The British people are being shit on from a great height. We decided to leave by over 1m votes! WTF is happening to democracy?
He's placing the blame for decline in industry with membership of the EU yet his own company moved manufacturing overseas (outside of the EU) to save money.What exactly are you getting at?
He's placing the blame for decline in industry with membership of the EU yet his own company moved manufacturing overseas (outside of the EU) to save money.
If you were there in the 70's you will realise that uncompetitive businesses, like British Leyland, British Coal, British Steel etc had unuons that refused to accept there was competition in the world and efficiencies needed to be made.And the same Tory Govt of the 70's and 80's destroyed manufacturing in our City out of self interest. The same Govt that today purchases Swedish Steel for our defence requirements
And the same Tory Govt of the 70's and 80's destroyed manufacturing in our City out of self interest. The same Govt that today purchases Swedish Steel for our defence requirements
If you were there in the 70's you will realise that uncompetitive businesses, like British Leyland, British Coal, British Steel etc had unuons that refused to accept there was competition in the world and efficiencies needed to be made.
I was at British Leyland, Morris Engines and if Red Robbo never had us out the miners and the 3 day week did.
This complacency by the unions was making matters worse and they had to be reigned in. Well done Maggie.
Are you trying to say that Maggie Thatcher was blameless?Our car industry was a lame duck. Triumph Motorcycles Meriden became a workers cooperative with the toolmakers getting the same money as the floor sweepers - 50 quid a week. Tony Benn gave the workers' board millions- last seen heading for the Caribbean. At the end all that was left was the badge.
But blame Maggie.
Did they vote to give billions to the EU and to have open borders?Did you fight in WWII or was it your parents generation that did? After all they were the ones that took us in in the 70's and voted a second time to stay in...
Are you trying to say that Maggie Thatcher was blameless?
How many people voted for a sitting MP?
She did what she had to and made us more competitive in the industries we could be competitive in.Are you trying to say that Maggie Thatcher was blameless?
Our car industry was a lame duck. ............. At the end all that was left was the badge.
But blame Maggie.
I hear the fishing quotas quoted a lot but stock levels were perilously low and have recovered significantly as a result, arguably saving the industry from terminal decline. Despite this quota, the GP of the UK fishing industry has increased by 20% in the last 8 years alone to circa 35% GP margin. We still control where our quota is allocated too and our national decision has been to put 23%(!!) of our total quota on one (Dutch owned!) monster-ship. Decisions like that, and technology advances meaning less ships are needed anyway, have decimated small port fishing as a result.Every UK law that is overuled by the EU ie- Fishing boundaries. We are are 50% down on what we are "Told" we can catch. Reclaiming control of our UK borders, Steel manufacturing cut. This might explain better than I can.....
How joining the EU led to a big decline in UK industry
By johnredwood | Published: June 16, 2016
There are also crucial issues to understand about how the asymmetric single market did damage to Uk industry. When we joined the EEC, now the EU, in 1973, more barriers to trade had been pulled down in manufacturing than in services. EU rules were often such that UK industry was badly damaged by the shock of joining and the continued shock of staying in as the rules increased and tightened.
When the UK joined the EU we had a 45 million tonnes a year steel industry. Today we are battling to save an 11 million tonnes industry.
When we joined the EU we had a 400,000 tonnes a year aluminium industry. Today we have just 43,000 tonnes of capacity left.
When we joined the EU we had 20 million tonnes of cement capacity. Today we have 12 million tonnes.
Just before we joined the EEC in 1971 we had a 1 million tonnes a year fishing industry. Today we have 600,000 tonnes.
The October 2013 government “Future of Manufacturing” Report shows that between 1951 and 1973 metals output rose 3% a year. Since joining the EEC/EU it has declined by more than 6%
Between 1951 and 1973 food and drink output rose by 5.6% per year. Since joining the EEC/EU it has fallen by 1% a year.
Between 1951 and 1973 textiles output expanded at 2.6% a year. Since joining the EEC/EU it has fallen by more than 6% a year.
