Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (266 Viewers)

[COV]

Another huge issue had already rocked public confidence. On 25 January, a German-language business newspaper, Handelsblatt, ran a front-page story. “AstraZeneca vaccine apparently hardly effective in seniors,” said the headline. Efficacy in the over-65s, the age group most at risk of dying from Covid, was only 8%, the article claimed..

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Handelsblatt’s sources were not in the German government. Its journalists had been speaking to regulators and vaccine advisers. The figure turned out to be inaccurate – and taken out of context.

There were too few elderly people in the early trials, because the Oxford academics did not want to expose them to risks. And if you have too few people in a trial, the results you get are not reliable. There was simply not enough evidence to prove how well the vaccine worked in the over-65s.

Handelsblatt acknowledged that there was too little data, but that was lost in the ensuing row.

Within days, Stiko, Germany’s vaccination advisory panel, said it would not recommend the vaccine for the over-65s because of the lack of evidence that it worked for them. In France, President Macron said the jab was “quasi-ineffective” in the over-65s.

Within weeks, Macron was forced to say publicly that he would have the jab himself – and by early March it had been approved by France for the over-65s. But the damage had been done.

Bell says you can get only limited data from vaccine trials – you have to see what happens “in the real world. The studies are different, the clinical trial populations are different, the type of virus that people are being exposed to is different. The outcomes are all different”.

“And yet throughout Europe we had lots of these little so-called expert committees saying: ‘Oh God, you can’t use it in the over-50s, oh God, you can’t use it in the under-50s. You can’t use it at all. Well, maybe you could use it if you’re upside down, drinking a milkshake.’ It was unbelievable.”

Real-world data eventually proved that the vaccine worked very well in older people. But it also revealed a serious problem in a tiny minority of younger people. On 7 March, Austria suspended the use of a batch of the vaccine aftera woman of 49 died and another aged 35 became seriously ill with blood disorders shortly after inoculation.

As Covid cases continued to surge,the European Medicines Agency (EMA) said the benefits outweighed the risks, but launched an investigation.

Prof Marie Scully’s first case was admitted to University College hospital, London, in the UK on the weekend of 6-7 March. A young, healthy woman in her 30s had blood clots on the brain and low platelets. “It was most unusual,” said Scully, a consultant haematologist. “We use vaccines all our life. Why would the AZ vaccine suddenly cause this situation?”

But it did, the EMA and MHRA eventually ruled, albeit in only four in a million cases. It was enough for many European countries to restrict the vaccine’s use.

christ, we’re onto this flag waving nationalist stuff

 

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[Grendel]

christ, we’re onto this flag waving nationalist stuff

Its an extract from an article in the Guardian

 

[wingy]

As Dog says though there’s one thing hoarding, which appears to have happened in US and Europe, there’s another claiming a vaccine is quasi effective/may not work

But there is evidence,no?

 

[CCFCSteve]

But there is evidence,no?

Evidence that AZ doesn’t work ?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

But there is evidence,no?

There isn’t no

 

[wingy]

Evidence that AZ doesn’t work ?

That it's less effective among the old,basing that on evidence it doesn't generate as high level of antibodies ,as evidenced,or also the presentation of the original data from the initial studies/trials.
Wording from him possibly questionable but based on these I think.

 

[wingy]

There isn’t no

There is.

 

[Grendel]

That it's less effective among the old,basing that on evidence it doesn't generate as high level of antibodies ,as evidenced,or also the presentation of the original data from the initial studies/trials.
Wording from him possibly questionable but based on these I think.

No he based it on the German article which focussed on the fact that it hadn't tested many in a specific age group - the evidence is very clear from the amount now dying vs infections its as effective as the studies proved

 

[wingy]

No he based it on the German article which focussed on the fact that it hadn't tested many in a specific age group - the evidence is very clear from the amount now dying vs infections its as effective as the studies proved

Yes we can see that now but not necessarily back then.

 

[shmmeee]

Those defending the US are forgetting this it seems:

Fauci apologises for saying UK 'rushed' vaccine

After apparent criticism from the US expert, the UK defended the safety and efficacy of the vaccine.

www.bbc.com

Let’s not pretend this was some evil EU thing. Not everything is Brexit.

 

[COV]

Those defending the US are forgetting this it seems:

Fauci apologises for saying UK 'rushed' vaccine

After apparent criticism from the US expert, the UK defended the safety and efficacy of the vaccine.

www.bbc.com

Let’s not pretend this was some evil EU thing. Not everything is Brexit.

amazing how literally everything gets spun into “those nasty Europeans v us”

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Those defending the US are forgetting this it seems:

Fauci apologises for saying UK 'rushed' vaccine

After apparent criticism from the US expert, the UK defended the safety and efficacy of the vaccine.

www.bbc.com

Let’s not pretend this was some evil EU thing. Not everything is Brexit.

