Back to being the biggest club in Coventry? (8 Viewers)

[italiahorse]

Luckily not everyone has the backbone of a jelly fish like you. Imagine if everyone had your attitude, the world would be horrendous.

You also have no idea of the way forward and so you want a race to the bottom ?

 

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[SkyBlueZack]

The morality of the Wasps deal is wrong. You must agree? The injustice of it all annoys the life out of me. Do I lose sleep over it? No. Will I just forgive and get my black and yellow jacket out? Will I F***!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[italiahorse]

The morality of the Wasps deal is wrong. You must agree? The injustice of it all annoys the life out of me. Do I lose sleep over it? No. Will I just forgive and get my black and yellow jacket out? Will I F***!!!!!!!!!!!

The stadium was built for CCFC so yes it is wrong.
But if CCFC haven't got the clout to run it in D1 what should happen next ?
Particularly as the company running the stadium and owned by CCC and a charity is on borrowed time.

 

[stupot07]

You also have no idea of the way forward and so you want a race to the bottom ?

Is this your new saying? More rhetoric which means nothing. Only one club rents off a rugby club - Stockport County. Where are they?

We're in league one, we're not going to sink much lower. Just scaremongering.

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[SkyBlueZack]

You have zero evidence to prove CCFC could not run the stadium. As I mentioned previously, it is a bizarre claim considering the stadium only made profit because CCFC were there. You also stated the stadium is worth more with a team there. Predominantly a local football team because again as mentioned previously there is more money in football than rugby. People call each other for making statements without evidence which you keep doing regarding CCFC's ability to run the stadium. Wasps have been here 6 months and the attendances are already dwindling. Time will tell if they can run it. We may never know if CCFC can. We can only hope. I hope you are with me on that

 

[chiefdave]

The stadium with a team in is worth a lot more money. As Wasps knew.
I suspect Sisu thought they were the only team that could use the arena and could get it down to zero. Perhaps even the freehold with a few years in Northampton.

So if a team being in the stadium is what adds money surely the sale price to us should have been as low as the price to Wasps? Why do different rules apply to them?

CCFC should have been the only option unless CRFC wanted to play there, or something like Nuneaton getting promoted and needing a ground up to league standard. Wasps should not be playing in Coventry, its an embarrassment to the city that they are.

Do you think CCC offered us a 250 year lease, to all intents and purposes the freehold, for less than £6m?

You also have no idea of the way forward and so you want a race to the bottom ?

What we do know, and has been confirmed by independent football finance experts in the CT and on CWR is that while we rent off Wasps we can't compete above our current level. So either we accept that, at best, we will be a Championship / L1 yoyo club or we look for another option.

In reality there's 2 likely options, either a new stadium for which we've yet to see a viable business plan or hope that at some point we get ownership of the Ricoh. The chance of that may be slight but the only way it will happen is Wasps failing. Our fans attending their games will not help.

But if CCFC haven't got the clout to run it in D1 what should happen next ?

You've mentioned this a couple of times recently as if it is fact. What are you basing it on?

There is every chance more people will attend the Ricoh to watch CCFC this season than will attend to watch Wasps so it can't be down to attendances in L1.

So are you saying Wasps are better at running stadiums than SISU? What evidence is there to back that up?

 

[skybluetony176]

Belfast and Glasgow are the obvious ones.

If franchising is the precedent, this is what happens. You can just sneer and say it won't, but the evidence is that once teams move and franchising is accepted, they become less tied to place.

Ignore that, say it'll never happen, and you repeat the mistakes that said SISU were fine, who cares we're owned by profit oriented investment funds with a reputation for ruthlessness.

What available stadium's are there in Glasgow and Belfast then? I could see Wasps being relocated possibly working in either but not CCFC, especially Glasgow. When I say working I mean by that supported by the new local community not the community they'd be leaving.

Besides I'd be surprised if the FL & FA would sanction another franchise in the English game and certainly not outside of England. The idea of franchising Wimbledon to Dublin was suggested long before MK was settled on, long before Winkleman turned up, in fact I think it was in Sam Haman's day's in charge and it was categorically dismissed out of hand.

Why people are trying to bluff people into thinking that there are possibilities is beyond me.

