Big, bigger the biggest balls....who dares wins. (1 Viewer)

Paxman II

Well-Known Member
I warned some weeks ago that there was an underbelly to all this that we had not yet seen.

Well now you see it.

SISU have big balls I give them that. But lets for a moment look at this objectively...

They have agreed with the FL who have accepted the company ACL are after in court in the morning have been put into admin and that is the entity that owns the lease arrangement with ACL to use the stadium.
It's this company that owes the much vaunted £1.3m (not factually correct but not important here)
So they have pulled off a masterful legal stroke that is in fact approved by the FL (as we understand it) and the FL have agreed that the football club (a separate company not in debt and operating) would therefore need a new ground and the FL therefore have little option other than to agree the football club can play out their fixtures at any suitable ground (approved by them) and complete their fixtures.
This suggest NO points deduction. The football club have done nothing to break the FL rules. Indeed the football club owners have apparently had this assurance before taking the action with the entity they have effectively put into admin via a hearing on Thursday with the full knowledge of the FL that the entity that is the football club is completely separate.

The likely outcome of Fridays case is dismissal with no case to answer.

Oh dear ACL. You play your hand and looks like you lose (for the moment at least)
ACL are now left with no tenant. They have lost any avenue of getting paid the lost rent of £1.3m to boot.
Now extraordinarily they also must contend with immediate loss of income streams, the very things SISU have been rattling on about, that are normally generated by the football club supporters on match days. A significant amount and one which Compass are not going to be happy about for one. Compass will want immediate assurances from ACL or have that contract revoked (and a good case they would have) with compensation coming back too most likely. Jobs are threatened all over the place. There's the casino, bars, hotel all affected with loss of such strong foot traffic. I'm sure this was a consideration for all of them when they signed into their leases.
Because of this I suspect that eventually an arrangement will be put in place to allow the football club (no debt to ACL remember) to be free to negotiate some terms on playing at the Ricoh. ACL though battered and bruised would be wise to do so. The terms may be a lot different, even a short term let for now. They must do this before the next due fixture.

Meanwhile the football club have obviously got a very meaningful plan to play elsewhere with immediate effect. Not a threat but a fact supported by the FL.

ACL could lock the football club out. But who are they locking out? The Football Club do not have any arrangement with ACL so they are at present not even a tenant? Obviously the Sky Blues have been playing there as we all know. To stop them doing so would not need any court order, they simply don't have a contract to be there in the first place, hence the new ground arrangement the football club have organised and had approved by the FL. (so that was not a threat)

ACL in effect will have to quickly come cap in hand to the football club prepared to allow them to play at the Ricoh (no doubt for match day cost already known) and a negotiated rent and quite possibly willing to open up avenues on revenue streams for renting the Arena.
That or just face Compass and everyone else and be bloody minded and refuse to let the football club (our Sky Blues) play there? I wouldn't blame them tbh but when thought about calmly they have little choice.
SISU will have played their hand better and ACL will have to dust themselves down and seek a deal to secure a football club there. The wrath towards the council, never mind ACL and a charity will be damming if they don't.

SISU have been bloody minded and I'm reminded of the phrase "nothing personal, it's just business". Like the wrath of a woman scorned. ACL too have been equally destructive for me. The legal system is fraught with complexities and SISU it would appear were backed into a corner by ACL and came out fighting. They have made a statement that they will run this football club until they get a chunk of their investment back and that seems fair enough, regardless of how well we think they have done or will do.

I always thought ACL was formed to operate the arena the best ways possible and that would surely be finding the right compromise to the tenants needs who after all, were the main reason the council picked up the failed original project and completed the build out?

Yes SISU have done it all wrong and made a hash of stuff but had made good significant inroads to getting the books in order having taken the hit of relegation and the 2008 crash. Whoever owned us the same conditions would apply.

