Ben Sheaf future (2 Viewers)

[Terry_dactyl]

Sheaf is a Coventry player as far as I'm concerned. I think he'll come good

Only way Walsh signs is if we cash in on Gus or don't sign James.

Or let Kelly go?

 

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[Marty]

Check the stats and get back to me.

Have you got a link?

First link from google doesn't have him in the top 10 of any matrix. Can't seem to filter (https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/2...PlayerStatistics/England-League-One-2019-2020)

Not a massive fan of stats personally, they don't tell the whole story, can get a much better feel for a player by just watching them.

 

[harvey098]

Check the stats and get back to me.

Which stats mate? I can only find 1 goal and 2 assists all season?

I know his game isn’t about goals and assists but what stats do you want me to check?

 

[Marty]

Which stats mate? I can only find 1 goal and 2 assists all season?

I know his game isn’t about goals and assists but what stats do you want me to check?

What I've seen from the stats, he wasn't even the best peforming Doncaster midfielder, Sheaf only in the top 10 of players once and that's for Average passes a game (where hes 3rd (55.6)), behind Whiteman (Doncaster (63)) & Rose (CCFC (58.1)). Even 40 year old James Coppinger out performs him on the stats.

 

[skyblueelephant76]

What I've seen from the stats, he wasn't even the best peforming Doncaster midfielder, Sheaf only in the top 10 of players once and that's for Average passes a game (where hes 3rd (55.6)), behind Whiteman (Doncaster (63)) & Rose (CCFC (58.1)). Even 40 year old James Coppinger out performs him on the stats.

Sheaf was highlighted as one of the best midfielders in League one under the age of 25 based on stats

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[mrtrench]

As to his future, this now seems obvious - the injury wasn't serious and I believe we are obliged to sign him.

I don't know that Robings will be happy about that - spending that kind of money you'd expect to get a player who appears every week - and he's been used quite sparingly even when not injured.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

As to his future, this now seems obvious - the injury wasn't serious and I believe we are obliged to sign him.

I don't know that Robings will be happy about that - spending that kind of money you'd expect to get a player who appears every week - and he's been used quite sparingly even when not injured.

Really? How would you know if he was fit to start?

 

[larry_david]

Looked half decent yesterday when he came on. I'm in two minds about sheaf tbh. I'm aware players take time to adapt to this level (hyam for example) but also sheaf didn't really do much for me. Think he had a two game spell where he looked like he was gonna start bossing it and then he disappeared

 

[mrtrench]

Really? How would you know if he was fit to start?

I guessed because he was on the bench.

 

[Marty]

Sheaf was highlighted as one of the best midfielders in League one under the age of 25 based on stats

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You just need to look at some of the other names on that list to show why you shouldn't judge players on stats alone. Yes, they tell you how many passes a player makes and how accurate they are, but they don't tell you that they're playing a team parking the bus and sat in their own 18 yard box, and all of those passes were no more then 10 yards under no pressure.

Even the key passes stat is misleading, definition i've found :- A key pass is a pass by a player that allows his teammate to have an attempt on goal. However, his teammate failed to score. As such, a key pass is awarded to the player, instead of an assist.

You passing to a team mate who shoots from 60 yards or from a tight angle, Where there's little to no chance of scoring still count towards that stat.

 

[Terry_dactyl]

I’m happy for him to sign. A good footballer who held his own in the championship and is going to get better.
For me the only issue is potential overcrowding in midfield as I’d love to see us sign James and Walsh also. If that happens it’s a nice headache to have.

 

[skybluepm2]

Wouldn’t lose any sleep if he didn’t sign. We’ve not missed him since being injured. If it is £750k we are parting ways with, I’d imagine that’s a large part of (assumedly) next seasons budget. Is he going to get in ahead of Kelly and/or James. Not regularly enough in my opinion. That’s also of the assumption that Kelly signs a new deal and we get James (who is probably on astronomical wages in comparison to what we currently pay).

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

You just need to look at some of the other names on that list to show why you shouldn't judge players on stats alone. Yes, they tell you how many passes a player makes and how accurate they are, but they don't tell you that they're playing a team parking the bus and sat in their own 18 yard box, and all of those passes were no more then 10 yards under no pressure.

Even the key passes stat is misleading, definition i've found :- A key pass is a pass by a player that allows his teammate to have an attempt on goal. However, his teammate failed to score. As such, a key pass is awarded to the player, instead of an assist.

You passing to a team mate who shoots from 60 yards or from a tight angle, Where there's little to no chance of scoring still count towards that stat.

I love non data analysts talking about gut feeling trumping statistics or seeing players in person. It means we can keep punching above our weight by using statistics wisely

Watch money ball. Ask shmmee. Using data analytics will improve our chances of improving everything. Sure rubbish data rubbish outcome. Good data means good outcome

So should you have just assists or both assists and chances as the person passing the ball doesn’t control the shot. Means you get a more useful measure with which to compare players

 

[Grendel]

People seem hung up on the fee. It’s a minor amount really and would be a cheaper signing than Walsh anyway

 

[Grendel]

I love non data analysts talking about gut feeling trumping statistics or seeing players in person. It means we can keep punching above our weight by using statistics wisely

Watch money ball. Ask shmmee. Using data analytics will improve our chances of improving everything. Sure rubbish data rubbish outcome. Good data means good outcome

So should you have just assists or both assists and chances as the person passing the ball doesn’t control the shot. Means you get a more useful measure with which to compare players

True to an extent but can you honestly say without Walsh we’d have come up last season? His impact was very significant

If the guy signs it’s fine but Walsh was a key player last season.

 

[SBAndy]

People seem hung up on the fee. It’s a minor amount really and would be a cheaper signing than Walsh anyway

It’s because we are essentially a self-proclaimed ‘small time’ club. Filters through in a lot of what Robins/Boddy say. I don’t mind it though as it tempers expectation. £750k is a paltry fee in the Championship.

 

[mrtrench]

It’s because we are essentially a self-proclaimed ‘small time’ club. Filters through in a lot of what Robins/Boddy say. I don’t mind it though as it tempers expectation. £750k is a paltry fee in the Championship.

We're not the Championship though are we? We don't have the money that many others have. Nearly a quarter of the clubs will have massive parachute money; others spend above their means or have had the Championship money for years and hence built up a side spending £2m-£3m a year on transfers over many seasons.

It'll be one of only three or four fees we've paid over £100k in the last 10 years or so. We have a little more to spend now we are in the Championship but it'll still be a chunk of our budget for next season.

 

[SkyblueDad]

It’s because we are essentially a self-proclaimed ‘small time’ club. Filters through in a lot of what Robins/Boddy say. I don’t mind it though as it tempers expectation. £750k is a paltry fee in the Championship.

That £750k was negotiated last season, so which budget is it part of.

 

[better days]

Looked half decent yesterday when he came on. I'm in two minds about sheaf tbh. I'm aware players take time to adapt to this level (hyam for example) but also sheaf didn't really do much for me. Think he had a two game spell where he looked like he was gonna start bossing it and then he disappeared

From what I hear he had a chronic skeletal problem which he was trying to play through
That was why he went back to Arsenal for treatment several weeks before it was announced by the club
I guess this was the issue that meant the deal was a loan with an obligation to buy if the problem was resolved
Hopefully all is good now and we have an experienced, hungry young player for the Championship next season

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

True to an extent but can you honestly say without Walsh we’d have come up last season? His impact was very significant

If the guy signs it’s fine but Walsh was a key player last season.

Why do you think we signed Walsh? And I think he was brilliant and very much part of the league winning season. Probably one of the main reasons for me rather than the one main reason

 

[Marty]

I love non data analysts talking about gut feeling trumping statistics or seeing players in person. It means we can keep punching above our weight by using statistics wisely

Watch money ball. Ask shmmee. Using data analytics will improve our chances of improving everything. Sure rubbish data rubbish outcome. Good data means good outcome

So should you have just assists or both assists and chances as the person passing the ball doesn’t control the shot. Means you get a more useful measure with which to compare players

I haven't said to ignore the stats have I? but they're floored, they don't take into account variables like quality of opposition players, How they set up to play, how you set up to play, teams you haven't played etc. Playing a team like Tranmere will give you far different stats to playing a team like us or Sunderland. Stats won't tell you that you played against the worst performing teams but were injured when you had to play 8 out of the top 10.

Re; the last sentence, If you want to use stats then you need to break it down more, pointless putting a pass that leads to a 60 yard hopeful shot on target, and a killer ball that your striker blazes over from 5 yards lumped in together.

 

[Grendel]

Why do you think we signed Walsh? And I think he was brilliant and very much part of the league winning season. Probably one of the main reasons for me rather than the one main reason

Yet statistically apparently sheaf is better

 

[SlowerThanPlatt]

I haven't said to ignore the stats have I? but they're floored, they don't take into account variables like quality of opposition players, How they set up to play, how you set up to play, teams you haven't played etc. Playing a team like Tranmere will give you far different stats to playing a team like us or Sunderland. Stats won't tell you that you played against the worst performing teams but were injured when you had to play 8 out of the top 10.

Re; the last sentence, If you want to use stats then you need to break it down more, pointless putting a pass that leads to a 60 yard hopeful shot on target, and a killer ball that your striker blazes over from 5 yards lumped in together.

Over the course of season, every player (injury/suspension permitting) plays against the same quality opposition twice don’t they?

I don’t see how it can be argued it’s favourable to him or any other player

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Yet statistically apparently sheaf is better

Different players I think and despite what I’ve said I’m not great on understanding data or analytics

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

I haven't said to ignore the stats have I? but they're floored, they don't take into account variables like quality of opposition players, How they set up to play, how you set up to play, teams you haven't played etc. Playing a team like Tranmere will give you far different stats to playing a team like us or Sunderland. Stats won't tell you that you played against the worst performing teams but were injured when you had to play 8 out of the top 10.

Re; the last sentence, If you want to use stats then you need to break it down more, pointless putting a pass that leads to a 60 yard hopeful shot on target, and a killer ball that your striker blazes over from 5 yards lumped in together.

Agreed on all counts

 

[fatso]

He's in the top 5 of all players under 25 who were once on the books of Arsenal and have the initials B.S.
Hope that clears things up

 

[hill83]

I go off body language and smiles per game (SPG)

 

[Marty]

People seem hung up on the fee. It’s a minor amount really and would be a cheaper signing than Walsh anyway

ROI would be better with Walsh.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Over the course of season, every player (injury/suspension permitting) plays against the same quality opposition twice don’t they?

I don’t see how it can be argued it’s favourable to him or any other player

I think it means they aren’t perfect

 

[SlowerThanPlatt]

I think it means they aren’t perfect

Well yeah, stats should be there to back up what you see with your own eyes.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Well yeah, stats should be there to back up what you see with your own eyes.

Other way round I think in terms of recruitment. You look at what the stats tell you too

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Other way round I think in terms of recruitment. You look at what the stats tell you too

Then the stats don’t tell you if you’re going to land a KASTA with a rotten attitude. Perhaps we should take a bit more time to understand if a player’s got the right mentality as well as the stats

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Then the stats don’t tell you if you’re going to land a KASTA with a rotten attitude. Perhaps we should take a bit more time to understand if a player’s got the right mentality as well as the stats

One can never be sure even after viewing the stats and then spending time watching the player. If someone can come up with a way of assessing resilience in a statistical kind of way that may be a missing picture.

Madness - doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome. Maybe we were wrong to expect we could do something different with kastaneer and despite the talent the reason he was playing at the level he was and no more was because he was only good enough for that

Different with potential cause we don’t know always why a Maddison happens and a Bayliss happens. That’s a real skill to recognise what will happen

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

One can never be sure even after viewing the stats and then spending time watching the player. If someone can come up with a way of assessing resilience in a statistical kind of way that may be a missing picture.

Madness - doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome. Maybe we were wrong to expect we could do something different with kastaneer and despite the talent the reason he was playing at the level he was and no more was because he was only good enough for that

Different with potential cause we don’t know always why a Maddison happens and a Bayliss happens. That’s a real skill to recognise what will happen

No stats needed, just a chat with the player and someone good at judging his attitude. Thinking further back to big duds like Kyle/Eastwood/McKenzie all 3 were just not in the right place mentally.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

No stats needed, just a chat with the player and someone good at judging his attitude. Thinking further back to big duds like Kyle/Eastwood/McKenzie all 3 were just not in the right place mentally.

It’s not that easy and you know it