Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (258 Viewers)

Ian1779 · Jul 9, 2020

fernandopartridge said:
Anyway, Labour under Starmer has walked into an easy Tory trap. These utterly stupid centrists trying to appeal to people like them.

Labours issue now is that whilst they are trying to appeal to people that don’t vote for them - moderate Tories and centrists (on the face of it making some sense) they are now alienating the core base of their vote that stuck with them in 2019. No point in gaining moderates and centrists because you have an ‘electable’ face if you then lose the others. At the moment we just appear to be heading straight back to 2010-15 with no awareness of why the party was so shit then and no plan. Starmer was supposed to take the good aspects of the Corbyn era (and there was some) and build on them to become an electable force.... there needs to be something more radical economically to get the country back on its feet.

chiefdave · Jul 9, 2020

David O'Day said:
Indoor performance spaces still shut, you can socially distance there easily but I guess they don't have the lobby weight that pubs do

A big issue here is not only they can't open but they haven't been given a date. A lot of theatres rely on pantos to get them through the year financially and they should be prepping for those now but still don't know if they'll be open so can't get tickets on sale.

shmmeee · Jul 9, 2020

Ian1779 said:
Labours issue now is that whilst they are trying to appeal to people that don’t vote for them - moderate Tories and centrists (on the face of it making some sense) they are now alienating the core base of their vote that stuck with them in 2019. No point in gaining moderates and centrists because you have an ‘electable’ face if you then lose the others. At the moment we just appear to be heading straight back to 2010-15 with no awareness of why the party was so shit then and no plan. Starmer was supposed to take the good aspects of the Corbyn era (and there was some) and build on them to become an electable force.... there needs to be something more radical economically to get the country back on its feet.

Except there is. A vote taken from the Tories, especially in a Lab/Con marginal, is worth twice as much as a vote lost in a safe seat, if not more.

I completely agree we need a radical economic agenda, if only we hadn’t just associated that sort of agenda with Corbyn, who the public hate. Now it’s virtually impossible to raise that without resurrecting the ghost of Corbyn at the same time. I’m not sure you appreciate just how toxic he became with voters. He’s probably set back the left by decades.

David O'Day · Jul 9, 2020

fernandopartridge said:
The trap that it appears Labour don't want to help (even if that isn't the case) +. Labour need to tell them it isn't going anywhere near far enough, not about what HMRC say. The public don't care about HMRC. I'm really not sure who this line is trying to appeal to.

The public do care that the scheme is just giving money to rich people and companies that don't need it while large sectors of the economy get nothing. It appeals to those who still have got nothing from the government and those who's jobs are still on a knife edge.

There is no trap, not even the tories think they have caught Labour in a trap.

Ian1779 · Jul 9, 2020

shmmeee said:
Except there is. A vote taken from the Tories, especially in a Lab/Con marginal, is worth twice as much as a vote lost in a safe seat, if not more.

I completely agree we need a radical economic agenda, if only we hadn’t just associated that sort of agenda with Corbyn, who the public hate. Now it’s virtually impossible to raise that without resurrecting the ghost of Corbyn at the same time. I’m not sure you appreciate just how toxic he became with voters. He’s probably set back the left by decades.

Corbyn toxicity with voters stemmed from Brexit and the decision to pursue the PV (championed by Starmer no less) - it allowed the Tories to pin on him that he didn’t respect democracy. To their credit they executed that with aplomb, and once they had that embedded they could chuck anything and everything and it would stick. But the Tories are now rolling out their version of Socialism 2.0 and Labour aren’t even making a noise to say that these are things that sit front and centre of a Labour economic manifesto. Instead they’re too busy alienating BAME voters and members that are deserting the party. What next? The youth vote because we row back on affordable housing or green issues?

They are in danger of being outflanked on the left by the Lib Dems who have finally realised that their success under Kennedy in early 2000’s came from being in the left side of the centre whilst still holding some conservative values in terms of social justice (something you raise frequently) - this would also appeal to former red wall voters that switched because of Brexit stance.