The circumstances around the Ricoh and the fact that it was available made it a unique opportunity for someone. The chances of a council building a stadium for a football club again are slim given our case, Northampton's case, Hulls case and Swansea's case, especially as the EU have got involved in Swansea regarding illegal state aid. And the chances of another club's owners deliberately vacating a stadium built for them in an ill fated, ill advised attempt to wrestle control of that stadium will never happen again given how catastrophically it failed. Even Wasps were in a unique position, the truth is that they are a breakaway club from a club that still exists, they were already operating a good distance away from where they started and the truth is that the majority of the world of Rugby Union unlike the football world really couldn't give a flying one about franchising. Wasps wete franchised and pretty much no one battered an eyelid from the governing body to grass route supporters. I'm genuinely yet to meet an out and out Rugby fan who cares one bit that Wasps are now in Coventry. In fact just the opposite, most are delighted as they can go and easily watch premiership Rugby on their doorstep at a fraction of the cost of watching saints or tigers and tickets are easier to get hold of.

 

[Grendel]

What available stadium's are there in Glasgow and Belfast then? I could see Wasps being relocated possibly working in either but not CCFC, especially Glasgow. When I say working I mean by that supported by the new local community not the community they'd be leaving.

Besides I'd be surprised if the FL & FA would sanction another franchise in the English game and certainly not outside of England. The idea of franchising Wimbledon to Dublin was suggested long before MK was settled on, long before Winkleman turned up, in fact I think it was in Sam Haman's day's in charge and it was categorically dismissed out of hand.

Why people are trying to bluff people into thinking that there are possibilities is beyond me.

The circumstances around the Ricoh and the fact that it was available made it a unique opportunity for someone. The chances of a council building a stadium for a football club again are slim given our case, Northampton's case, Hulls case and Swansea's case, especially as the EU have got involved in Swansea regarding illegal state aid. And the chances of another club's owners deliberately vacating a stadium built for them in an ill fated, ill advised attempt to wrestle control of that stadium will never happen again given how catastrophically it failed. Even Wasps were in a unique position, the truth is that they are a breakaway club from a club that still exists, they were already operating a good distance away from where they started and the truth is that the majority of the world of Rugby Union unlike the football world really couldn't give a flying one about franchising. Wasps wete franchised and pretty much no one battered an eyelid from the governing body to grass route supporters. I'm genuinely yet to meet an out and out Rugby fan who cares one bit that Wasps are now in Coventry. In fact just the opposite, most are delighted as they can go and easily watch premiership Rugby on their doorstep at a fraction of the cost of watching saints or tigers and tickets are easier to get hold of.

Whatever happened to that "illegal" state aid case? I know you love to mention it. It was two years ago wasn't it? What penalties were imposed?

As for fraction of the cost - well it's no cost unless they are like Italia and actually pay. Tickets also are now very easy to get hold of.

 

[Jack Griffin]

A lot of wishful thinking & accusations of immorality going around, but it doesn't alter the situation one iota.

Zack, tell me what do you think CCFC's strategy should be?

 

[chiefdave]

What available stadium's are there in Glasgow and Belfast then?

East Dumbartonshire Council are currently in the planning stages for a new stadium in Glasgow. South Lanarkshire Council is also looking to build on in East Kilbride. SFA's contact at Hampden Park expires in 2020 and there has been rumours they aren't going to renew. It's also not beyond the realms of possibility that further trouble for Rangers could see Ibrox becoming available.

The Irish public money is being used for major redevelopment at Ravenhill, Casement and Windsor Park.

I could see Wasps being relocated possibly working in either but not CCFC, especially Glasgow. When I say working I mean by that supported by the new local community not the community they'd be leaving.

Besides I'd be surprised if the FL & FA would sanction another franchise in the English game and certainly not outside of England. The idea of franchising Wimbledon to Dublin was suggested long before MK was settled on, long before Winkleman turned up, in fact I think it was in Sam Haman's day's in charge and it was categorically dismissed out of hand.

Wouldn't that be a cause for concern? Wasps owners have shown they are happy to move, if a move suits Wasps but doesn't suit, or isn't permitted, for us who knows what might happen.