ACL will need to deal with the football club for the sake of the City of Coventry, it's people, it's precious football club and history and put some sentiment to one side.
Distrust will continue but deals can be done, their not all babies here. Act like men and move it into a position as I said before and get SISU to a point where they will passover to new ownership or at least a position to sell it on. Hell an new owner could be waiting in the wings now? If I was SISU and saw my £40m threatened I would have taken the same route.
Neither side have done anything illegal but they have been fighting instead of negotiating.

It's just my take, I may be proven wrong. Rant over. ;)
 

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rswxite

New Member
I've read hundreds of threads on here tonight a lot of shit and bickering and that is probably the most sensible and constructive post by far! Well done, nail on the head in every aspect.
 

Flying Fokker

Well-Known Member
I warned some weeks ago that there was an underbelly to all this that we had not yet seen.

Well now you see it.

SISU have big balls I give them that. But lets for a moment look at this objectively...

They have agreed with the FL who have accepted the company ACL are after in court in the morning have been put into admin and that is the entity that owns the lease arrangement with ACL to use the stadium.
It's this company that owes the much vaunted £1.3m (not factually correct but not important here)
So they have pulled off a masterful legal stroke that is in fact approved by the FL (as we understand it) and the FL have agreed that the football club (a separate company not in debt and operating) would therefore need a new ground and the FL therefore have little option other than to agree the football club can play out their fixtures at any suitable ground (approved by them) and complete their fixtures.
This suggest NO points deduction. The football club have done nothing to break the FL rules. Indeed the football club owners have apparently had this assurance before taking the action with the entity they have effectively put into admin via a hearing on Thursday with the full knowledge of the FL that the entity that is the football club is completely separate.

The likely outcome of Fridays case is dismissal with no case to answer.

Oh dear ACL. You play your hand and looks like you lose (for the moment at least)
ACL are now left with no tenant. They have lost any avenue of getting paid the lost rent of £1.3m to boot.
Now extraordinarily they also must contend with immediate loss of income streams, the very things SISU have been rattling on about, that are normally generated by the football club supporters on match days. A significant amount and one which Compass are not going to be happy about for one. Compass will want immediate assurances from ACL or have that contract revoked (and a good case they would have) with compensation coming back too most likely. Jobs are threatened all over the place. There's the casino, bars, hotel all affected with loss of such strong foot traffic. I'm sure this was a consideration for all of them when they signed into their leases.
Because of this I suspect that eventually an arrangement will be put in place to allow the football club (no debt to ACL remember) to be free to negotiate some terms on playing at the Ricoh. ACL though battered and bruised would be wise to do so. The terms may be a lot different, even a short term let for now. They must do this before the next due fixture.

Meanwhile the football club have obviously got a very meaningful plan to play elsewhere with immediate effect. Not a threat but a fact supported by the FL.

ACL could lock the football club out. But who are they locking out? The Football Club do not have any arrangement with ACL so they are at present not even a tenant? Obviously the Sky Blues have been playing there as we all know. To stop them doing so would not need any court order, they simply don't have a contract to be there in the first place, hence the new ground arrangement the football club have organised and had approved by the FL. (so that was not a threat)

ACL in effect will have to quickly come cap in hand to the football club prepared to allow them to play at the Ricoh (no doubt for match day cost already known) and a negotiated rent and quite possibly willing to open up avenues on revenue streams for renting the Arena.
That or just face Compass and everyone else and be bloody minded and refuse to let the football club (our Sky Blues) play there? I wouldn't blame them tbh but when thought about calmly they have little choice.
SISU will have played their hand better and ACL will have to dust themselves down and seek a deal to secure a football club there. The wrath towards the council, never mind ACL and a charity will be damming if they don't.

SISU have been bloody minded and I'm reminded of the phrase "nothing personal, it's just business". Like the wrath of a woman scorned. ACL too have been equally destructive for me. The legal system is fraught with complexities and SISU it would appear were backed into a corner by ACL and came out fighting. They have made a statement that they will run this football club until they get a chunk of their investment back and that seems fair enough, regardless of how well we think they have done or will do.

I always thought ACL was formed to operate the arena the best ways possible and that would surely be finding the right compromise to the tenants needs who after all, were the main reason the council picked up the failed original project and completed the build out?

