Clutching at straws (1 Viewer)

[Grendel]

If anyone thinks the football club are in a strong bargaining position regarding a new agreement they are seriously deluded.

At present our contribution to revenue for wasps is very small and the total contribution to EBIT even worse given the catering deal.

There is little benefit to the club being there.

We will have primacy over fixtures still and represent their only threat to the customer base and potential customer base.

It is a unique arrangement - the club with largest potential earnings being the tenant and the club at its maximum the owner.

Naming rights is a other thing. It's going to be irrelevant anyway I would think as surely even wasps will get a sponsor in two years but even if they didn't then why would they share any potential earnings. A premier league club typically attracts between £0.6m to £2m a year. If they can receive that why would they share it? Same for advertising and the same for parking and the same for non match day events. Whatever the draw of it's respective tenants ACL will always be the beneficiary.

We will be saddled with a higher rent and no further benefits. A nightmare scenario.

The nightmare gets bleaker when you look at the time scale. The club has only 2 years left, no new ground by then. So wasps can sharpen their pencils and offer a take it or leave it deal in the grand way their ACL forefathers did.

There is no way forward and the club if it signed the arrangement would then be unsalable. No assets and if promoted no commercial benefits every other club would receive. Sisu forever then.

Turn this round. If sisu were running wasps what would they do to someone in our position. Make no mistake wasps are sisu magnified a thousand times. Ruthless and purely interested on their mission statement.

Those who believe we have any future at the Ricoh are truly clutching at straws and yes we are still drowning.

 

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[Deleted member 5849]

They promised us miracles, and the whistle still blow. Broken promises, but the whistle still blows.

 

[Philosoraptor]

I think this is very untested ground. A club at its maximum can only go down.

 

[Grendel]

I think this is very untested ground. A club at its maximum can only go down.

In which case you'd argue our only hope is the continuation of legal action.

 

[Philosoraptor]

In which case you'd argue our only hope is the continuation of legal action.

I never said that.

 

[Grendel]

I never said that.

No you didn't but wasps will not go in two years so how else can the club continue to stay beyond the current period? It's only card is court action. What else does it actually have?

 

[Philosoraptor]

The problem your may be having is putting a time frame on it.

 

[shmmeee]

We were in a fairly strong position until we took our ball and went to Northampton's home. The wannabe Alan Sugars on here thought it was a brilliant plan to strengthen our hand IIRC.

Building a stadium is a very different proposition to negotiating debt or corporate takeovers, Sisu should've realised their own limitations early on. Only got themselves to blame for where they are now.

 

[Grendel]

We were in a fairly strong position until we took our ball and went to Northampton's home. The wannabe Alan Sugars on here thought it was a brilliant plan to strengthen our hand IIRC.

Building a stadium is a very different proposition to negotiating debt or corporate takeovers, Sisu should've realised their own limitations early on. Only got themselves to blame for where they are now.

So you supported the non payment of rent then?

 

[Covstu]

If anyone thinks the football club are in a strong bargaining position regarding a new agreement they are seriously deluded.

At present our contribution to revenue for wasps is very small and the total contribution to EBIT even worse given the catering deal.

There is little benefit to the club being there.

We will have primacy over fixtures still and represent their only threat to the customer base and potential customer base.

It is a unique arrangement - the club with largest potential earnings being the tenant and the club at its maximum the owner.

Naming rights is a other thing. It's going to be irrelevant anyway I would think as surely even wasps will get a sponsor in two years but even if they didn't then why would they share any potential earnings. A premier league club typically attracts between £0.6m to £2m a year. If they can receive that why would they share it? Same for advertising and the same for parking and the same for non match day events. Whatever the draw of it's respective tenants ACL will always be the beneficiary.

We will be saddled with a higher rent and no further benefits. A nightmare scenario.

The nightmare gets bleaker when you look at the time scale. The club has only 2 years left, no new ground by then. So wasps can sharpen their pencils and offer a take it or leave it deal in the grand way their ACL forefathers did.

There is no way forward and the club if it signed the arrangement would then be unsalable. No assets and if promoted no commercial benefits every other club would receive. Sisu forever then.

Turn this round. If sisu were running wasps what would they do to someone in our position. Make no mistake wasps are sisu magnified a thousand times. Ruthless and purely interested on their mission statement.