The simple fact is nobody knows what will happen in the future. If you go back 30 years and told someone what state football would be in, or for that matter rugby, they would think you were mad and would tell you there was no chance.

 

[chiefdave]

Zack, tell me what do you think CCFC's strategy should be?

Can't answer for Zack but IMHO all options need to be explored fully. We need to see how various options stack up against each other in the short, medium and long term. Than an educated decision can be made as to the best course of action, even if it is something we can not immediately pursue.

If it turns out that our best option is to stay at the Ricoh and as has been previously stated we can't be competitive above L1 level we would have to accept that. What I won't accept is blindly stating its the only option and some sort of hope for the best plan of action.

 

[Sick Boy]

I'm genuinely yet to meet an out and out Rugby fan who cares one bit that Wasps are now in Coventry. In fact just the opposite, most are delighted as they can go and easily watch premiership Rugby on their doorstep at a fraction of the cost of watching saints or tigers and tickets are easier to get hold of.

I work with two ex-wasps fans (proper fans) who say their club is dead to them. Could well have been ccfc fans, that's why the hypocrisy demonstrated on this forum is absurd.

 

[skybluetony176]

East Dumbartonshire Council are currently in the planning stages for a new stadium in Glasgow. South Lanarkshire Council is also looking to build on in East Kilbride. SFA's contact at Hampden Park expires in 2020 and there has been rumours they aren't going to renew. It's also not beyond the realms of possibility that further trouble for Rangers could see Ibrox becoming available.

The Irish public money is being used for major redevelopment at Ravenhill, Casement and Windsor Park.





Wouldn't that be a cause for concern? Wasps owners have shown they are happy to move, if a move suits Wasps but doesn't suit, or isn't permitted, for us who knows what might happen.

The simple fact is nobody knows what will happen in the future. If you go back 30 years and told someone what state football would be in, or for that matter rugby, they would think you were mad and would tell you there was no chance.

So are they building them in the hope of enticing English sporting clubs to franchising there or are they part of a bigger long term plan with a predetermined purpose? What's the specs? Is it comparable or better than the Ricoh?

Keep clutching Dave.

 

[skybluetony176]

I work with two ex-wasps fans (proper fans) who say their club is dead to them. Could well have been ccfc fans, that's why the hypocrisy demonstrated on this forum is absurd.

Of course you do.

 

[chiefdave]

So are they building them in the hope of enticing English sporting clubs to franchising there or are they part of a bigger long term plan with a predetermined purpose? What's the specs? Is it comparable or better than the Ricoh?

Keep clutching Dave.

I'm not clutching. You have claimed in this thread there is zero possibility of Wasps not honouring their agreement to play in the city which lasts for 250 years. You validated this point by stating no public money was being spent on stadiums yet I've shown you several, in cities it was suggested on this thread Wasps could be successful.

The point, which you either can't understand or are choosing to ignore, is that it is absolutely impossible for you, me or anyone else to be certain what will happen in the future.

 

[chiefdave]

Of course you do.

You really think no Wasps fans were against the move? Did you even look at their forum when they move was announced (and before they started banning anyone who objected). Plenty of people saying they would never go again. Of course if Wasps were to release figures showing us that 100% of season ticket holders from Wycombe have renewed you might have some evidence to support your opinion.

 

[italiahorse]

Is this your new saying? More rhetoric which means nothing. Only one club rents off a rugby club - Stockport County. Where are they?

We're in league one, we're not going to sink much lower. Just scaremongering.

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No it means that people want Wasps to fail because CCFC has failed.
We can't have it so neither can you, if you like.
Understand the problem you mentioned above but Wasps failure is not the answer.

 

[italiahorse]

Whatever happened to that "illegal" state aid case? I know you love to mention it. It was two years ago wasn't it? What penalties were imposed?

As for fraction of the cost - well it's no cost unless they are like Italia and actually pay. Tickets also are now very easy to get hold of.

Of course they are ?

 

[chiefdave]

Understand the problem you mentioned above but Wasps failure is not the answer.

Why? If Wasps fail, and either cease to exist or move elsewhere, there will be an empty stadium in Coventry. Would that not be a good position for the football and whoever its owner at the time is to find themselves in?

