this season and are in 2nd. And if we win our next two games and all the clubs above us and below us lose we will pull away from the bottom. That is only winning twice the amount of games that we have won in the last 11.....which is a 1/3rd of the season so far.

We have now only won once in the last 11 games.

torchomatic · Feb 23, 2015

I like SP, I really do, but even I'm at the point where I think we should maybe have a change. However, it's not just down to him. It's the general state of the club as Shmmeee stated. His hands are tied because of SISU so he can only work what he can work with. Saying that, I would say many players in our squad are better than bottom four, so who knows.

As for Saturday and being too harsh. Yes, I think we are. A draw away from home against Sheff United is a great result really, but yeah losing a two-nil lead was a bit rubbish. However, not like we've not done this before either with or without SP.

Otis · Feb 23, 2015

torchomatic said:
I like SP, I really do, but even I'm at the point where I think we should maybe have a change. However, it's not just down to him. It's the general state of the club as Shmmeee stated. His hands are tied because of SISU so he can only work what he can work with. Saying that, I would say many players in our squad are better than bottom four, so who knows.

As for Saturday and being too harsh. Yes, I think we are. A draw away from home against Sheff United is a great result really, but yeah losing a two-nil lead was a bit rubbish. However, not like we've not done this before either with or without SP.

Well this I agree with about him. He does have his hands tied for sure, but at the same time, even with the players we have got we should still be doing better. I totally backed him until Christmas, but at that point it just seemed like he had slightly lost the plot and we looked on a slippery slope.

I think the club need to do all they can to prevent us from being relegated and the obvious solution now would be to bring someone new in and history tells us that in many instances a new man at the helm brings an immediate upturn in fortunes.

davebart · Feb 23, 2015

Maybe I've missed it but no one appears to have commented upon SP's comment after the match about the age and inexperience of our players.

The whole point of his appointment in the first place was to reduce the age of the squad and bring through younger and cheaper players.

He champions bringing through youngsters. It is HIS philosophy.

How can he now have the bare faced cheek to blame youth and inexperience?

Otis · Feb 23, 2015

davebart said:
Maybe I've missed it but no one appears to have commented upon SP's comment after the match about the age and inexperience of our players.

The whole point of his appointment in the first place was to reduce the age of the squad and bring through younger and cheaper players.

He champions bringing through youngsters. It is HIS philosophy.

How can he now have the bare faced cheek to blame youth and inexperience?

Fair point.

hill83 · Feb 23, 2015

Pressleys hands may be tied but any manager worthy of the name would have rope burn on his wrists fighting hard to sort this shit out. Pressley is sat there praising the players with nice shiny unblemished wrists.

He is a tool. And the telegraph can fuck off too. Putting it down to bad luck now. Fucking pricks.

fernandopartridge · Feb 23, 2015

davebart said:
Maybe I've missed it but no one appears to have commented upon SP's comment after the match about the age and inexperience of our players.

The whole point of his appointment in the first place was to reduce the age of the squad and bring through younger and cheaper players.

He champions bringing through youngsters. It is HIS philosophy.

How can he now have the bare faced cheek to blame youth and inexperience?

Perhaps he should have worded it differently. If he came out and said that "These things happen with a young squad, it's a learning curve..." he may have received a bit more sympathy.

turlykerd · Feb 23, 2015

I strongly disagree with knee jerk reactions and the chopping of managers during a season , I look at Charlton or Fulham to name but a few who have gone down this road and ended up worse.
I have also backed SP consistantly as I like his passion and connections with the club.

But I'm finding it harder and harder as I see this dismal team and results come in week after week.

My optimistic tendencies have been eroded not by the slow drip of an unlucky run of games, but by the biblical floods of over a year of catastrophic displays, tactics and piss poor ownership of this club I love

covcity4life · Feb 23, 2015

hope for the gentleman yet.

stupot07 · Feb 23, 2015

He's been sacked. So I guess no, we weren't being harsh.

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turlykerd · Feb 23, 2015

Not a suprise.

And you can't say he wasn't given enough time or chance

Are we being a little harsh? (8 Viewers)

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