Auditors query Coventry City FC as a going concern (1 Viewer)

[stupot07]

Would have been interesting to see what rent we would have been charged by a Sisu related company and what % of revenues came our way and to the Sisu related company

£4m per annum rent and 0.5% revenues.


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[Grendel]

Regardless of how Wasps operate, he's reaffirming the point that CCFC would rent via SISU - despite Fisher, Lab et all always saying the club must own its own stadium.

They have always send a separate holding company would own the stadium as would any company - what are you on about?

 

[Grendel]

Would have been interesting to see what rent we would have been charged by a Sisu related company and what % of revenues came our way and to the Sisu related company

I would imagine £300 million a year and would get the price of one balti pie a season as extra revenue.

Thank God for the Malta based hedge fund.

 

[The Gentleman]

£4m per annum rent and 0.5% revenues.


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So despite us being told we need to own our stadium (which I think is right) , no-one has the slightest idea what a deal under a Sisu related company would be compared to the one we have now. Also, weren't we told that once we are making profit the loans have to be re-paid? What would that cost us?

I know that a new stadium makes sense but would Sisu sell once we had one or would they keep bleeding everything they could for a few more years to come?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

If the 50% revenues are true then the club need to get this for the long term.
There is no way then that a new stadium would be any better.
Then we can to start to get other commercial incomes built up although in this league who's interested?

But hey lets not do any of that and just continue with the JR and concentrate our efforts on a new stadium.

Why on Earth shouldn't we get all of it?

 

[The Gentleman]

I would imagine £300 million a year and would get the price of one balti pie a season as extra revenue.

Thank God for the Malta based hedge fund.

Thanks. Are you still CCFC's number 1 stay away fan?

 

[Grendel]

So despite us being told we need to own our stadium (which I think is right) , no-one has the slightest idea what a deal under a Sisu related company would be compared to the one we have now. Also, weren't we told that once we are making profit the loans have to be re-paid? What would that cost us?

I know that a new stadium makes sense but would Sisu sell once we had one or would they keep bleeding everything they could for a few more years to come?

How could they bleed anyone with a stadium in the sticks? No revenue to be gained is there?

 

[RegTheDonk]

They have always send a separate holding company would own the stadium as would any company - what are you on about?

Please define "always". Its only recently that Fisher has confirmed that CCFC would rent any new stadium. You need to re-address that question to Fisher and Lab, who have on umpteen occasions over the last year or so stated that the Club must own its own stadium.

 

[Grendel]

Thanks. Are you still CCFC's number 1 stay away fan?

If people had stayed away as much as I have over the last 40 years we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

 

[The Gentleman]

How could they bleed anyone with a stadium in the sticks? No revenue to be gained is there?

I don't think they could, but a few on here seem to think that is a better option than renting at the Ricoh and pushing for a better deal. People think that Wasps will do what they want but surely we hold a few chips too. What would another rent strike and fucking off to Sixfields cost them?

 

[Grendel]

Please define "always". Its only recently that Fisher has confirmed that CCFC would rent any new stadium. You need to re-address that question to Fisher and Lab, who have on umpteen occasions over the last year or so stated that the Club must own its own stadium.

No they haven't - they said they need to own access to all the revenues.

 

[The Gentleman]

If people had stayed away as much as I have over the last 40 years we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

So you've been NOPM for 40 years?

 

[Tonylinc]

If people had stayed away as much as I have over the last 40 years we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

If you have stayed away for the last 40years why the hell are you on this board? Serious question.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

If you have stayed away for the last 40years why the hell are you on this board? Serious question.

He is being facetious.

 

[stupot07]

So despite us being told we need to own our stadium (which I think is right) , no-one has the slightest idea what a deal under a Sisu related company would be compared to the one we have now. Also, weren't we told that once we are making profit the loans have to be re-paid? What would that cost us?

I know that a new stadium makes sense but would Sisu sell once we had one or would they keep bleeding everything they could for a few more years to come?

I agree. We need to see a proper business plan with all costs, income forecasts, rent/revenue agreements, future plans, company structure, exit strategies, etc without it we can't really back or bin the stadium idea. We're just in the dark not believing it's going to happen.


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[Godiva]

£5.6M to Appleton, lost revenue (on-going because an unknown amount of fans are sticking firm to. NOPM) from the Sixfields piss take, their own ongoing legal bill, the councils on going legal bill, the cost of employing consultants in the building development industry to maintain the charade of the new ground. They're fucking idiots. Talk about biting your nose of to spite your face. Fuck me, forget buying the Ricoh. By the time these idiots are finished racking up bills in the pursuit of god knows what it is they want now they could have bought the Ricoh and funded us back to premier league status.

They have to go before they bury us with themselves.