To take seats in Scotland we need to appeal to those that vote SNP not Tory... and without Scotland I see no way back. Labour should shout loud about it’s left values, it’s not something to be embarrassed about and despite getting thumped they still got over 10m votes don’t their is appetite for it.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Jul 9, 2020

Ian1779 said:
Labours issue now is that whilst they are trying to appeal to people that don’t vote for them - moderate Tories and centrists (on the face of it making some sense) they are now alienating the core base of their vote that stuck with them in 2019. No point in gaining moderates and centrists because you have an ‘electable’ face if you then lose the others. At the moment we just appear to be heading straight back to 2010-15 with no awareness of why the party was so shit then and no plan. Starmer was supposed to take the good aspects of the Corbyn era (and there was some) and build on them to become an electable force.... there needs to be something more radical economically to get the country back on its feet.

Surely it depends on the difference. If you gain more centrists than you lose lefties it's worthwhile.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Jul 9, 2020

chiefdave said:
A big issue here is not only they can't open but they haven't been given a date. A lot of theatres rely on pantos to get them through the year financially and they should be prepping for those now but still don't know if they'll be open so can't get tickets on sale.

Even if they can open soon if the winter wave occurs they're fucked. If they have to shut again during their most profitable time of year they're going to struggle way more than now. Even with a restricted crowd they'll suffer. Used to playing to big crowds two times a day for a month or so and they end up with nothing. Massive financial hit compared to a dozen people watching Kafka in the summer for two or three nights.

Ian1779 · Jul 9, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Surely it depends on the difference. If you gain more centrists than you lose lefties it's worthwhile.

Depends where they in terms of geographical location. I might be wrong, but I feel that centrists and lefties often occupy the same areas (London and big metropolitan conurbations) - and I’m unconvinced that northern constituencies are full of centrists.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Jul 9, 2020

Ian1779 said:
Depends where they in terms of geographical location. I might be wrong, but I feel that centrists and lefties often occupy the same areas (London and big metropolitan conurbations) - and I’m unconvinced that northern constituencies are full of centrists.

So if the leftists and centrists occupy the same areas therefore the righties must all be in the same area too and you think this is where a left-leaning party should focus its efforts? If the north would rather vote for a right wing party that has historically decimated their industries, livelihoods and communities rather than a left wing/centrist party then there's no hope.

Ian1779 · Jul 9, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
So if the leftists and centrists occupy the same areas therefore the righties must all be in the same area too and you think this is where a left-leaning party should focus its efforts? If the north would rather vote for a right wing party that has historically decimated their industries, livelihoods and communities rather than a left wing/centrist party then there's no hope.

Northern Labour voters have been in decline since the end of the 90’s because the party was viewed as too London-centric. 2017 was actually an arrest of this decline and in some areas it started to improve, only to be truly fucked by the Brexit stance.

I know we have gone over this before but I don’t believe abandoning ‘left’ economic policy is going to make anywhere near enough electoral gains. Labour should be all about fairer distribution of economic wealth and it should be championing housing and green initiatives - be radical in this way. If it wants to appeal to the Tory voters then be more ‘British’ on social values. They should have learnt that in 2015 when we couldn’t be deciphered from the Tories.

Brighton Sky Blue · Jul 9, 2020

Ian1779 said:
Northern Labour voters have been in decline since the end of the 90’s because the party was viewed as too London-centric. 2017 was actually an arrest of this decline and in some areas it started to improve, only to be truly fucked by the Brexit stance.

I know we have gone over this before but I don’t believe abandoning ‘left’ economic policy is going to make anywhere near enough electoral gains. Labour should be all about fairer distribution of economic wealth and it should be championing housing and green initiatives - be radical in this way. If it wants to appeal to the Tory voters then be more ‘British’ on social values. They should have learnt that in 2015 when we couldn’t be deciphered from the Tories.

Attacking the Tories from the right is a hopeless battle. Scotland I think is permanently lost because the demographic of voters who are both on the left and unionist is just too small to get more than a handful of seats (in some parts of Glasgow and Edinburgh but that's it). We need economically left and socially conservative messaging in both parts of the country I think.

