letsallsingtogether
Well-Known Member
I'm sure I heard that Wasps will be playing all their home games on a Sunday next season...
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Grendel
Well-Known Member
Your comment on away fans is bizarre. The average attendance for away fans last year was sub 500. How many as a percentage stay at the hotel? Are you seriously saying the Hilton or whoever owns it would factor this in?
The casino again is a very odd comment. It's 23 days a year and will generate additional revenue for a fraction of that time in those 23 days.
Also it has no bearing on ACL as they will receive no additional benefit from what I can see anyway as their ground rent stays the same.
Which other companies rely on football being played there and why would wasps care anyway?
By your standards even a truly strange and Ill informed rant.
Otis
Well-Known Member
Nope! They all live within 15 mins walk of the ground.
When we ground share they will all live within 6 hrs 45 mins walk of the ground.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
I can only put your reply down to deliberate ignorance, which is also the height of stupidity. Congratulations, you've out done yourself.
CCFC brought an additional footfall of nearly 290,000 people to the Ricoh site last season and that is an added value to ACL of CCFC being there.
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oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
ACL Turnover - ACL is a sub group of Wasps Holdings. It owns IEC Experience jointly with Compass but ACL has 77% of iec which was set up in 2012 to run the events etc (ie ACL was split in to 2 companies)
ACL results (year end 31/05)
..... turnover .... profit/(loss)
...... £m ........ £m
2006..... 2.5 ..... (3.4)
2007 ..... 6.4 ..... 0.868
2008 ..... 7.3 ..... 0.008
2009 ..... 6.8 ..... 3.2
2010 ..... 6.6 ..... 0.546
2011 ..... 6.6 ..... 0.471
2012..... 7.8 ..... 1.1 (IEC Experience formed April 2012)
2013..... 14.5 ..... 0.714
2014 ..... 12.1 ..... (0.453) (CCFC left for Sixfields july 2013)
2015 ...... 19.5 ..... (2.06) (thirteen months as year end changed to 30/06 from 31/05 CCFC returned Sept 2014 Wasps took over Oct 2014)
6 mths .... 9.4 ..... ? (no separate details available but turnover for year will include MTV, Springsteen & Rhianna )
ACL turnover is significantly higher now than in 2007 and up to 30/06/2015 there were accumulated P&L surplus of 990k
Footfall. Apparently for 2015/16 season it was CCFC 300k and Wasps 235k. However the spend per head was football £1.97 gross and rugby £5.84 gross. this equates to totals of football £591,000 and rugby £1,372,400 (inc VAT at 20%)
Total footfall was in region of 1.2m I believe. 55% is not major sports (CCFC/Wasps) related
the Casino has a long lease with something like 20 years to run. They make their money out of gambling unsurprisingly, an influx of football fans 23 or so times a year for a beer and a little gambling for a few hours is in the scheme of things going to be pocket money to them
the £72000 that CCFC receives from F&B. This is the 50:50 split of the gross profit shared between CCFC and Wasps. Whilst it is income/turnover for CCFC it is not the F&B turnover for the football year. The Gross profit margin is 30% in line with what TF said it was at Charlton. CCFC receive their £72k free of any cost or risk, they do not contribute to the direct costs, staffing, utilities or stock holding. Surely if turnover is so vital in L1 it is strange that they agreed to a simple split of gross profit - surely a split of the turnover would have been better. Maybe they couldn't do that
ACL results (year end 31/05)
..... turnover .... profit/(loss)
...... £m ........ £m
2006..... 2.5 ..... (3.4)
2007 ..... 6.4 ..... 0.868
2008 ..... 7.3 ..... 0.008
2009 ..... 6.8 ..... 3.2
2010 ..... 6.6 ..... 0.546
2011 ..... 6.6 ..... 0.471
2012..... 7.8 ..... 1.1 (IEC Experience formed April 2012)
2013..... 14.5 ..... 0.714