Whilst it may not be fair to blame all this decline on membership of the EU, as there are other factors, it nonetheless shows categorically that joining the EU and helping create the so called single market has not helped us grow and has not saved many of our industries from decline.
In some cases EU policies are the main driver of the disaster. The Common Fishing Policy is clearly the main reason for the dreadful decline of our fishing industry, as many foreign vessels were licenced to take our fish. Our energy intensive businesses were often damaged by the high energy prices required by the EU common energy policy.
The EU has prevented UK subsidy of industry under its state aids rules, but has often provided subsidised loans and grants to businesses to set up elsewhere in the EU. The UK has seen a spate of factory closures balanced by new and expanded facilities in poorer EU countries. The UK lost van production to Turkey, car capacity to Slovakia, chocolate to Poland, domestic appliances to the Netherlands and the Czech Republic and metal containers to Poland amongst others in recent years. In various cases there was an EU grant or loan involved in the new capacity.
Looking at our huge balance of payments deficit today in goods with the rest of the EU, we can see the long term impact of the EU’s damage to our manufacturing capacity.
I hear the fishing quotas quoted a lot but stock levels were perilously low and have recovered significantly as a result, arguably saving the industry from terminal decline. Despite this quota, the GP of the UK fishing industry has increased by 20% in the last 8 years alone to circa 35% GP margin. We still control where our quota is allocated too and our national decision has been to put 23%(!!) of our total quota on one (Dutch owned!) monster-ship. Decisions like that, and technology advances meaning less ships are needed anyway, have decimated small port fishing as a result.
To compare 1950s industry output to that of more recent times is misleading at best and conveniently fails to even list, nevermind discuss, the 'other factors' it acknowledges exist while it is more than happy to simultaneously directly link the EU with not saving many of our industries from decline.
Take the cement industry too as another example - absolutely decimated by the 1970s energy crisis, a decline which went on into the 90s and hammered again in the 00s by the global recession which saw a huge drop in construction activity. As those old factories have finally been replaced with more modern facilities combined with austerity measures driving efficiency, the cement industry has recovered significantly to it's current position - achieved as part of the EU but no more because of it than any of the decline preceding it
These industry one liners here are synonymous with the leave campaign and akin to the 'we send the EU £350 million a week' bus. One line propaganda sentences taken entirely out of context and without proper expert view or discussion, with the sole purpose of tricking people like you into thinking they have 'researched' the issues or feeding you enough of a snippet that you won't bother digging any deeper because it's what you want to believe.
PS I'm 38, so you'll have to make do with a different adjective than young, when you call me a c**t.
So how many coal mines do we have left? Have they only shut down the worse ones? We had thousands that could never find another job and just imported the coal we needed.She did what she had to and made us more competitive in the industries we could be competitive in.
Mining coal in 12 inch seams was stupid to continue and concentrating on more efficient pits like Coventry with 20 foot seams was required.
In the car industry the Japanese (who cars we we laughed at) took advantage and slowly overtook us.
It is easy to word it like everything is now OK. But it isn't.I hear the fishing quotas quoted a lot but stock levels were perilously low and have recovered significantly as a result, arguably saving the industry from terminal decline. Despite this quota, the GP of the UK fishing industry has increased by 20% in the last 8 years alone to circa 35% GP margin. We still control where our quota is allocated too and our national decision has been to put 23%(!!) of our total quota on one (Dutch owned!) monster-ship. Decisions like that, and technology advances meaning less ships are needed anyway, have decimated small port fishing as a result.
To compare 1950s industry output to that of more recent times is misleading at best and conveniently fails to even list, nevermind discuss, the 'other factors' it acknowledges exist while it is more than happy to simultaneously directly link the EU with not saving many of our industries from decline.
Take the cement industry too as another example - absolutely decimated by the 1970s energy crisis, a decline which went on into the 90s and hammered again in the 00s by the global recession which saw a huge drop in construction activity. As those old factories have finally been replaced with more modern facilities combined with austerity measures driving efficiency, the cement industry has recovered significantly to it's current position - achieved as part of the EU but no more because of it than any of the decline preceding it
These industry one liners here are synonymous with the leave campaign and akin to the 'we send the EU £350 million a week' bus. One line propaganda sentences taken entirely out of context and without proper expert view or discussion, with the sole purpose of tricking people like you into thinking they have 'researched' the issues or feeding you enough of a snippet that you won't bother digging any deeper because it's what you want to believe.
PS I'm 38, so you'll have to make do with a different adjective than young, when you call me a c**t.
So how many coal mines do we have left? Have they only shut down the worse ones? We had thousands that could never find another job and just imported the coal we needed.
It was a fight against unions. Yes the unions were too strong. But most of their strength has been taken away. There should have been a happy medium.
So what was the saving putting a lot of people out of work in areas where job opportunities were very low just to import coal that was a bit cheaper?Better talk to Arthur Scargill about that ( although I think he is dead )...
So what was the saving putting a lot of people out of work in areas where job opportunities were very low just to import coal that was a bit cheaper?
Did they vote to give billions to the EU and to have open borders?
Look at what percentage of different ages voted to leave. Those that you mention had the highest percentage vote to leave.
I'm not saying anything is OK. I'm saying attributing the things that are not OK to the EU based on one line sentences quoting carefully chosen 'facts' is bullshit.It is easy to word it like everything is now OK. But it isn't.
You say about fishing and quotas. They are only allowed to catch a certain amount of each species. And once they have caught their quota for certain species they have to throw them back in when caught. The problem is they don't survive. So it is a total waste. And you can't just put your nets out knowing that you won't catch what you are not allowed to land.
I'm not saying anything is OK. I'm saying attributing the things that are not OK to the EU based on one line sentences quoting carefully chosen 'facts' is bullshit.
There have been phased discard bans since 2015 driven almost exclusively by ...the UK! (shock horror at those dictators in Brussels listening to us) And quotas were upwardly adjusted accordingly as the approach was phased in to help compensate. To ease the impact the EU also part funded the purchase or development of innovative gear for more selective fishing or to help develop new markets for fish that were previously discarded. And a complete ban on the discarding of all quota species will be in place by 2019...... Unless the EU do a U-turn because we've fucked off and there's no-one left to protect it, in which case we'll be utterly screwed in trying to protect the stock.
As I said the unions were too strong. Now they are too weak to properly look after the working man. For instance if the unions were stronger there would not be such a thing as zero hours contracts at most places. And nobody can say that they are good for anyone but those running the companies using them....usually Tories.You said there should have been a happy medium, but that was never going to happen with Scargill who had turned the NUM into his personal dictatorship.
Import coal may have been cheaper, but that wasn't the only reason. We had already been held to ransom by the NUM before under Joe Gormley. I think there was strategic thinking behind it all.
I can't be far out from your views thenI dont know if I am at odds with you or in agreement.
The point I was making was that during the lead up to the referendum I heard many older people and pensioners saying we didn't fight the war to be controlled by Brussels (or something similar). as per post #18
By definition you would have to be nigh on 90 to have fought in the war yet it was people in their 60's and 70's coming out with that sort of rhetoric. The very generations who never had it so good, free education, free health care , final salary pensions, the ability to afford their own homes retirement at 60 and 65 much of which will be denied to the current working generation. ......Pull up the ladder jack I'm alright.
Then why hold a referendum?
I think you need to research a bit mate! We held a referendum on something that wasn't democratically voted for in the first place! We joined a "Free market" not to be told "How are jurisdiction should be run" Everything today stinks of "Do as we say".... I won't be told how to act by another Entity that has no right. As for your response.. I'm willing to bet you're no older than 21-22? Young "Know it alls" claiming us "Oldies" are ruining your future! It's "The oldies" that fought to give you "Youngs 'uns" a future, you bunch of ungrateful c**ts.