Ian1779 · Jul 9, 2020

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Attacking the Tories from the right is a hopeless battle. Scotland I think is permanently lost because the demographic of voters who are both on the left and unionist is just too small to get more than a handful of seats (in some parts of Glasgow and Edinburgh but that's it). We need economically left and socially conservative messaging in both parts of the country I think.

I think best case scenario is we could get 10 seats in the places you’ve mentioned. We had 7 in 2017, now only have 1. The way the Tories have handled Cov-ID I think they’ll lose the little seats they have next time round.

Brighton Sky Blue · Jul 9, 2020

Ian1779 said:
I think best case scenario is we could get 10 seats in the places you’ve mentioned. We had 7 in 2017, now only have 1.

I do wish that Ian Murray were given a bigger role in the shadow cabinet. He's always sounded level headed whenever I've heard him speak and I think he gets what's gone wrong better than most as the sole survivor of the 2015 election.

shmmeee · Jul 9, 2020

Ian1779 said:
Corbyn toxicity with voters stemmed from Brexit and the decision to pursue the PV (championed by Starmer no less) - it allowed the Tories to pin on him that he didn’t respect democracy. To their credit they executed that with aplomb, and once they had that embedded they could chuck anything and everything and it would stick. But the Tories are now rolling out their version of Socialism 2.0 and Labour aren’t even making a noise to say that these are things that sit front and centre of a Labour economic manifesto. Instead they’re too busy alienating BAME voters and members that are deserting the party. What next? The youth vote because we row back on affordable housing or green issues?

They are in danger of being outflanked on the left by the Lib Dems who have finally realised that their success under Kennedy in early 2000’s came from being in the left side of the centre whilst still holding some conservative values in terms of social justice (something you raise frequently) - this would also appeal to former red wall voters that switched because of Brexit stance.

To take seats in Scotland we need to appeal to those that vote SNP not Tory... and without Scotland I see no way back. Labour should shout loud about it’s left values, it’s not something to be embarrassed about and despite getting thumped they still got over 10m votes don’t their is appetite for it.

Sorry I couldn’t disagree more. Corbyn was toxic for way more than just Brexit, he was especially toxic to Brexit voters but for non Brexit reasons (terrorism/patriotism mostly) as well as unappealing to remainers (brexit and racism and too left wing).

There’s no evidence of a wide scale BAME exodus over racism and if there was they aren’t going to vote Tory.

The Lib Dem’s do well when we do well, a sensible Labour allows the LDs to soak up soft Tories. They won’t go far left, they may go ultra Liberal, but that’s kinda the point of them. The Lib Dem’s aren’t going to win over Red Wall socially conservative voters as a socially liberal party.

Also Scotland isn’t that left wing and votes SNP because we aren’t a sensible force for government and because of independence. We can win without Scotland but need to make deep inroads into middle England to do it.

We can win if we chill on the culture war, build up the patriotism, and promise to build and create jobs. And look competent. And we can include tax hikes for the very rich (though I’d focus on companies) as well as investment in public services and green tech. We probably won’t see an NES or nationalising all the things, but that’s the price for power. The Tories don’t get all their wet dreams either.

Sky Blue Pete · Jul 10, 2020

Sky Blue Pete · Jul 10, 2020

Sky Blue Pete said:

How he’s not criminally responsible for this I have no idea

clint van damme · Jul 10, 2020

Caroline Dinenage getting rinsed by BBC wet lettuce Charlie Stayt this morning. As is the norm now, totally unprepared to answer the most predictable of questions.
That will be another program added to the list of those they refuse to appear on because of the nasty man asking questions.

skybluetony176 · Jul 10, 2020

Sky Blue Pete said:
How he’s not criminally responsible for this I have no idea

He’s killed more British people than Blair did through the illegal war. By about 44,500 people to be precise. Well, I say precise when I mean by the governments own figures.

clint van damme · Jul 10, 2020

Sky Blue Pete said:

He said in that video he shakes hands with everyone

shmmeee · Jul 10, 2020

clint van damme said:
He said in that video he shakes hands with everyone

Woah

stupot07 · Jul 10, 2020

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

Sky Blue Pete · Jul 10, 2020

stupot07 said:
Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

Just keeps on coming doesn’t it

skybluetony176 · Jul 10, 2020

clint van damme said:
Caroline Dinenage getting rinsed by BBC wet lettuce Charlie Stayt this morning. As is the norm now, totally unprepared to answer the most predictable of questions.
That will be another program added to the list of those they refuse to appear on because of the nasty man asking questions.

Brighton Sky Blue · Jul 10, 2020

skybluetony176 said:
He’s killed more British people than Blair did through the illegal war. By about 44,500 people to be precise. Well, I say precise when I mean by the governments own figures.

You know if he faced an inquiry he’d just churn out the jokes and rambunctious clown routine and get away with it.

Walsgrave · Jul 10, 2020

skybluetony176 said:

This is a consequence of the appalling teaching of science we have in British schools. British scientific standards are behind Germany, the Scandinavian countries, you name it. It is only because of foreign researchers that the British scientific head is above water. Rather than regarding scientific understanding as an essential part of public life, people would rather be contrarian and 'leave it to the scientists'.

derbyskyblue · Jul 10, 2020

shmmeee said:
Woah

Thats the first time ive seen that, had to watch it twice to be sure.......

Brighton Sky Blue · Jul 10, 2020

Walsgrave said:
This is a consequence of the appalling teaching of science we have in British schools. British scientific standards are behind Germany, the Scandinavian countries, you name it. It is only because of foreign researchers that the British scientific head is above water. Rather than regarding scientific understanding as an essential part of public life, people would rather be contrarian and 'leave it to the scientists'.

No offence taken I only partook in both

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Jul 10, 2020

Ian1779 said:
Northern Labour voters have been in decline since the end of the 90’s because the party was viewed as too London-centric. 2017 was actually an arrest of this decline and in some areas it started to improve, only to be truly fucked by the Brexit stance.

I know we have gone over this before but I don’t believe abandoning ‘left’ economic policy is going to make anywhere near enough electoral gains. Labour should be all about fairer distribution of economic wealth and it should be championing housing and green initiatives - be radical in this way. If it wants to appeal to the Tory voters then be more ‘British’ on social values. They should have learnt that in 2015 when we couldn’t be deciphered from the Tories.

On the whole I agree with you, but to suggest Northern Labour voters feel they're too London-centric (which they may well do with the Islington socialists like Corbyn) but why then would they move to Tory, who're even more London centric, but focused on the wealthy bits like the City, Chelsea, Kensington etc and then the leafy commuter suburbs of Surrey and Kent.

Why do people keep on falling for the guff about Midlands Engine and Northern Powerhouse. I mean if you just look at those policies it's nothing more than playing to lazy stereotypes of the regions based on their golden periods. Manufacturing/factories etc when those days are gone. Never suggest those plans for the South do they? It's nothing more than lip service. Are people really that stupid that they'll just vote for something that helps them reminisce about the 'good old days'?

Brighton Sky Blue · Jul 10, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
On the whole I agree with you, but to suggest Northern Labour voters feel they're too London-centric (which they may well do with the Islington socialists like Corbyn) but why then would they move to Tory, who're even more London centric, but focused on the wealthy bits like the City, Chelsea, Kensington etc and then the leafy commuter suburbs of Surrey and Kent.

Why do people keep on falling for the guff about Midlands Engine and Northern Powerhouse. I mean if you just look at those policies it's nothing more than playing to lazy stereotypes of the regions based on their golden periods. Manufacturing/factories etc when those days are gone. Never suggest those plans for the South do they? It's nothing more than lip service. Are people really that stupid that they'll just vote for something that helps them reminisce about the 'good old days'?

I guess the ‘London Wanker’ or ‘Home Counties Prick’ doesn’t play so well.