2014 ..... 12.1 ..... (0.453) (CCFC left for Sixfields july 2013)
2015 ...... 19.5 ..... (2.06) (thirteen months as year end changed to 30/06 from 31/05 CCFC returned Sept 2014 Wasps took over Oct 2014)
6 mths .... 9.4 ..... ? (no separate details available but turnover for year will include MTV, Springsteen & Rhianna )
ACL turnover is significantly higher now than in 2007 and up to 30/06/2015 there were accumulated P&L surplus of 990k
Footfall. Apparently for 2015/16 season it was CCFC 300k and Wasps 235k. However the spend per head was football £1.97 gross and rugby £5.84 gross. this equates to totals of football £591,000 and rugby £1,372,400 (inc VAT at 20%)
Total footfall was in region of 1.2m I believe. 55% is not major sports (CCFC/Wasps) related
the Casino has a long lease with something like 20 years to run. They make their money out of gambling unsurprisingly, an influx of football fans 23 or so times a year for a beer and a little gambling for a few hours is in the scheme of things going to be pocket money to them
the £72000 that CCFC receives from F&B. This is the 50:50 split of the gross profit shared between CCFC and Wasps. Whilst it is income/turnover for CCFC it is not the F&B turnover for the football year. The Gross profit margin is 30% in line with what TF said it was at Charlton. CCFC receive their £72k free of any cost or risk, they do not contribute to the direct costs, staffing, utilities or stock holding. Surely if turnover is so vital in L1 it is strange that they agreed to a simple split of gross profit - surely a split of the turnover would have been better. Maybe they couldn't do that
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Skyblueweeman
Well-Known Member
Just to clarify on the hotel - it's wholly owned by ACL and run by Hilton Worldwide on a Franchise agreement. Hotel chains are increasingly switching to a franchised model however do continue to build and operate their own 'owned and managed' properties. DoubleTree by Hilton, like any other brands (Hilton Worldwide or other) will consist of both franchised properties and owned/managed properties. To the end user, it makes no difference and brand standards need to be adhered to, regardless of hotel ownership.
As for fans staying in the hotel for games...well, midweeks would be unlikely. Tuesdays and Wednesdays are a hotels busiest nights of the week in the majority of cases for urban conurbation hotels. This is mainly due to business transient travel over those dates as no one really wants to be away from home on a Monday or Thurs/Fri. If the DTbH Ricoh Arena is full when we're playing at home midweek, I bet all the money I don't have that it's due to business travellers as opposed to city fans.
What's more, I work with an agent on packaging hotel stays for PL games. Travellers coming in from around the globe for PL games. The uptake isn't as great as it could be. That's for the top PL teams so I would go as far to say that I could probably count the number of people staying in hotels for Cov games, on one hand. My estimate is that 99.999% are local or travel on the day.
As you were...
As for fans staying in the hotel for games...well, midweeks would be unlikely. Tuesdays and Wednesdays are a hotels busiest nights of the week in the majority of cases for urban conurbation hotels. This is mainly due to business transient travel over those dates as no one really wants to be away from home on a Monday or Thurs/Fri. If the DTbH Ricoh Arena is full when we're playing at home midweek, I bet all the money I don't have that it's due to business travellers as opposed to city fans.
What's more, I work with an agent on packaging hotel stays for PL games. Travellers coming in from around the globe for PL games. The uptake isn't as great as it could be. That's for the top PL teams so I would go as far to say that I could probably count the number of people staying in hotels for Cov games, on one hand. My estimate is that 99.999% are local or travel on the day.
As you were...