No, Appelton didn't receive £5.6m. 'Administration cost' is not only the cost of the administration case, it includes overheads, insurances, travel, office costs etc. But it is extraordinary high as it includes a write of of Goodwill by some £2m+. I am not even sure that Appeltons Fee is in there - it could well be part of the total amount Otium paid for the assets in CCFC ltd, and in that case it would be a cost that was within the total Goodwill posted in the accounts as an asset (from where a hefty amount was subsequently written off).

Edit: The administration cost also include the £460k to ACL as dictated by the FL.

 

[The Gentleman]

I agree. We need to see a proper business plan with all costs, income forecasts, rent/revenue agreements, future plans, company structure, exit strategies, etc without it we can't really back or bin the stadium idea. We're just in the dark not believing it's going to happen.


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But surely if they were serious about a new stadium and believed in their own words about the need for it, then we would of had more than just a shitty picture in 2 years. You see, If I was desperate for something to start making me money, I would do it in a heartbeat, as would any person who was serious.

 

[stupot07]

But surely if they were serious about a new stadium and believed in their own words about the need for it, then we would of had more than just a shitty picture in 2 years. You see, If I was desperate for something to start making me money, I would do it in a heartbeat, as would any person who was serious.

I think we all know it's not going to happen, but that doesn't mean we just panic, and jump into a long deal with wasps now, especially as there's another 3 years left on this one. I honestly don't think I can go to the ricoh and watch us when they eventually change all of the seats. It's just an extra kick in the bollocks.


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[skybluetony176]

No, Appelton didn't receive £5.6m. 'Administration cost' is not only the cost of the administration case, it includes overheads, insurances, travel, office costs etc. But it is extraordinary high as it includes a write of of Goodwill by some £2m+. I am not even sure that Appeltons Fee is in there - it could well be part of the total amount Otium paid for the assets in CCFC ltd, and in that case it would be a cost that was within the total Goodwill posted in the accounts as an asset (from where a hefty amount was subsequently written off).

Fair enough. I was clearly generalising too much between Appleton and the process. I stand by everything else though. They would have got better odds by blowing all the money thrown away on lottery tickets.

 

[Godiva]

Fair enough. I was clearly generalising too much between Appleton and the process. I stand by everything else though. They would have got better odds by blowing all the money thrown away on lottery tickets.

I agree the legal fees could have been better used elsewhere - but please remember it takes two to fight.

 

[duffer]

So because we blew the chance of access to all streams, then this is the best deal we can get for the long term (say 10 years)?

Personally speaking, I'd say no. I would, quite honestly, sit tight.

However, let's say that you did decide to do a deal with Wasps along these lines - if I was negotiating, I'd start along the lines that without CCFC playing, there is no matchday income at the Ricoh. However having the club here generates footfall (good for naming rights etc,), and more importantly goodwill.

Do us a good deal (I'd say were I Fisher) and we'll plug you at every opportunity as helpful partners, and actively encourage our fans to cross over and support you too. Get your lads in to do crossbar challenges and penalties at half-time, maybe even do a deal on combined tickets, that sort of thing.

Stitch us up, and we'll make it known to every one of our fans that supporting Wasps goes against CCFC's best interests.

I'd start by asking for some of the 24/7/365 revenue to do this, and then negotiate from there. I certainly wouldn't settle for 50% of match day revenue, and I wouldn't want to pay £100k/p.a. to rent either.

 

[Jonty1]

No, Appelton didn't receive £5.6m. 'Administration cost' is not only the cost of the administration case, it includes overheads, insurances, travel, office costs etc. But it is extraordinary high as it includes a write of of Goodwill by some £2m+. I am not even sure that Appeltons Fee is in there - it could well be part of the total amount Otium paid for the assets in CCFC ltd, and in that case it would be a cost that was within the total Goodwill posted in the accounts as an asset (from where a hefty amount was subsequently written off).

Edit: The administration cost also include the £460k to ACL as dictated by the FL.

Unbelievable that Accountancy Age confused 'administration costs' of the company with the cost of the administration(which is clearly set out in the returns Appleton has to file at Companies House). I guess the goodwill write off will include whatever Otium paid to the administrator to buy the business of CCFC-again this will be set out in his return to Companies House.

 

[skybluetony176]

I agree the legal fees could have been better used elsewhere - but please remember it takes two to fight.

It ain't been much of a fight. One party giving it the bigun with a reputation that's clearly a rumour that they started themselves and making the other party look like Ali in the rumble in the jungle. When it came to the fight CCC roped a dope.

 

[Godiva]

Unbelievable that Accountancy Age confused 'administration costs' of the company with the cost of the administration(which is clearly set out in the returns Appleton has to file at Companies House). I guess the goodwill write off will include whatever Otium paid to the administrator to buy the business of CCFC-again this will be set out in his return to Companies House.

