Back to being the biggest club in Coventry? (18 Viewers)

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italiahorse

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
Moff said:
Sadly my daughter went yesterday, although I didnt buy the ticket, she went with friends. She is only 11 so is at an age where she will give an honest unbiased opinion.

I was thankful that she didnt really enjoy it (apart from being with her friends) She said it was quiet, no atmosphere and its not as interesting or entertaining as the football. I know a few younger supporters who have echoed this opinion. I was proud that she would rather watch CCFC everytime, and on the Rugby front much prefers the lively, full and more friendly atmosphere at Franklins Gardens (The Saints)

I am no fan of Wasps but didnt want to influence her judgement but was pleased with what she said.

Whilst I think Wasps may have won some local fans round at present, I think they have misjudged the appeal that they thought they would have in the locality. Not only are their attendances dropping at present but they appear to have made little or no impression on many local youngsters who will not be their fans of the future.

I wonder where they think their future fans will come from, as at present it dosnt look very rosy.
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I'd probably agree with that.
Definitely not as exciting as football.
It seems more of a technical team game and unlike football you struggle to understand what is going on at times. I have to look to the screen to get the detail in the scrum etc.
I always thought it was a playing game but with watching my daughter play (and Wasps) I'm starting to appreciate the skills of the teamwork.
Particular in the amateur game you can see that anybody can play the game from the nippy fit type to the large drinking type.
I would even suspect that some of the larger players never actually touch the ball.

As for youngsters not engaging I would disagree. I do think they like the occasion rather than the game at that age. There definitely more kids attending rugby than football and from my experience it is certainly more of a family atmosphere at the Wasps matches.

I think there is room for both Wasps and a successful CCFC and I'm almost certain that fans will not be switching from football to rugby this season.
 
S

shy_tall_knight

Well-Known Member
The next 2 fixtures will be a good indication of how well WASPS are doing regarding crowd appeal. They have Bath in the Europeans next week and Saracens in the league on the Sunay after Christmas. I expect the saracens game to get the bigger crowd but doubt it will go above 20,000. I think us playing on the 26th we may take away some of the floating fans. Ground is too big for them and the novelty is less than 12 months old.
 
Moff

Moff

Well-Known Member
italiahorse said:
I'd probably agree with that.
Definitely not as exciting as football.
It seems more of a technical team game and unlike football you struggle to understand what is going on at times. I have to look to the screen to get the detail in the scrum etc.
I always thought it was a playing game but with watching my daughter play (and Wasps) I'm starting to appreciate the skills of the teamwork.
Particular in the amateur game you can see that anybody can play the game from the nippy fit type to the large drinking type.
I would even suspect that some of the larger players never actually touch the ball.

As for youngsters not engaging I would disagree. I do think they like the occasion rather than the game at that age. There definitely more kids attending rugby than football and from my experience it is certainly more of a family atmosphere at the Wasps matches.

I think there is room for both Wasps and a successful CCFC and I'm almost certain that fans will not be switching from football to rugby this season.
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Fair points. re the kids, I can only comment on what I have been told, and from other kids we have spoken to, but I havent been so take on board your assessment.

I am glad my daughter prefers football! Re the Saints I think she enjoyed it more as the atmosphere was more vocal and the ground tighter packed with a near full house, in what is a smaller stadium. I think we have seen both in the football and it appears in the Rugby that a half empty Ricoh can be soulless at times.

I do suspect that Wasps attendances will continue to fall and do wonder where there future finnaces will come form, as I dont think the stadium is the cash cow they thought it was. I would think a smaller stadium in London is better suited to their needs, as i dont really think the Coventry public is or will really buy into the brand.
 
Grendel

Grendel

Well-Known Member
shy_tall_knight said:
The next 2 fixtures will be a good indication of how well WASPS are doing regarding crowd appeal. They have Bath in the Europeans next week and Saracens in the league on the Sunay after Christmas. I expect the saracens game to get the bigger crowd but doubt it will go above 20,000. I think us playing on the 26th we may take away some of the floating fans. Ground is too big for them and the novelty is less than 12 months old.
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Given the deal for these games is but one get one free they are not real indicators of true demand.

Wasps it is now clear will only attract big crowds if it's swelled by away support.

In two years 6,000 will be the average. As I said all along free ticket promotions is a marketing disaster. It devalues the brand and makes it feel the product is inferior. Anyone who works in marketing will realise that their strategy since they arrived has been one big cluster fuck.

They will have to make the Arena work or they will fold.

I would wish them look but that would be a lie.