Sky Blue Kid
Well-Known Member
SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
No...think of it the other way around. Our owners came into the picture originally & wanted the Ricoh as cheap as they could possibly get it...& to progress into gaining a foothold in every pie in the city
...onwards & upwards PUSB
Grendel
Well-Known Member
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
nope
Before 2015 year end there had been significant growth and Wasps were not involved. Significant increase above 2007 levels kicked in from the 2012 year end. The one thing the dispute did was to focus minds at ACL on obtaining income from non CCFC sources. The dispute broke the lease but it had other effects too
The Wasps Holdings Group turnover to 30/06/15 was 21m (wasps 9m ACL & IEC 12.4m) but that only included ACL group turnover from October 2014 (nearly 5 months excluded)because Wasps holdings had no rights to the turnover of ACL group before then. According to a note in the accounts had ACL and Wasps groups been joined for the full year turnover would have been over 26m
Yes some of the IEC income could include Rugby income depends what they call match day income and how they allocate it. But in the group situation it is an internal sale and excluded when doing the consolidated figures (ie a cost in one group company matches a sale in another and contras out) - Group accounts reflect only turnover external to the group members
The six month figures to 31/12/15 released to the London stock exchange showed the following
Wasps £5.8m
ACL & IEC 9.4m
Total £15.2m
It hasn't just increased because of the rugby
That's the point though isn't it too many people think it is just about the rugby and football incomes. The other incomes are what provide a financial fall back for Wasps that could and should have been CCFC's. Most of the income has nothing to do with Wasps rugby and even the rugby income Wasps do get has a big chunk guaranteed because it is RFU central distributions
All of which means Wasps call the tune at the Ricoh and CCFC are not that important to them in the sense Wasps holdings will not go bust without CCFC matches being there
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Grendel
Well-Known Member
Surely though the comparison is to compare the combined income of the main club and ACL?
So in 2007 when ACL was around £7 million revenue what was CCFC revenue - as a pure guess I would say around £11 million so it's about £18 million?
Also didnt wasps sign a new deal with IEC? For 15 years? I would guess a large element of the extra revenue is through that isn't it? Previously the profit margins on that were really low weren't they - around 10% from memory?
I do agree with your last statement though so it's all semantics I guess.
The notion that a few blokes in a casino and a couple from Ireland pitch up in a hotel for 23 days a year improves our bargaining position is frankly the most absurd thing I've read for a long time.
We are irrelevant. The only way we will not be is if the rent is hiked up as I guess our profit to turnover ratio is really high.
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skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
That's because as always you're incapable of seeing the bigger picture, you're looking at one piece of the jigsaw in isolation and missing everything else. CCFC adds value to the Ricoh arena wether that be footfall or profile the same way as it does the City of Coventry. Value that should be acknowledged.
Skyblueweeman
Well-Known Member
If it adds value to the City of Coventry, why have the custodians decided upon support for a City of Rugby, driven primarily by a franchise operation with absolutely no history in city whatsoever (bar 18 or so months) as opposed to something that has added value to the city since 1883?
Doesn't make sense, does it?
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
tbf, I'm kind of reading this as what Tony's driving at...
Skyblueweeman
Well-Known Member
Gotcha. Apologies big Tone if I've mis-read (as per...)
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
If I'm honest, whenever Tony and Grendel play out their flirting, I tend to zone out if any of them actually say anything sensible or not
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Yep. Pretty much.
Skyblueweeman
Well-Known Member
If I'm honest, whenever Tony and Grendel play out their flirting, I tend to zone out if any of them actually say anything sensible or not
Ha ha ha! Fair comment. ***clapping hands emoji***
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
2007 the CCFC turnover was £9.6m ACL was 6.4m at the Ricoh
2015 the CCFC turnover was £4.7m ACL was 19m plus wasps had another 9m at the Ricoh
Or look at it in 2014 year for ACL turnover was 12.1m with no rugby and no football - ACL turnover significantly above 2007 levels
But why bring that in when it is two separate groups? ACL group turnover 2007 was 6.4m in 2015 ACL (excluding Wasps) was 19m. Whichever way you cut it ACL income has gone up not just because of sport but particularly because of the other uses of the site
Wasps own IEC through owning ACL so had to sign nothing with IEC. IEC signed a deal with Compass for 15 years. That's a service agreement meaning that Compass service the turnover that is there and to be brought in. The Compass agreement it itself does not increase turnover
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dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
Cheers OSB
Looks like my friend is correct. ACL have massively upped their game.