Those who believe we have any future at the Ricoh are truly clutching at straws and yes we are still drowning.

Agree but it's also the continual feeling that this isn't our home and season on season this will continue to increase. We need a place to call home

 

[Hobo]

SISU royally fucked up. Have dragged their heels ever since they got here.

Still there is always the court of appeal of the court of appeal of the court of appeal...can't wait.

How's those two heads of terms going Timmy old chap?

 

[Philosoraptor]

I think the more interesting thing from what's gone on recently is the question about the Academy rather than the question about the stadium.

They do seem to be both linked.

 

[italiahorse]

Or drop the court case and get the best deal they can before they really do piss Wasps off with JR2.
We have one option left so they might as well get the best they can from that option.
Whether it's enough remains to be seen but we have to give it a go.

Love it how the Sisu mouth piece keeps slamming the Ricoh but has no feasible solution other than to leave it.

 

[Grendel]

Or drop the court case and get the best deal they can before they really do piss Wasps off with JR2.
We have one option left so they might as well get the best they can from that option.
Whether it's enough remains to be seen but we have to give it a go.

Love it how the Sisu mouth piece keeps slamming the Ricoh but has no feasible solution other than to leave it.

Given the factors I gave illustrated above and given wasps utter disregard for community values can you actually explain why they would give one inch on anything?

 

[italiahorse]

I think the more interesting thing from what's gone on recently is the question about the Academy rather than the question about the stadium.

They do seem to be both linked.

Sisu messing around by pulling out of the complex and then doing short term deals whilst saying they are building their own allows these organisations to plan their futures without us. Another mess they have put the club in.

One day they will realise that you can't batter people with no ammunition.

 

[italiahorse]

Given the factors I gave illustrated above and given wasps utter disregard for community values can you actually explain why they would give one inch on anything?

So they can cream it off when we are in the PL. A 50% deal won't look so bad then will it ?

 

[Moff]

Or drop the court case and get the best deal they can before they really do piss Wasps off with JR2.
We have one option left so they might as well get the best they can from that option.

What if the best deal is peanuts, and only enough to sutain us as a mediocre League One or even League two team. Is that what you truly aspire to?

 

[italiahorse]

What if the best deal is peanuts, and only enough to sutain us as a mediocre League One or even League two team. Is that what you truly aspire to?

It would look like someone else has taken revenge on Sisu?

To be honest I can't see any option yet better than the Ricoh. I suspect Wasps know that also.
We have no idea what the deal offered by Wasps will be in 2 years time, but I do know that if Sisu piss them off it won't be as good as it could be.

 

[Grendel]

So they can cream it off when we are in the PL. A 50% deal won't look so bad then will it ?

So sisu would offer 50% would they? Why when they can get 100%?

Are they a charity? Given they were prepared to move 90 miles even if not one fan followed them I don't think so.

Wakey wakey.

 

[Philosoraptor]

I think both factions have previous in this respect.

 

[italiahorse]

So sisu would offer 50% would they? Why when they can get 100%?

Are they a charity? Given they were prepared to move 90 miles even if not one fan followed them I don't think so.

Wakey wakey.

Wasps obviously did their homework when they made the decision to move here. Something your minions never did.

Whatever you say, they are businessmen and not stupid.
They will know that CCFC in the PL is a big bonus for them.The art is to make it sweet for CCFC to have a chance of getting there.
But why should they give it the time of day if Sisu are hell bent on doing everything but.

 

[Philosoraptor]

Make you think about all the fans they left back in London..

 

[shy_tall_knight]

Grendel this post is, it is just a rant to support the ever failing SISU
"There is little benefit to the club being there." There area few benefits, it is in Coventry and not Northampton and has a capacity that exceeds our average crowds.
"as surely even wasps will get a sponsor in two years" - I hate WASPS but they as a top rugby club are a bigger commercial draw than a mid-table League 1 football club a petty dig at WASPS
The nightmare scenario - do you ever apportion blame at SISU or is it always CCC & WASPS, operation Sixfields own goal helped create this but we have JR2 to look forward to

 

[armybike]

Let's not forget -

"City’s chief executive, Tim Fisher, insists they do not regret failing to buy the Ricoh, saying they could not agree to taking it on, as Wasps have done, not only for £5.4m but with the council’s £14m loan on the stadium still to pay. Fisher acknowledged the widespread scepticism at Sisu’s claim it will build a new stadium but said the company has recently made “giant strides” towards completing on land “on the outskirts of Coventry”, at a location yet to be revealed. Fisher said Sisu is not “playing a game” but genuinely planning to build the stadium, while enabling commercial development that will make it financially viable and produce year-round income.