 

[italiahorse]

You really think no Wasps fans were against the move? Did you even look at their forum when they move was announced (and before they started banning anyone who objected). Plenty of people saying they would never go again. Of course if Wasps were to release figures showing us that 100% of season ticket holders from Wycombe have renewed you might have some evidence to support your opinion.

They banned Grendel !!!!
The response was very tepid as you know if you actually read the boards.

 

[italiahorse]

Why? If Wasps fail, and either cease to exist or move elsewhere, there will be an empty stadium in Coventry. Would that not be a good position for the football and whoever its owner at the time is to find themselves in?

What new owner? Sisu have tied up there debt in CCFC for any new owner
Get real.

 

[chiefdave]

What new owner? Sisu have tied up there debt in CCFC for any new owner
Get real.

You think SISU are going to be here forever? You think at some point in the 250 years of the Ricoh lease we won't be taken over by someone else?

 

[italiahorse]

You think SISU are going to be here forever? You think at some point in the 250 years of the Ricoh lease we won't be taken over by someone else?

No I'm saying that it is highly unlikely now that Sisu have tied up the debt in the club if sold.
If I read it right I guess we have £2M assets and £45M of debt. No one is going to bid £47M.
I guess your plan is for Wasps to fail, ACL to be forced into administration, CCC to forfeit the freehold, Sisu to buy it, Sisu to package up the club and the Ricoh and sell it as a package to clear the debt ?
Or, what is your vision ?

 

[stupot07]

No it means that people want Wasps to fail because CCFC has failed.
We can't have it so neither can you, if you like.
Understand the problem you mentioned above but Wasps failure is not the answer.

There are numerous reasons people want wasps to fail.
- they bought the stadium that was purpose built for us
- them buying the stadium now means we will NEVER own the stadium
- them moving 90 miles sets a horrible precedent of franchising and moving for financial gain
- them moving 90 miles puts them in direct competition for paying customers for both us and ccfc
- we were against ccfc moving to Northampton, the acceptance of wasps is hypocritical and therefore a lot of us don't want it to succeed.
- the only chance we have of buying a % or even the whole of ACL is by them failing (you agreed with this earlier in the thread and now are doing a U-turn
- the more they rebrand the stadium the less it feels like home, so we want them to fail.
- the more they succeed, become embedded in the community, the larger the crowds the more our potential fan base will be limited - most people can't afford to attend both:
- the fact that when moving Nick Eastwood admitted they would would lose around 70% of their existing (Wycombe/London) fan base in 3 years, how is that right? So we want it to fail so it doesn't encourage others to treat their fan base with such distain.
- them being here places a glass ceiling above Coventry's historic sports clubs.
- and on, and on.

It's absolutely nothing to do with "we can't have it so we don't want wasps to have it", they shouldn't be here full stop.

Why would any Coventry fan want them to succeed, get 25-30k week in week out, become the biggest and premier sports club in Coventry? Because is that does happen, we're we'll and truly fucked.

Well done top wumming.


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[Nick]

Why would any Coventry fan want them to succeed, get 25-30k week in week out, become the biggest and premier club in Coventry? Because is that does happen, we're we'll and truly fucked.

 

[Specs WT-R75]

Well that was a can of worms opened!

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

 

[skybluetony176]

I'm not clutching. You have claimed in this thread there is zero possibility of Wasps not honouring their agreement to play in the city which lasts for 250 years. You validated this point by stating no public money was being spent on stadiums yet I've shown you several, in cities it was suggested on this thread Wasps could be successful.

The point, which you either can't understand or are choosing to ignore, is that it is absolutely impossible for you, me or anyone else to be certain what will happen in the future.

So are these stadium's being built as part of a predetermined plan for something or are they being built to be left empty in the hope of enticing a sports team into franchising there? What's the spec on these stadiums? Are they going to be equal to or better than The Ricoh so that they make more financial sense than the Ricoh on paper? They would have to be wouldn't they? In your scenario you're peddling they would move us if they owned us if there's a financial gain. Do these new stadium you talk about offer that prospect? Yes or no? Or is it still just you clutching at straws to try and sell a make believe, never going to happen story. I'm sure Grendull and sickboy will buy it.