As I say the marketing strategy is a disaster. The PR though is incredible. If the local media stopped its sycophantic approach they'd be gone by the end of the season
 
SkyBlue_Bear83

SkyBlue_Bear83

Well-Known Member
If in two or three years time if Wasps hit a bad spell, maybe miss out on Europe for a couple of season attendances will be down to 5/6k. The proper Wasps fans who followed them to the Ricoh will eventually lose the motivation to go every week and the local band wagoners will find something else to do and abandon ship at the first sign of difficulty.
 
italiahorse

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
CCFC said:
If in two or three years time if Wasps hit a bad spell, maybe miss out on Europe for a couple of season attendances will be down to 5/6k. The proper Wasps fans who followed them to the Ricoh will eventually lose the motivation to go every week and the local band wagoners will find something else to do and abandon ship at the first sign of difficulty.
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As I've just said. They are not reliant on just attendances the Ricoh portfolio will spread the risk.
We need to have a plan immediately for what we are going to be doing next season and then work on one for the next 10 years.
 
Grendel

Grendel

Well-Known Member
italiahorse said:
Isn't that the whole idea ?
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Given they have proved as incompetent as sisu and the council so far they have zero chance in making it work.

Certainly without significant revenue from a major naming rights sponsor even they admit they will struggle to meet the bond payments.

So far they have looked like incompetent clowns. Failure is around the corner.
 
Grendel

Grendel

Well-Known Member
italiahorse said:
No business will invest in a Sisu venture. Their name is poison..
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Wasps have a history of insolvency and unpaid creditors as well as an inability to stay in one place too long.

Has the new sponsor been announced yet?
 
SkyBlue_Bear83

SkyBlue_Bear83

Well-Known Member
italiahorse said:
As I've just said. They are not reliant on just attendances the Ricoh portfolio will spread the risk.
We need to have a plan immediately for what we are going to be doing next season and then work on one for the next 10 years.
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Surely the sporting side need to somewhat successful for the business side to also be successful.

For a moment just say hypothetically CCFC leave the Ricoh in the next 5 years, Wasps have 5k attendances, not in Europe and bottom half of the premiership. Naming rights and stadium sponsorship will plummet just for a start.
 
italiahorse

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
Grendel said:
Given they have proved as incompetent as sisu and the council so far they have zero chance in making it work.

Certainly without significant revenue from a major naming rights sponsor even they admit they will struggle to meet the bond payments.

So far they have looked like incompetent clowns. Failure is around the corner.
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Your record on predictions is as good as the lookout on the Titanics.
 
Grendel

Grendel

Well-Known Member
italiahorse said:
Your record on predictions is as good as the lookout on the Titanics.
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Really? I said gates would crash this year - they are down 40% - the Coventry public are not engaging.

You are now the only person on this forum that supports wasps.

What does that say about you?
 
chiefdave

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
CCFC said:
Surely the sporting side need to somewhat successful for the business side to also be successful.

For a moment just say hypothetically CCFC leave the Ricoh in the next 5 years, Wasps have 5k attendances, not in Europe and bottom half of the premiership. Naming rights and stadium sponsorship will plummet just for a start.
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Its not beyond the realms of possibility that it doesn't work out for Wasps.

Lets look at what we know. In the last available accounts, which cover 2013 / 14. Wasps lost £4m and ACL £.4m.

Since then Wasps have increased their debt via the bond scheme on which they have to pay interest and eventually repay the capital. That's £2.1m a year.

So just to hit break even the group of companies needs a turnaround in the region of £6.5m.

You can see from the 3 games so far this season that attendances are dropping. And of course you have to account for the freebies and when they moved here they made a big play to existing supporters that tickets at the Ricoh were cheaper than tickets at High Wycombe so how much, if at all, total ticket revenues have increased is debateable.

Bath: 5,316 > 7,397 (at High Wycombe) > 10,093
Gloucester: 38,294 > 14,056 > 11,649
Exeter: 5,356 > 16,712 > 10,304

Of course they have extra revenue streams but also extra costs. Are the F&B, car parking and hospitality at a handful of rugby games going to push ACL into profit to the point they can meet the interest payments and cover Wasps losses?
 
italiahorse

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
chiefdave said:
Its not beyond the realms of possibility that it doesn't work out for Wasps.

Lets look at what we know. In the last available accounts, which cover 2013 / 14. Wasps lost £4m and ACL £.4m.

Since then Wasps have increased their debt via the bond scheme on which they have to pay interest and eventually repay the capital. That's £2.1m a year.

So just to hit break even the group of companies needs a turnaround in the region of £6.5m.

You can see from the 3 games so far this season that attendances are dropping. And of course you have to account for the freebies and when they moved here they made a big play to existing supporters that tickets at the Ricoh were cheaper than tickets at High Wycombe so how much, if at all, total ticket revenues have increased is debateable.