Yes SISU have done it all wrong and made a hash of stuff but had made good significant inroads to getting the books in order having taken the hit of relegation and the 2008 crash. Whoever owned us the same conditions would apply.

ACL will need to deal with the football club for the sake of the City of Coventry, it's people, it's precious football club and history and put some sentiment to one side.
Distrust will continue but deals can be done, their not all babies here. Act like men and move it into a position as I said before and get SISU to a point where they will passover to new ownership or at least a position to sell it on. Hell an new owner could be waiting in the wings now? If I was SISU and saw my £40m threatened I would have taken the same route.
Neither side have done anything illegal but they have been fighting instead of negotiating.

It's just my take, I may be proven wrong. Rant over. ;)
You've pulled this together well. Why didn't SISU focus their energy like this at the start. We wouldn't be here now would we? We would be arguing about next seasons Premiership season ticket prices and some of us would never be going again!

This divorced couple are really poles apart. It will take a lot of resolve on ACL and CCC's account to pull this back. Without massive legal costs.

Good post.
 

Otis

Well-Known Member
Thing is, this could be the end of CCFC as we know it.

We decide to play elsewhere and things change dramatically.

Sisu may well say it's only temporary, but just how temporary? If the intent is to build another stadium then you are talking 3 years, plus another year in consultation and planning etc.

You have to remember too, this will be built outside Coventry. We would therefore go and play many miles away probably for 3 years or more to then come back to a new stadium that wouldn't even be in Coventry anyway.

This could well end up feeling like not our club anymore anyway.

Just think bridges between ACL and Sisu have been burned now and there is no way back to the Ricoh.
 

covan

New Member
I warned some weeks ago that there was an underbelly to all this that we had not yet seen.

Well now you see it.

SISU have big balls I give them that. But lets for a moment look at this objectively...

They have agreed with the FL who have accepted the company ACL are after in court in the morning have been put into admin and that is the entity that owns the lease arrangement with ACL to use the stadium.
It's this company that owes the much vaunted £1.3m (not factually correct but not important here)
So they have pulled off a masterful legal stroke that is in fact approved by the FL (as we understand it) and the FL have agreed that the football club (a separate company not in debt and operating) would therefore need a new ground and the FL therefore have little option other than to agree the football club can play out their fixtures at any suitable ground (approved by them) and complete their fixtures.
This suggest NO points deduction. The football club have done nothing to break the FL rules. Indeed the football club owners have apparently had this assurance before taking the action with the entity they have effectively put into admin via a hearing on Thursday with the full knowledge of the FL that the entity that is the football club is completely separate.

The likely outcome of Fridays case is dismissal with no case to answer.

Oh dear ACL. You play your hand and looks like you lose (for the moment at least)
ACL are now left with no tenant. They have lost any avenue of getting paid the lost rent of £1.3m to boot.
Now extraordinarily they also must contend with immediate loss of income streams, the very things SISU have been rattling on about, that are normally generated by the football club supporters on match days. A significant amount and one which Compass are not going to be happy about for one. Compass will want immediate assurances from ACL or have that contract revoked (and a good case they would have) with compensation coming back too most likely. Jobs are threatened all over the place. There's the casino, bars, hotel all affected with loss of such strong foot traffic. I'm sure this was a consideration for all of them when they signed into their leases.
Because of this I suspect that eventually an arrangement will be put in place to allow the football club (no debt to ACL remember) to be free to negotiate some terms on playing at the Ricoh. ACL though battered and bruised would be wise to do so. The terms may be a lot different, even a short term let for now. They must do this before the next due fixture.

Meanwhile the football club have obviously got a very meaningful plan to play elsewhere with immediate effect. Not a threat but a fact supported by the FL.