 

[skybluetony176]

You really think no Wasps fans were against the move? Did you even look at their forum when they move was announced (and before they started banning anyone who objected). Plenty of people saying they would never go again. Of course if Wasps were to release figures showing us that 100% of season ticket holders from Wycombe have renewed you might have some evidence to support your opinion.

Oh I'm sure there were SOME. I remember one or two kicking up but I remember them also being largely ignored not just by the wider Rugby community but also there own fan base. I'm certainly not counting Sickboys imaginary friends in the count.

The truth is the Rugby community couldn't care less, in fact they seemed to embrace the idea on the whole if anything. I don't agree with what's happened but the people I expected to be bothered about it simply aren't.

 

[Nick]

Oh I'm sure there were SOME. I remember one or two kicking up but I remember them also being largely ignored not just by the wider Rugby community but also there own fan base. I'm certainly not counting Sickboys imaginary friends in the count.

The truth is the Rugby community couldn't care less, in fact they seemed to embrace the idea on the whole if anything. I don't agree with what's happened but the people I expected to be bothered about it simply aren't.

Also remember some of our fans who had been shouting fix football and dribbling about speaking to Wimbledon fans then saying they didn't give a shit about wasps fans because they had a great time.

Also remember some city fans being outraged at the move one week because they thought that would be the way to react, then being wasps fans of the month the next.

I agree, I expected others to be bothered because of their views about us but some do their best to defend wasps move but if we moved 2cm over the coventry boundary they would go ape shit.

 

[skybluetony176]

Also remember some of our fans who had been shouting fix football and dribbling about speaking to Wimbledon fans then saying they didn't give a shit about wasps fans because they had a great time.

Also remember some city fans being outraged at the move one week because they thought that would be the way to react, then being wasps fans of the month the next.

I agree, I expected others to be bothered because of their views about us but some do their best to defend wasps move but if we moved 2cm over the coventry boundary they would go ape shit.

And all the people who didn't give a shit about CCRFC when posters on here were substituting football for rugby by going to the butts and suggesting others should join them while CCFC were in Northampton suddenly giving a shit about CCFRC when Wasps turn up.

 

[skybluetony176]

I'm not clutching. You have claimed in this thread there is zero possibility of Wasps not honouring their agreement to play in the city which lasts for 250 years. You validated this point by stating no public money was being spent on stadiums yet I've shown you several, in cities it was suggested on this thread Wasps could be successful.

The point, which you either can't understand or are choosing to ignore, is that it is absolutely impossible for you, me or anyone else to be certain what will happen in the future.

You are a card Dave. I've looked at this proposed East Dumbarton proposal and unless you can show me otherwise it's just that. A proposal i.e. It's at about the same stage as SISU's proposal with RBC.

There's also bo talk as I can see of public money being involved, no mention of a joint venture with the local authority either. Its a. PROPOSAL from Glasgow Ladies FC and that's as far as it's got from what I can see.

Also Scotland may well be a hot bed for ladies football for all I know but I doubt it's going to be 32000 all seater stadium with the extra facilities that the Ricoh has and therefore the draw that's going to have enough potential to entice Wasps to up sticks, abandon the Ricoh taking their newly acquired football club with them.

So yes you are clutching at straws. I'm starting to get embarrassed for you.

 

[chiefdave]

So are these stadium's being built as part of a predetermined plan for something or are they being built to be left empty in the hope of enticing a sports team into franchising there? What's the spec on these stadiums? Are they going to be equal to or better than The Ricoh so that they make more financial sense than the Ricoh on paper? They would have to be wouldn't they? In your scenario you're peddling they would move us if they owned us if there's a financial gain. Do these new stadium you talk about offer that prospect? Yes or no? Or is it still just you clutching at straws to try and sell a make believe, never going to happen story. I'm sure Grendull and sickboy will buy it.

I'm not sure if you're just playing dumb or genuinely don't understand. The Ricoh wasn't build to be left empty until Wasps turned up was it? But situations change and that's what ended up happening. What you are asserting is that over the 250 year term on the Ricoh there is zero chance of a single stadium in the UK being available to Wasps. What about if we have another Commenwealth Games or Olympics? All I have said is if a better option presents itself to Wasps there is nothing to suggest they wouldn't move again.

In my scenario, which isn't really my scenario just a possibility, where have I said Wasps would move CCFC? Again it could happen or they might cast us aside. Wasps primary concern is Wasps and their own financial interests. If they became owners of CCFC and then later decided to move Wasps who is to say they would take us with them.

I am not saying it will happen or even that it is likely to happen just that it is a possibility. I don't see how you can rule that out. Things change and the situation years, decades or even centuries down the line may be very different to the one at present.

 

[chiefdave]

No I'm saying that it is highly unlikely now that Sisu have tied up the debt in the club if sold.
If I read it right I guess we have £2M assets and £45M of debt. No one is going to bid £47M.

Of course no one will bid that but I would doubt even SISU are expecting to get that back. That's not really how takeovers work is it? Did SISU pay back every penny of debt to the likes of Robinson when they took over the club?

I guess your plan is for Wasps to fail, ACL to be forced into administration, CCC to forfeit the freehold, Sisu to buy it, Sisu to package up the club and the Ricoh and sell it as a package to clear the debt ?

I would imagine should Wasps fail then the stadium, or at least ACL, will be available for sale in one form or another. It may be that it is purchased directly from Wasps, it may be that it reverts to CCC and they conduct a sale process. I suspect a package of club and stadium would be much more attractive to any potential new owner.

Or, what is your vision ?

If by vision you mean what would I do if I was in charge then it is the same as I have stated before.

The club should look into every available option and how each option will impact the club over the short, medium and long term. Armed with that information an educated desicion can be made.

If it is best to build a new stadium we should pursue that option, even if it cannot be done at present. If the best option is to stay at the Ricoh then pursue that option. As has been stated before staying at the Ricoh under Wasps limits the level at which we can be competitive so if that turns out to be the best option we either accept those limitations or hope and pray that at some point things go wrong for Wasps and we get a chance to own the stadium.

One thing is for certain, our fans attending Wasps games and adding to their revenues won't help our situation.

 

[skybluetony176]

I'm not sure if you're just playing dumb or genuinely don't understand. The Ricoh wasn't build to be left empty until Wasps turned up was it? But situations change and that's what ended up happening. What you are asserting is that over the 250 year term on the Ricoh there is zero chance of a single stadium in the UK being available to Wasps. What about if we have another Commenwealth Games or Olympics? All I have said is if a better option presents itself to Wasps there is nothing to suggest they wouldn't move again.

In my scenario, which isn't really my scenario just a possibility, where have I said Wasps would move CCFC? Again it could happen or they might cast us aside. Wasps primary concern is Wasps and their own financial interests. If they became owners of CCFC and then later decided to move Wasps who is to say they would take us with them.

I am not saying it will happen or even that it is likely to happen just that it is a possibility. I don't see how you can rule that out. Things change and the situation years, decades or even centuries down the line may be very different to the one at present.

I'll leave the playing Dumb to you. When Wasps starting showing a real interest in the Ricoh it was empty and available. So what you're suggesting is with your "example" is that Glasgow ladies will have the stadium built for them by the local authorities and then vacate it and move 35miles away in an ill fated, ill advised attempt to wrestle controll of the stadium Wasps will then go, Hey this stadium in Glasgow is available and as it was built for a ladies team it has much more potential for income than staying at the Ricoh let's up sticks and clear off. Never going to happen is it.

You're suggesting it's a posibility. How? Several things would have to happen. wasps would have to buy CCFC, a stadium somewhere else in the country would have to become available, the stadium would have to be a larger capacity than the Ricoh for it to have more potential, it would have to have more seperate income streams than the Ricoh so more than a Hotel, conference facilities, casino, exhibition hall etc for it to offer more potential, the move would have to be sanctioned by the relevent governing bodies of both sports not only in the country they're leaving but also the country they're arriving in as you're suggesting Scotland for it to happen and each thing is even more unlikely that the one before it.

You're clutching at straws for even suggesting it. There's no logical reason for even suggesting it and quite frankly it's a stupid suggestion. Not only that what ever chance you may think there is of CCFC moving to Hampden Park or wherever if Wasps took us over there is clearly an even greater chance of SISU doing that as unlike Wasps they don't have a 250year lease on a 32000 seater stadium and that's something you would never allude to. Funny that