Bath: 5,316 > 7,397 (at High Wycombe) > 10,093
Gloucester: 38,294 > 14,056 > 11,649
Exeter: 5,356 > 16,712 > 10,304

Of course they have extra revenue streams but also extra costs. Are the F&B, car parking and hospitality at a handful of rugby games going to push ACL into profit to the point they can meet the interest payments and cover Wasps losses?
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Lets hope so for our sake. ;)
No plan for next season, no new stadium plan, chairman's statement we can't afford the Ricoh.
I want to know what we will do if wasps go bust and can't continue to support us with £100K rent and access to some incomes. :confused:



NOTE: I don't believe this is the case but what if it happens to be the right ??
 
lordsummerisle

lordsummerisle

Well-Known Member
italiahorse said:
Lets hope so for our sake. ;)
No plan for next season, no new stadium plan, chairman's statement we can't afford the Ricoh.
I want to know what we will do if wasps go bust and can't continue to support us with £100K rent and access to some incomes. :confused:



NOTE: I don't believe this is the case but what if it happens to be the right ??
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If Waps go bust we'd hopefully pick up the remainder of the lease for a song.

Isn't it more the case of us continuing to support Wasps with £100k rent and access to most incomes anyway?

Admittedly not as much as we supported the council with around £1.5million per year and access to all incomes.
 
skybluetony176

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
lordsummerisle said:
If Waps go bust we'd hopefully pick up the remainder of the lease for a song.

Isn't it more the case of us continuing to support Wasps with £100k rent and access to most incomes anyway?

Admittedly not as much as we supported the council with around £1.5million per year and access to all incomes.
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Doesn't the lease revert back to CCC in them circumstances?
 
skybluetony176

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
stupot07 said:
Probably not, unless ACL gets liquidated.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors :)
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I thought I'd read somewhere that in the event of ACL going bump the lease reverts back to the freeholder, namely CCC. Got a feeling it may have been part of SISU's argument in the JR as CCC didn't need to bail out ACL as the lease would have gone back to them so the taxpayer wouldn't have lost out if ACL had have gone bump because they'd once again have a lease available to sell.

Could be wrong. As I say I thought I read it somewhere. Don't recall where or when so it is possible that I imagined it ;)
 
stupot07

stupot07

Well-Known Member
skybluetony176 said:
I thought I'd read somewhere that in the event of ACL going bump the lease reverts back to the freeholder, namely CCC. Got a feeling it may have been part of SISU's argument in the JR as CCC didn't need to bail out ACL as the lease would have gone back to them so the taxpayer wouldn't have lost out if ACL had have gone bump because they'd once again have a lease available to sell.

Could be wrong. As I say I thought I read it somewhere. Don't recall where or when so it is possible that I imagined it ;)
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Yeah if ACL goes bump, but not if wasps go bump. ACL would be a saleable asset out or administration....surely? If not how can the lease be used as security of it just reverts back to the council if it goes tits up?

Yes but that is the premise of sisu's argument - if try's have let ACL go bust the lease would have reverted back to the council and they could have sold it unencumbered for more than wasps paid for it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors :)
 
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chiefdave

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
skybluetony176 said:
I thought I'd read somewhere that in the event of ACL going bump the lease reverts back to the freeholder, namely CCC. Got a feeling it may have been part of SISU's argument in the JR as CCC didn't need to bail out ACL as the lease would have gone back to them so the taxpayer wouldn't have lost out if ACL had have gone bump because they'd once again have a lease available to sell.

Could be wrong. As I say I thought I read it somewhere. Don't recall where or when so it is possible that I imagined it ;)
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It was like that but didn't the Wasps share prospectus state that it didn't revert to the council just reverts to 50 years rather than 250 or something like that.
 
chiefdave

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
chiefdave said:
It was like that but didn't the Wasps share prospectus state that it didn't revert to the council just reverts to 50 years rather than 250 or something like that.
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Here you go

Risks relating the head lease of the Arena granted to ACL2006

Under the terms of the head lease granted by Coventry City Council (“CCC”) to Arena Coventry (2006)Limited (“ACL2006”) in respect of the Arena (the “Head Lease”), CCC have reserved the right to forfeit theHead Lease if ACL2006 becomes insolvent. Insolvency in this scenario means a situation where ACL2006becomes unable to pay its debts, has a receiver/administrator/provisional liquidator appointed over its assets,has assets seized in order to pay debts of ACL2006 or has a winding-up order made against it. The effect offorfeiture would be that the 250 year Head Lease would fall away and that ACL would then become the tenantof CCC at the Arena for the remaining 38 years of its existing lease. However, the right of CCC to claimforfeiture of the Head Lease is not an automatic right. If CCC made a claim for such forfeiture, this could becontested by ACL2006, any third party that held security over ACL2006 and any subtenants of ACL2006 bymaking application to a court in England. Further, if an administrator was to be appointed over the assets ofACL2006, then CCC would not be able to forfeit the Head Lease without the consent of the appointedadministrator or with the leave of the courts.

If forfeiture was to take place prior to maturity of the Bonds, then U.S. Bank Trustees Limited, the entity thatwill hold the security on behalf of Bondholders, may not be in a position to assign the Head Lease for value inthe event CCC forfeited the lease as described in the preceding paragraph. This may have an impact on theBondholders’ ability to receive full repayment of their investment in the Bonds on the occurrence of such aninsolvency event.
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