ACL could lock the football club out. But who are they locking out? The Football Club do not have any arrangement with ACL so they are at present not even a tenant? Obviously the Sky Blues have been playing there as we all know. To stop them doing so would not need any court order, they simply don't have a contract to be there in the first place, hence the new ground arrangement the football club have organised and had approved by the FL. (so that was not a threat)

ACL in effect will have to quickly come cap in hand to the football club prepared to allow them to play at the Ricoh (no doubt for match day cost already known) and a negotiated rent and quite possibly willing to open up avenues on revenue streams for renting the Arena.
That or just face Compass and everyone else and be bloody minded and refuse to let the football club (our Sky Blues) play there? I wouldn't blame them tbh but when thought about calmly they have little choice.
SISU will have played their hand better and ACL will have to dust themselves down and seek a deal to secure a football club there. The wrath towards the council, never mind ACL and a charity will be damming if they don't.

SISU have been bloody minded and I'm reminded of the phrase "nothing personal, it's just business". Like the wrath of a woman scorned. ACL too have been equally destructive for me. The legal system is fraught with complexities and SISU it would appear were backed into a corner by ACL and came out fighting. They have made a statement that they will run this football club until they get a chunk of their investment back and that seems fair enough, regardless of how well we think they have done or will do.

I always thought ACL was formed to operate the arena the best ways possible and that would surely be finding the right compromise to the tenants needs who after all, were the main reason the council picked up the failed original project and completed the build out?

Yes SISU have done it all wrong and made a hash of stuff but had made good significant inroads to getting the books in order having taken the hit of relegation and the 2008 crash. Whoever owned us the same conditions would apply.

ACL will need to deal with the football club for the sake of the City of Coventry, it's people, it's precious football club and history and put some sentiment to one side.
Distrust will continue but deals can be done, their not all babies here. Act like men and move it into a position as I said before and get SISU to a point where they will passover to new ownership or at least a position to sell it on. Hell an new owner could be waiting in the wings now? If I was SISU and saw my £40m threatened I would have taken the same route.
Neither side have done anything illegal but they have been fighting instead of negotiating.

It's just my take, I may be proven wrong. Rant over. ;)


Brilliant post.
 

jackmartin

New Member
great post, what now for compass if ccfc play away from the ricoh? and thats another thing why would ricoh want to have naming rights to a ground that wont be used
 

skyblu3sk

Well-Known Member
I still think there is a chance a new stadium could in theory be built in Coventry. It would take a lot of legal wrangling but lets face it SISU are no fools in that area...
 

Godiva

Well-Known Member
Thing is, this could be the end of CCFC as we know it.

No Otis, this latest turn show that the club have owners willing to fight for it.

Pax, good post.
ACL may go back to the club and offer them to continue playing there at a price ccfc is willing/able to pay, but that won't be the end of it.
The club need to own the stadium - not the bricks, but the operations. That means either ACL and the club are merged or the club will build a new stadium.
So if ACL goes back to ccfc hat in hand, they will be forced to accept a new short term lease and a short timeframe where CCC/Higgs can decide if they are willing to hand over their shares in ACL.

It's time people actually start to take statements/leaks from TF serious.
They ARE prepared to play elsewhere.
They ARE prepared to build a new stadium.
They ARE prepared to groundshare while a new stadium is being built.
Their goal is to have a club benefitting from all stadium revenue streams.
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
No Otis, this latest turn show that the club have owners willing to fight for it.

Pax, good post.
ACL may go back to the club and offer them to continue playing there at a price ccfc is willing/able to pay, but that won't be the end of it.
The club need to own the stadium - not the bricks, but the operations. That means either ACL and the club are merged or the club will build a new stadium.
So if ACL goes back to ccfc hat in hand, they will be forced to accept a new short term lease and a short timeframe where CCC/Higgs can decide if they are willing to hand over their shares in ACL.

It's time people actually start to take statements/leaks from TF serious.
They ARE prepared to play elsewhere.
They ARE prepared to build a new stadium.
They ARE prepared to groundshare while a new stadium is being built.
Their goal is to have a club benefitting from all stadium revenue streams.[/QUOTE
Why are you so pro sisu?? Have they helped your club in any way in the last 6 years??
 

luwalla

Well-Known Member
exactly as i saw/see it .. what did anyone expect, SISU are no mugs.. ACL obviously didnt have their ducks in a row before they went steaming in, and werent as clever as they thought they were.