There's also a difference between the no evidence it works (normal not to use in those instances) and the active negative, where Macron was indeed unhelpful. Of course, Merkel took the AZ one herself, so it's not 'Europe' per se. We also no longer use in under 40s, because of perceived risks.

And it's those which, to an outsider (and some insiders, who started waiting for Pfizer before getting their jab!) end up with a reluctance in certain overseas countries to use it.

I'm not defending that, but that is how it is. It may be slightly radical, but I'm not convinced openness and transparency about things like the blood clotting risk is helpful. It's a small risk, smaller than certain everyday medicines, but it's been played out in public and therefore undermines confidence. If we, then, stop using AZ for under 40s, it can indeed make the rest of the world think they have our cast-offs.

Which in the long run, is more of a risk than the clotting risk!

 

[CCFCSteve]

That it's less effective among the old,basing that on evidence it doesn't generate as high level of antibodies ,as evidenced,or also the presentation of the original data from the initial studies/trials.
Wording from him possibly questionable but based on these I think.

From memory his comments were based on a misunderstanding of the data reports. Whether he had ulterior motives as well I’m not sure. Basically at the time there wasn’t the same level of trials undertaken for oldest age groups ie the data just wants there. This was jumped on by a paper (*German I think) and then subsequently by Macron saying the data suggests it doesn’t work as well for old people, when it was just that the data wasn’t there support a view either way. Various scientists and JVCI said there is no reason why it wouldn’t work as well across all age groups. This wasn’t a comparison between vaccine, just talking about AZ

Subsequently, I think Pfizer has proven to be stronger, particularly against Delta variant, which wasn’t around at the time of those comments, however, both vaccines have proven to protect nearly everyone (90%+) from severe illness or death

*Edit - not blaming the Germans before anyone gets upset, was just commenting from memory that that’s where the newspaper that reported the misinformation was from. Just seen Grendels post which I talks about same thing

 

[Grendel]

amazing how literally everything gets spun into “those nasty Europeans v us”

Amazing how you think the Guardian health editor is a tub thumping nationalist

I did ask was Macron talking bullshit - amazing you have not answered

Amazing how you appear on a thread when a EU negative is thrown out and then hide (or change username) when the going gets tough

Was your previous username Ring of Steel? The pro EU advocate who said England (not Britain) was a deeply racist country?

 

[CCFCSteve]

Those defending the US are forgetting this it seems:

Fauci apologises for saying UK 'rushed' vaccine

After apparent criticism from the US expert, the UK defended the safety and efficacy of the vaccine.

www.bbc.com

Let’s not pretend this was some evil EU thing. Not everything is Brexit.

Not sure anyone’s defended the US Shmmeee ? I said their conduct was questionable at the same time as commenting on Macron. Everyone then jumped in to say ‘yeah, but US is worse’…I think the behaviour of both has been pretty disgusting

 

[wingy]

I think without being a heretic you also have to factor in onwards transmission ,which I doubt very much was what Macron was basing it on as the evidence wasn't there for that .
Don't know how it's stacking up currently but the initial pzhiser data out of Israel was extremely favourably solid.

 

[wingy]

Not sure anyone’s defended the US Shmmeee ? I said their conduct was questionable at the same time as commenting on Macron. Everyone then jumped in to say ‘yeah, but US is worse’…I think the behaviour of both has been pretty disgusting

You did.

 

[Dog]

Struggling to see how denying people access to the vaccine isn’t worse than people talking crap about the vaccine

Have they been denied the vaccines?

Don't you understand that Macron trying to make out the AZ didn't work made countless countries not give it out. Their people don't trust it because of Macron. Yet at the same time the makers of AZ were being threatened with court for not supplying what they said was promised (although it looks like it wasn't).

Lies from politicians is the norm these days. But this one has cost countless lives. Yet those who have a go at the anti vaxers then defend those who give out false information about vaccines if they are a politician they are aligned with. It happens on all sides. Some even try to defend Boris for everything he does.

It is like saying Pol Pot is OK because Hitler killed more.

 

[CCFCSteve]

There's also a difference between the no evidence it works (normal not to use in those instances) and the active negative, where Macron was indeed unhelpful. Of course, Merkel took the AZ one herself, so it's not 'Europe' per se. We also no longer use in under 40s, because of perceived risks.

And it's those which, to an outsider (and some insiders, who started waiting for Pfizer before getting their jab!) end up with a reluctance in certain overseas countries to use it.