Walsgrave · Jul 10, 2020

Brighton Sky Blue said:
No offence taken I only partook in both

Haha!
I am mostly referring to the small but sizeable minority of schools where there is such a dearth of talent that there are Heads of Department who are trained in PE or other subjects. A school is considered lucky if it has a qualified teacher of Physics, for instance, else some joker from PE has to step in to deliver the lessons. With all due respect to the PE teacher, it saddens me that this is the norm for many schools, and it gives me little hope that this kind of attitude trickles its way up to the very top of government - rather than scientific understanding being promoted, it's made exclusive to a few individuals, thereby allowing people to delegate responsibility to 'the scientists'.

Brighton Sky Blue · Jul 10, 2020

Walsgrave said:
Haha!
I am mostly referring to the small but sizeable minority of schools where there is such a dearth of talent that there are Heads of Department who are trained in PE or other subjects. A school is considered lucky if it has a qualified teacher of Physics, for instance, else some joker from PE has to step in to deliver the lessons. With all due respect to the PE teacher, it saddens me that this is the norm for many schools, and it gives me little hope that this kind of attitude trickles its way up to the very top of government - rather than scientific understanding being promoted, it's made exclusive to a few individuals, thereby allowing people to delegate responsibility to 'the scientists'.

You are right there, which is why I moved to a school where I could just teach my specialist science. Even so it does annoy me a bit when colleagues joke about only knowing what’s on the spec and not much else. In my research group just under half of us were British, though both the prof and the rest were European and mostly on European research grants. The new A levels are a big improvement in terms of rigour mind you, particularly with the way practical work is assessed and also with exams that include more stuff that I only did at uni.

shmmeee · Jul 10, 2020

Brighton Sky Blue said:
You are right there, which is why I moved to a school where I could just teach my specialist science. Even so it does annoy me a bit when colleagues joke about only knowing what’s on the spec and not much else. In my research group just under half of us were British, though both the prof and the rest were European and mostly on European research grants. The new A levels are a big improvement in terms of rigour mind you, particularly with the way practical work is assessed and also with exams that include more stuff that I only did at uni.

Try it with Computing and a bunch of ex Art and Maths teachers whining “do I really have to teach programming?”

I taught a Y7 Science Class for a year and was well out of my depth and I’m hardly a scientific dunce.

Brighton Sky Blue · Jul 10, 2020

shmmeee said:
Try it with Computing and a bunch of ex Art and Maths teachers whining “do I really have to teach programming?”

I taught a Y7 Science Class for a year and was well out of my depth and I’m hardly a scientific dunce.

I’m much happier just taking my own specialism now but the higher ups are discussing merging it all into ‘science’. If they do that I’ll jump ship again as I think it does a disservice to each of the 3. Same with history and geography being merged into ‘humanities’.

shmmeee · Jul 10, 2020

Brighton Sky Blue said:
I’m much happier just taking my own specialism now but the higher ups are discussing merging it all into ‘science’. If they do that I’ll jump ship again as I think it does a disservice to each of the 3. Same with history and geography being merged into ‘humanities’.

Yeah the equivalent in computing is “Business and IT”

I think triple science is definitely the way to go. I grew up thinking “I’m good a physics, OK at Chemistry and suck at Biology” which IMO is much healthier than “I’m OK at science” which is probably what I’d have thought with single science. They’re such different disciplines.

Ian1779 · Jul 10, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
On the whole I agree with you, but to suggest Northern Labour voters feel they're too London-centric (which they may well do with the Islington socialists like Corbyn) but why then would they move to Tory, who're even more London centric, but focused on the wealthy bits like the City, Chelsea, Kensington etc and then the leafy commuter suburbs of Surrey and Kent.

Why do people keep on falling for the guff about Midlands Engine and Northern Powerhouse. I mean if you just look at those policies it's nothing more than playing to lazy stereotypes of the regions based on their golden periods. Manufacturing/factories etc when those days are gone. Never suggest those plans for the South do they? It's nothing more than lip service. Are people really that stupid that they'll just vote for something that helps them reminisce about the 'good old days'?

The Tories are good at creating an alternative narrative. The last election was easy for them with Brexit but also they managed to convince Northern voters that their underinvestment and decimation in their region was the fault of the incumbent Lab MP’s and not the Tory government that had been in charge for last 10 years.

Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (258 Viewers)

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