SISUs kick in the balls here , is that they have put significant amounts of money into this club ( although i doubt its the 40 million banded around ) and they will have to put significantly more in to stand any chance of getting any kind of return..

ACLs kick in the balls is that they were too greedy & too short sighted
 

Godiva

Well-Known Member
Why are you so pro sisu?? Have they helped your club in any way in the last 6 years??

Actually they have done something right - they have started to get the finances under control. Not from day one when they let Ranson lay the foundation to the current mess, but from two years ago when they took control themself. Their first move then was a disaster - appointing Ken Dulieu - but appointing Fischer and Waggot was finally a right move.
You can't find many who doesn't agree that the club needs to be financial viable, must be able to have income to offset the costs. So far it has mostly been about cost cuttings, now they are finally looking at the other side of the equation - improve income.
The club needs to benefit from ALL activities at the stadium to ensure there are enough income to make us compatible as well as financial viable. And the only real long term solution is to either have ACL merged into the club or to build a new stadium.

When sisu have done this they can bogger off.
 

Paxman II

Well-Known Member
ACL must have been flapping all over the place at the hearing this morning. They do accept that it's a pointless exercise locking the football club out of the Ricoh. Funny how once you are slapped down a bit you come back more conciliatory? Not saying this is over by any means.
Tuesday's hearing can't make much difference. ACL may argue the legitimacy of the football club putting the 'Ltd' company in to liquidation but it's too late to effect matters in my opinion.

Now we have the FL convening today who will now look closer at what has transpired (not withstanding their already consented view given to the football club) and may find a way of applying the 10 points deduction. I think that is very difficult for them as this situation is different from the Southampton case often mentioned. The FL may just decide to do it and take some flack through the courts and if that is the case SISU as the football club will of course fight that tooth and nail. In which case these 10 points are hardly likely to be levied this season unless the football club are quite willing to accept that? Somehow I doubt it.

ACL meet again today to tend their bruises and if I were them come back to the club (CCFC Holdings) for an immediate deal on the rent and
revenue streams. This will not take place before that hearing on Tuesday just in case they can get the admin of CCFC Ltd overturned.
SISU too will need to get a deal done quickly or face losing all face with shared ground schemes they lined up, (which has probably already cost them a non returnable deposit) and explain to the FL they will be continuing at the Ricoh.

So where is the 'lined up buyers' in all this? Hmm... Anyone looking for a bargain football club in admin and sugary deal with ACL are now facing a different proposition. I still maintain that outside investors can get their hands on the Ricoh and the land investment opportunity but not without obtaining the football club. That puts a price on the football clubs head. ACL could back that stance in favour of SISU for once (provided a realistic price was agreed) so they could see SISU claw back some of their investment and leave finally, which is what they want to do. Question is SISU are not going anywhere yet and will continue to operate the football club until such 'ghostly' investors make a move.
 

Warwickhunt

Well-Known Member
Very articulate Paxman! how do you see next tuesday court appearence going as a result?
 

Paxman II

Well-Known Member
Very articulate Paxman! how do you see next tuesday court appearence going as a result?

I think it's too late for ACL to have any material effect on CCFC Ltd that has already passed into admin. Their argument may be that this company has no assets to place in admin and therefore seek to have that overturned. I'm no legal expert but doubt that very much but as I have stated before the complexities of the courts and their rulings mean it's still a possibility, which would hand ACL the drivers seat again. I doubt it though.

I remember way back facing a high court hearing on a company related matter and I employed the top barrister in the UK at some £20k for some consultation and the hearing (and this was 1988!)
But when he confronted the opponents and judge it was all over in 5 minutes with a win for me. These guys know the ins and outs of the laws to unbelievable depths and a judge simply can't rule other than in law. Me thinks SISU have some mighty powerful legal team at their disposal.
 
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rob9872

Well-Known Member
Great AC/DC song
 

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