I'm not defending that, but that is how it is. It may be slightly radical, but I'm not convinced openness and transparency about things like the blood clotting risk is helpful. It's a small risk, smaller than certain everyday medicines, but it's been played out in public and therefore undermines confidence. If we, then, stop using AZ for under 40s, it can indeed make the rest of the world think they have our cast-offs.

Which in the long run, is more of a risk than the clotting risk!

Agree about the clotting risk being played out and the messaging never really recovering, even when everyone tried to say that the risk from getting covid was far greater. This has just been jumped on by the nutters as well

Merkel took AZ first and then Moderna second, which probably didn’t really help. But I have no real issue with that as it’s personal choice and she’s got to do what’s right for her. I think my original point about the AZ misinformation stands, it’s been extremely harmful

 

[wingy]

christ, we’re onto this flag waving nationalist stuff

I don't think this is ,it reads like a rational debrief on what actually happened .

 

[CCFCSteve]

You did.

Defend US or question their conduct ? Hopefully you meant the later as I can’t defend US conduct with regard to the vaccines (and hopefully it didn’t come across that way)

 

[Grendel]

I assume “COV”’ will reappear with another username shortly

 

[COV]

Agree about the clotting risk being played out and the messaging never really recovering, even when everyone tried to say that the risk from getting covid was far greater. This has just been jumped on by the nutters as well

Merkel took AZ first and then Moderna second, which probably didn’t really help. But I have no real issue with that as it’s personal choice and she’s got to do what’s right for her. I think my original point about the AZ misinformation stands, it’s been extremely harmful

not as harmful as actually withholding the vaccine

 

[Dog]

not as harmful as actually withholding the vaccine

Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine: which countries have paused jab and why

Analysis: Germany, France, Spain and Italy head an expanding list of EU countries to have put its use on hold

www.theguardian.com

 

[COV]

Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine: which countries have paused jab and why

Analysis: Germany, France, Spain and Italy head an expanding list of EU countries to have put its use on hold

www.theguardian.com

Ok so what am I missing here. I thought that the USA were stockpiling vaccine meaning that other countries were missing out. This is telling me that some other countries have paused the AZ vaccine due to real/ imaginary concerns- but people are still getting vaccinated so they’re not stockpiling. Have I got that wrong?

 

[Dog]

Ok so what am I missing here. I thought that the USA were stockpiling vaccine meaning that other countries were missing out. This is telling me that some other countries have paused the AZ vaccine due to real/ imaginary concerns- but people are still getting vaccinated so they’re not stockpiling. Have I got that wrong?

So it is disgusting to withhold the vaccine unless you are an EU country?

And Macron was a massive part of countries withholding vaccinations after saying that the AZ vaccine didn't work. And he carried on saying so even when corrected by his medical officers.

 

[skybluetony176]

And he carried on saying so even when corrected

Sounds like an ideal candidate for the Tory party.

 

[Grendel]

Ok so what am I missing here. I thought that the USA were stockpiling vaccine meaning that other countries were missing out. This is telling me that some other countries have paused the AZ vaccine due to real/ imaginary concerns- but people are still getting vaccinated so they’re not stockpiling. Have I got that wrong?

was macron bullshitting?

I think the forum deserves an answer now

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

First time really affected other than helping as an nhs volunteer.

Both daughters positive. 10 days isolation for the rest of us to Sunday initially and then to Wednesday after second positive test. Hoping the rules will change about isolation on Monday for household close contacts as well as other close contacts

So missed a weeks singing holiday and won’t get to Devon till maybe later and potentially at all

Sister and nephew poorly now and sister has had both vaccines.

Mum and other sister isolating so a bit shit really

Good friend just died of cancer too so bit meh. Thanks for asking

Take care mate. Hopefully a few more days and things will start to look a bit brighter.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Take care mate. Hopefully a few more days and things will start to look a bit brighter.

Thanks mate

 

[shmmeee]

Not sure anyone’s defended the US Shmmeee ? I said their conduct was questionable at the same time as commenting on Macron. Everyone then jumped in to say ‘yeah, but US is worse’…I think the behaviour of both has been pretty disgusting

Canada too IIRC. Lots of silly nationalism going around. We have some of the blame of course by insisting it’s branded the Oxford vaccine.

 

[Dog]

Canada too IIRC. Lots of silly nationalism going around. We have some of the blame of course by insisting it’s branded the Oxford vaccine.

Should have called it the Independent UK vaccine. That would have gone down well

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Are numbers of tests on the way up again ?

 

[David O'Day]

Are numbers of tests on the way up again ?

Not really

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/testing

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Not really

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/testing

Sorry meant positive tests. Thought last Thursday it was under 30000