Looks like my friend is correct. ACL have massively upped their game.
Email from the company progressing the proposed new development to CCC -
"WaspsTrainingCentre‐Existingpitch/courts
Further to our discussion and for clarity in respect of the existing netball courts and football pitch, which are included within the red line boundary for the Wasps Training Centre application, I would like to confirm the following.
The football pitch the training centre is proposed to be built on is currently leased to the Coventry City FC (CCFC) Academy until 30th June 2017. Subject to the approval of the Wasps application, CCFC have agreed to relocate from their current pitch to one of the four top pitches on the wider Higgs Centre site. Wasps would contribute towards the cost of that move and this arrangement will remain in place until the current CCFC Academy lease on site ends. An offer has also been made by Wasps to CCFC for use of the proposed indoor pitch, on a standard commercial basis, after their lease on site ends and discussions on the matter are expected to continue in the near future.
In respect of the outdoor netball courts, the Coventry Sports Foundation have confirmed that these have not been in use since 2010 and are ranked as being in a poor condition in the Playing Pitch Assessment for Coventry (2014). The Higgs Centre does have indoor netball courts which available for use to the general public.’"
"WaspsTrainingCentre‐Existingpitch/courts
Further to our discussion and for clarity in respect of the existing netball courts and football pitch, which are included within the red line boundary for the Wasps Training Centre application, I would like to confirm the following.
The football pitch the training centre is proposed to be built on is currently leased to the Coventry City FC (CCFC) Academy until 30th June 2017. Subject to the approval of the Wasps application, CCFC have agreed to relocate from their current pitch to one of the four top pitches on the wider Higgs Centre site. Wasps would contribute towards the cost of that move and this arrangement will remain in place until the current CCFC Academy lease on site ends. An offer has also been made by Wasps to CCFC for use of the proposed indoor pitch, on a standard commercial basis, after their lease on site ends and discussions on the matter are expected to continue in the near future.
In respect of the outdoor netball courts, the Coventry Sports Foundation have confirmed that these have not been in use since 2010 and are ranked as being in a poor condition in the Playing Pitch Assessment for Coventry (2014). The Higgs Centre does have indoor netball courts which available for use to the general public.’"
SkyBlueZack
Well-Known Member
Standard commercial basis? Is this the same as their peppercorn rent?
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
I would guess its pretty much the opposite of peppercorn rent.
SkyBlueZack
Well-Known Member
Is it possible to find out how much CCFC pay now? And what Wasps would expect us to pay? Surely if they are only wanting to help, they will do so at the price we currently pay?
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Am I being naive in thinking this is reasonably positive, or am I missing something?
stupot07
Well-Known Member
I think hou are reading too much into jt. It just means that next season, whilst the building work is going on and they're building the kicking barn, the academy will use one of the four remaining pitches as their academy 'first team' pitch (replacing the one where the kicking barn will go) and wasps will pay for it to be brought up to standard and maintained as standard. I assume this will then be one of the 2 pitches wasps will get sole use of when they move in. So in the long run its for their benefit anyway.
We know wasps had offered up to 3 hours a day in the evening of their kicking barn at commercial rate, it was in and through the paper weeks ago. I guess this is what the letter refers to. Good PR though.
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D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
It dpes suggest talking is happening though, which is surely progress!
stupot07
Well-Known Member
You missed my added but. We know from the trust talks aren't happening thats why they have offered to broker, they probably mean the offer through the paper. Tbh is this just the standard comms/fob off I'd expect.
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SkyBlue_Bear83
Well-Known Member
Yep, I'm guessing whilst we have a contract to 2017 the Higgs have a contractual obligation to provide the necessary facilities until we leave. Because of the building work next season we have to move pitches, Higgs have just passed this bill onto Wasps. Not them doing us a massive favour, just Higgs doing what they are required to do.