“The scepticism is misplaced,” Fisher said. “We are moving the club to a self-sustaining model and are looking to grow, in a new stadium where we will have our own matchday and non-matchday revenues.”"

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/dec/23/coventry-city-wasps-ricoh-arena

 

[stupot07]

Wasps obviously did their homework when they made the decision to move here. Something your minions never did.

Whatever you say, they are businessmen and not stupid.
They will know that CCFC in the PL is a big bonus for them.The art is to make it sweet for CCFC to have a chance of getting there.
But why should they give it the time of day if Sisu are hell bent on doing everything but.

Absolute tosh. Wasps will make no deal based on the idea that one day we may or may not get back to the PL. They cannot afford to give us what we need, they have their own financial pressures and business model.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[Kingokings204]

Let's also not forget and I quote:

"The Football Club had been seriously mismanaged. By April 2012, it was in a truly parlous state. CCFC was balance sheet insolvent, incurring regular substantial annual losses, and a loss of £5m on the annual turnover of £10m in 2011-12.

CCFC/SISU had no strategy for maintaining a sustainable football club, except one which involved (i) the purchase, at a knock down price, of at least a 50% share in ACL and thus the Arena, and (ii) the purchase from the Bank, at a knockdown price, of the ACL loan.

SISU distressed the financial position of ACL [in which Coventry Council had a stake] by refusing to pay ACL any rent or licence fee. That made ACL commercially vulnerable, because it could not service its Bank loan. It also had the effect of reducing the value of the share in ACL that SISU coveted. SISU imposed more commercial pressure on ACL by indicating that they were prepared to see CCFC put into administration or liquidation, which (SISU believed) would have a cataclysmic effect on ACL because of ACL’s inability to service its loan without revenue from the Football Club. SISU’s strategy of distressing ACL’s financial position in these ways was quite deliberate.

In April 2012, the crisis in ACL was triggered by CCFC/SISU refusing to pay rent which CCFC was legally obliged to pay, in pursuit of the SISU strategy to obtain a return on their investment by buying into ACL cheaply. SISU took that action quite deliberately to distress ACL’s financial position, with a view to driving down the value of ACL and thus the price of a share in it, which they coveted."

Can't really argue with that.

 

[Grendel]

Let's also not forget and I quote:

"The Football Club had been seriously mismanaged. By April 2012, it was in a truly parlous state. CCFC was balance sheet insolvent, incurring regular substantial annual losses, and a loss of £5m on the annual turnover of £10m in 2011-12.

CCFC/SISU had no strategy for maintaining a sustainable football club, except one which involved (i) the purchase, at a knock down price, of at least a 50% share in ACL and thus the Arena, and (ii) the purchase from the Bank, at a knockdown price, of the ACL loan.

SISU distressed the financial position of ACL [in which Coventry Council had a stake] by refusing to pay ACL any rent or licence fee. That made ACL commercially vulnerable, because it could not service its Bank loan. It also had the effect of reducing the value of the share in ACL that SISU coveted. SISU imposed more commercial pressure on ACL by indicating that they were prepared to see CCFC put into administration or liquidation, which (SISU believed) would have a cataclysmic effect on ACL because of ACL’s inability to service its loan without revenue from the Football Club. SISU’s strategy of distressing ACL’s financial position in these ways was quite deliberate.

In April 2012, the crisis in ACL was triggered by CCFC/SISU refusing to pay rent which CCFC was legally obliged to pay, in pursuit of the SISU strategy to obtain a return on their investment by buying into ACL cheaply. SISU took that action quite deliberately to distress ACL’s financial position, with a view to driving down the value of ACL and thus the price of a share in it, which they coveted."

Can't really argue with that.

What exactly has any of that got to do with anything regarding my opening post?