So how many coal mines do we have left? Have they only shut down the worse ones? We had thousands that could never find another job and just imported the coal we needed.
It was a fight against unions. Yes the unions were too strong. But most of their strength has been taken away. There should have been a happy medium.
At the time we joint the IMF were bailing out Britain we had no money the place was on its knees. Fast forward 50 years and we are the 5th largest economy in the world .... kinda worked didn't it.
But lets forget all the positives and throw them away that because we need British Justice and British Laws but oh hang on....that does not suite you either does it . We wont be told by Europe and now we wont be told by either the law or the British Parliament . What do you want?
A happy medium would have been both sides having a say. Before the unions didn't listen. Now the unions don't get a say. And they are on the side of us. The worker. So the man on the street has lost his say. How can that be good?Its all about costs.
A happy medium would have meant subsidising failing industries.
I'm sorry SBK but think your wide of the mark there mate. The future IS our young ones I'm afraid. Young people aren't ungrateful what the older generation have done in years gone by, in world wars and others before that. But young people have got to live in the world we are shaping now and for the years to come. To call them cunts is wrong and out of order because they will be looking after 'the oldies' in the years to come in lots of ways, whether in health or just helping them cross the road.
Unfortunately we are all told what to do whether by Europe, UK, politicians, police or even our better halves. What people seem to quickly forget is the benefits of Europe and would rather focus on things like immigration like it's a bad thing when in actual fact it's done a lot to aid the economy amongst other things.
Apologies for the "C**ts" remark, but My father and grandfathers didn't fight for freedom only to have it thrown away by todays youth. Yes, I do understand that todays children are tomorrows future but "Self Governance" is the way forward. Our laws are being overuled by the EU. Our Identity is being stifled into non existence, and our religion and culture is being undermined by EU led dominance that is forced onto our own Government.... We are no longer allowed to help a business(State aid) We are standing by while whole Multi-Billion pound businesses are being closed and moved to other Countries leaving no work for our own Countrymen. Yet people let it all happen. WHY?
Apologies for the "C**ts" remark, but My father and grandfathers didn't fight for freedom only to have it thrown away by todays youth. Yes, I do understand that todays children are tomorrows future but "Self Governance" is the way forward. Our laws are being overuled by the EU. Our Identity is being stifled into non existence, and our religion and culture is being undermined by EU led dominance that is forced onto our own Government.... We are no longer allowed to help a business(State aid) We are standing by while whole Multi-Billion pound businesses are being closed and moved to other Countries leaving no work for our own Countrymen. Yet people let it all happen. WHY?
I could counter with the argument that my Grandfathers fought too ,only to have it thrown away by their children (not their grandchildren when you look at the demographic of the vote). Its not been 20 years since the last european war combined with ethnic cleansing fought by states with self interest at heart. They are now mostly part of the EU and co-existing and trading with each other. Still tension but not war!
I dont think it is the EU thats stifling our religion and culture, that is a free choice enshrined in EU legislation and human rights which our government are looking to repeal.
With regards to your point about protectionist state aid well thats illegal within the EU (a point that our owners are pressing) and it allows us to sell Jaguars, Fords and Nissans etc.. and financial services to the rest of Europe as there are one set of rules for all. Thats the point.
I could counter with the argument that my Grandfathers fought too ,only to have it thrown away by their children (not their grandchildren when you look at the demographic of the vote). Its not been 20 years since the last european war combined with ethnic cleansing fought by states with self interest at heart. They are now mostly part of the EU and co-existing and trading with each other. Still tension but not war!
I dont think it is the EU thats stifling our religion and culture, that is a free choice enshrined in EU legislation and human rights which our government are looking to repeal.
With regards to your point about protectionist state aid well thats illegal within the EU (a point that our owners are pressing) and it allows us to sell Jaguars, Fords and Nissans etc.. and financial services to the rest of Europe as there are one set of rules for all. Thats the point.
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