Yeah, they obviously didn't graduate from OSB's online course.

 

[The Gentleman]

Personally speaking, I'd say no. I would, quite honestly, sit tight.

However, let's say that you did decide to do a deal with Wasps along these lines - if I was negotiating, I'd start along the lines that without CCFC playing, there is no matchday income at the Ricoh. However having the club here generates footfall (good for naming rights etc,), and more importantly goodwill.

Do us a good deal (I'd say were I Fisher) and we'll plug you at every opportunity as helpful partners, and actively encourage our fans to cross over and support you too. Get your lads in to do crossbar challenges and penalties at half-time, maybe even do a deal on combined tickets, that sort of thing.

Stitch us up, and we'll make it known to every one of our fans that supporting Wasps goes against CCFC's best interests.

I'd start by asking for some of the 24/7/365 revenue to do this, and then negotiate from there. I certainly wouldn't settle for 50% of match day revenue, and I wouldn't want to pay £100k/p.a. to rent either.

This is what I mean and you're right about us being in a position of some strength(as I said in an earlier post) . Wasps already know that Sisu would piss off at a moments notice and that would be a chunk out of their money.

You say some good points and I would also be saying that if we had a better partnership, anything extra that CCFC brought to the Ricoh would get a good slice of and would just give Wasps say a 10% management fee because if we didn't bring it, it wouldn't be there.

As Italia mentions, it's not the best situation and deal in the world but it could be a lot worse (Sixfields) and with good negotiating it could turn out in our favour and start getting us a foot in the door a bit more.

 

[Tonylinc]

Personally speaking, I'd say no. I would, quite honestly, sit tight.

However, let's say that you did decide to do a deal with Wasps along these lines - if I was negotiating, I'd start along the lines that without CCFC playing, there is no matchday income at the Ricoh. However having the club here generates footfall (good for naming rights etc,), and more importantly goodwill.

Do us a good deal (I'd say were I Fisher) and we'll plug you at every opportunity as helpful partners, and actively encourage our fans to cross over and support you too. Get your lads in to do crossbar challenges and penalties at half-time, maybe even do a deal on combined tickets, that sort of thing.

Stitch us up, and we'll make it known to every one of our fans that supporting Wasps goes against CCFC's best interests.

I'd start by asking for some of the 24/7/365 revenue to do this, and then negotiate from there. I certainly wouldn't settle for 50% of match day revenue, and I wouldn't want to pay £100k/p.a. to rent either.

Don't think the article says that we only get 50% of "matchday", revenue. Think that the 50% is related to F&B and possibly parking.

 

[duffer]

Don't think the article says that we only get 50% of "matchday", revenue. Think that the 50% is related to F&B and possibly parking.

Yep, sorry Tony, was paraphrasing. I'm sure we get 100% of the ticket sales - I meant the ancillary stuff like F&B and parking. Stuff that only comes if we're playing at the Ricoh.

 

[RegTheDonk]

No they haven't - they said they need to own access to all the revenues.

No they haven't -

http://www.ccfc.co.uk/news/article/...-waggott-fisher-labovitch-010914-1890843.aspx

http://ccfctv.co.uk/2013/12/20/mark-labovitch-sky-sports-news-interview-transcript/

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/buying-land-new-coventry-city-6404266

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/coventry-city-miss-eight-week-target-6039709


If they've done a U turn and now its OK to rent as long (from SISU of course!) as they get the revenues, that's fine. But don't pretend they've always led us to believe this is the case.

 

[Tonylinc]

Yep, sorry Tony, was paraphrasing. I'm sure we get 100% of the ticket sales - I meant the ancillary stuff like F&B and parking. Stuff that only comes if we're playing at the Ricoh.

That's OK but unlike you I think that negotiating now would be better than waiting. The reason I say that is that Wasps have yet to fully assess their investment and there must be some doubts as to its profitability so, "strike while the iron is hot", as it were.

 

[duffer]

This is what I mean and you're right about us being in a position of some strength(as I said in an earlier post) . Wasps already know that Sisu would piss off at a moments notice and that would be a chunk out of their money.

You say some good points and I would also be saying that if we had a better partnership, anything extra that CCFC brought to the Ricoh would get a good slice of and would just give Wasps say a 10% management fee because if we didn't bring it, it wouldn't be there.

As Italia mentions, it's not the best situation and deal in the world but it could be a lot worse (Sixfields) and with good negotiating it could turn out in our favour and start getting us a foot in the door a bit more.

In fairness, we're not a million miles away on this. Of course, this presupposes that SISU can hold a straightforward negotiation, and as I'm sure you've pointed out having a JR pointing at the council that may well impact Wasps isn't going to help.

My honest opinion mate, for what it's worth, is that Fisher genuinely believes that Wasps have signed a bad deal and is planning to sit tight to watch it unravel whilst spinning a line on the new stadium. If I'm right, I genuinely don't know if that's smart or crazy.

The one thing that's certain is that we're in a bad place whilst all this plays out.

 

[duffer]

That's OK but unlike you I think that negotiating now would be better than waiting. The reason I say that is that Wasps have yet to fully assess their investment and there must be some doubts as to its profitability so, "strike while the iron is hot", as it were.

There's logic in that, agreed, but I've got to say that I can see the other side of it too. I suppose if even the best deal we can hope for from Wasps is an unsustainable deal for the club, maybe the gamble on their failure is actually the only option.

Truthfully, as above, I think that SISU have already made their decision. They're going to sit tight and bank on the very long shot (imho) of getting something from a court case, and hope regardless that Wasps go tits up. Everything they're doing seems to point to that, again imho.

 

[chiefdave]

If they've done a U turn and now its OK to rent as long (from SISU of course!) as they get the revenues, that's fine. But don't pretend they've always led us to believe this is the case.

Pretty much all clubs will rent as it makes sense to have the stadium management separate to the club so I don't think we can really take SISU to task for suggesting that sort of setup. The key is what exactly we are paying and what we get in return. For example if they said £100K a year for the stadium lease meaning we get all revenues generated by the stadium we've got a good deal, on the other hand if it's £1m a year and limited matchday revenues we're even worse off.

 

[dongonzalos]

?

Why don't those who are so concerned ask Ann Lucas & CCC WHY they'd been negotiating with Wasps 6 months before the Sky Blues returned to the Ricoh?

(Because we had pissed off to Northampton leaving the Ricoh empty in an attempt to devalue ACL so we could buy it cheaper solely due to our actions )

Also why CCFC we'ren't offered the some or a similar deal to buy?

(Because we were suing the council and that in conjunction with the action above made the council not very trusting when it comes to do doing deals with SISU. I would guess that they may have lost Wasps as a potential buyer if they offered it to SISU to match Wasps offer. Also we have repeatedly said we would not do the deal Wasps did. )

Or why they totally refused to renegotiate the crazy £1:28 million rent but lured the club back naively for just £100,000 before the Wasps deal went through?

(They renegotiated and claim to have shook with SISU on it, only for it to be rejected. Why would the club consider itself to lured back to the Ricoh, surely if the deal was better than the Northampton deal. The club should put its own fans first for once and be happy to come back. We are and always have been 'building a new stadium since the council took the loan remember'. Surely it is better to be in Coventry whilst we do. )

Strikes me the majority are looking in the wrong direction!

(1 of the Jury thought Kenneth Noye was innocent after hearing all the evidence. The other 11 didn't. The judge goes with the majority for a reason. )

The club will not survive or be attractive to a prospective purchaser unless they (or the owners) own their own ground and have full access to all revenue streams 365 days a year.

(Which is why the ACL deal was invaluable yet we tried to get it for a pittanceand we screwed it up)

Ann Lucas and her cronies would block any move by CCFC to purchase land and build a stadium within the City boundaries, forcing the club to look elsewhere outside the City, WHY?

(If it was going to happen anyway they would want it in the boundaries )

I could go on but it just gets even more boring, never mind, the local elections are coming up and hopefully she'll get her just desert?????????

(You can't because you can never go deeper in a debate than the first line because you points never hold up to scrutiny)

 

[italiahorse]

Why on Earth shouldn't we get all of it?

Surely the question is why should we get all of it when we have done absolutely nothing to provide the infrastructure to provide it ?
We have to accept that the provider of the facility needs to have a cut.
Anything else is naive.

 

[RegTheDonk]

Pretty much all clubs will rent as it makes sense to have the stadium management separate to the club so I don't think we can really take SISU to task for suggesting that sort of setup. The key is what exactly we are paying and what we get in return. For example if they said £100K a year for the stadium lease meaning we get all revenues generated by the stadium we've got a good deal, on the other hand if it's £1m a year and limited matchday revenues we're even worse off.

I disagree with taking them to task Chief - we need to own our own stadium was the line they towed, otherwise there have been plenty of chances to cut a deal with ACL on a fairer rent and a cut of the profits. The "shook hands" agreement; ACL crapping themselves and offering reduced rent prior to Sixfields. All explorable options, but Joy wanted the whole cake and now all we've been left with is the empty sweet trolly.

Would love a £100K pa rent with all revenues generated by the stadium, yep that would be a great deal, but SISU would be out of their minds to give us that. It'd take 30 years to get their money back from building the thing.