 

[Kingokings204]

What exactly has any of that got to do with anything regarding my opening post?

Tbf in your OP there was no questions just your opinion on the current situation.

The conversation was developed as these things do and there we are.

I do agree with you though that the future looks bleak and in two years we are homeless. Not very good for stability and the future I quite agree.

That's why so many threads on here are about BPA and what have you because it looks so bleak and nothing is being done. We are clutching at straws I guess.

 

[olderskyblue]

Turn this round. If sisu were running wasps what would they do to someone in our position.

Makes you wonder what they will do to CRFC if any deal for the Butts actually happens...

 

[martcov]

Makes you wonder what they will do to CRFC if any deal for the Butts actually happens...

You could argue that Rugby JS is well aware of how SISU operate by now. He also knows our predicament as much as we do. He wants help financing his stadium, but he will - because according to his CV as posted by old fiver he seems to be very smart - protect himself against future bullying by SISU. CCFC may be homeless in 2 years, so he ( the Rugby Club ) has a strong hand when it comes to doing a deal - if Wasps drop us completely or SISU pull out of negotiations with Wasps.

 

[skybluetony176]

Let's also not forget and I quote:

"The Football Club had been seriously mismanaged. By April 2012, it was in a truly parlous state. CCFC was balance sheet insolvent, incurring regular substantial annual losses, and a loss of £5m on the annual turnover of £10m in 2011-12.

CCFC/SISU had no strategy for maintaining a sustainable football club, except one which involved (i) the purchase, at a knock down price, of at least a 50% share in ACL and thus the Arena, and (ii) the purchase from the Bank, at a knockdown price, of the ACL loan.

SISU distressed the financial position of ACL [in which Coventry Council had a stake] by refusing to pay ACL any rent or licence fee. That made ACL commercially vulnerable, because it could not service its Bank loan. It also had the effect of reducing the value of the share in ACL that SISU coveted. SISU imposed more commercial pressure on ACL by indicating that they were prepared to see CCFC put into administration or liquidation, which (SISU believed) would have a cataclysmic effect on ACL because of ACL’s inability to service its loan without revenue from the Football Club. SISU’s strategy of distressing ACL’s financial position in these ways was quite deliberate.

In April 2012, the crisis in ACL was triggered by CCFC/SISU refusing to pay rent which CCFC was legally obliged to pay, in pursuit of the SISU strategy to obtain a return on their investment by buying into ACL cheaply. SISU took that action quite deliberately to distress ACL’s financial position, with a view to driving down the value of ACL and thus the price of a share in it, which they coveted."

Can't really argue with that.

Which leads you to the conclusion that they really never had any money to buy ACL as they never ever bid the council. If Wasps underpaid for it it still wasn't cheap enough for SISU. All the evidence suggests that they wanted for nothing or as near as. No wonder they never got it, it was a doomed strategy from the start.

 

[dongonzalos]

Unfortunately Grendel
Wholeheartedly encouraged the fractious approach to rental discussions and when it is alleged we finally agreed then changed our minds.
He whole heartily encouraged the club not to agree and keep pushing for more and more.
He supported the idea of putting ACL out of business and picking it up for next to nothing.
After initially disagreeing with the Northampton move he eventually agreed with that tactic.
In reply to the council saying make us an offer by January or we are going elsewhere. You scoffed and said words to the effect of there is no one else keep holding out !!! (Brilliant)
He completely believes that any decision SISU make if it is in the best interests for them will naturally be in the best interests for the club.
He supports the taking of the legal action despite himself saying SISU probably won't win.
He encourages any action by SISU that antagonises the council for little or no pay off in return.
Then supports a plan that will require the support and help of the very same council, you couldn't write it really.
He fails time and time again to see that SISU can actually make a decision that is not the best one for the club, but is better for SISU as a company as a whole.
So sorry Grendel seeing how your recommendations so far have panned out.
(Ie we could be paying a reasonable rent right now and be finalising buying ACL. If we had seen that deal through back then)
I am a little scepticle of your judgement and opinions as they are constantly proved to be flawed over time.

 

[Captain Dart]

Unfortunately Grendel
am a little scepticle of your judgement and opinions as they are constantly proved to be flawed over time.

Its alight he makes up for poor judgement by impressive social skills. :wtf: