Match Thread Coventry City-SWFC Match Thread- Saturday 5th October (11 Viewers)

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
Football is infinite in the sense that when a player has possession there are an infinite number of things they could do with it; dribble in any direction for any distance; pass any distance, any length, with any type of height on the ball; shoot at any area of the goal with any power and curl etc. On any given move in chess you have a finite number of pieces you could move in a finite number of ways.

xG is only capturing shots that actually happened - doesn't capture anything else. That's its limitation.

If we can predict next frame of video we can predict next frame of video. You don’t need to model everything because everything isn’t relevant. You can get 98% of the way and that’s good enough.

Yes a player can do “anything” but mostly they play football and that’s within a fairly limited range. We have tons of footage, probably more than any other human activity. We can absolutely train a model to do best action prediction in football which is all xG is really.
 

Johhny Blue

Well-Known Member
Football is absolutely not infinite, there’s a limited number of players in a limited space. The barrier to modelling isn’t resolution, we can accurately model the weather after all.

We can absolutely build a predictive model using some kind of tokenisation and traditional feature extraction from current video segmentation and labelling techniques. Even a relatively low resolution 3D grid would capture most of the relevant features of players and balls maybe you could get sophisticated with pose estimation and kinematic modelling of player body positions, but a simple CNN classifier to put them into a few minimal pose buckets would work too for player state: standing, jumping, falling, etc. time series gives you velocity and movement.

Once you’ve done that you can model goals and produce some kind of similarity metric which allows you to assign difficulty scores.

But I fully expect that’s what closed source xG models are doing.

TBH I wouldn’t be surprised if you could skip all of that these days and feed the video into a video transformer model similar to ChatGPT and get a direct prediction out. Next token prediction is what video generation models do, run a bunch of next frames predictions after training on all the football footage you can find and assess how many have the ball in the goal.
If only I’d known that years ago when I did the pools
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
Was watching something or reading something and the figures of variables after about 6 moves was in the billions unless I was mishearing

Yeah but you aren’t trying to predict an entire game and we have things like the Monte Carlo tree search algorithms used in AlphaGo that mean you don’t need a full information picture to make accurate predictions about future states.

Brute force algorithms running every possible scenario is very 1990s.
 

CovValleyBoy

Well-Known Member
Wednesday will park the bus and play deep so wouldn't be surprised too see BTA out wide as no space for him to run into through the middle. Other than that I'd go pretty much with the same team with Simms replacing Tats.
Actually their front three work hard to try & press high.
Football is absolutely not infinite, there’s a limited number of players in a limited space. The barrier to modelling isn’t resolution, we can accurately model the weather after all.

We can absolutely build a predictive model using some kind of tokenisation and traditional feature extraction from current video segmentation and labelling techniques. Even a relatively low resolution 3D grid would capture most of the relevant features of players and balls maybe you could get sophisticated with pose estimation and kinematic modelling of player body positions, but a simple CNN classifier to put them into a few minimal pose buckets would work too for player state: standing, jumping, falling, etc. time series gives you velocity and movement.

Once you’ve done that you can model goals and produce some kind of similarity metric which allows you to assign difficulty scores.

But I fully expect that’s what closed source xG models are doing.

TBH I wouldn’t be surprised if you could skip all of that these days and feed the video into a video transformer model similar to ChatGPT and get a direct prediction out. Next token prediction is what video generation models do, run a bunch of next frames predictions after training on all the football footage you can find and assess how many have the ball in the goal.
Wow , I never saw a calculator until I was 14 !!
 

wingy

Well-Known Member
Back to the Squad,if we want MR to survive it will be rotated however much he feels, not what we necessarily want or think, we've gone off message a bit and the owner Will be expecting his sales at the expected window and building those players Will be crucial to the next stage in the journey so don't expect or assume anything really, they're this week's hot flame, but others will be considered or consigned to the bin by some of us, don't mean the owner will concur!
 

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
My only concern is that at the moment whoever plays on the right doesn't track back enough, leaving MVE to decide which of two players to cover
We had about 3 different players there who all seemed to be doing the same thing - moving inside and not tracking back.

It got to the point where I wondered it it was a coaching instruction, but it couldn't have been given how much of a problem it was causing us.
 

thekidfromstrettoncamp

Well-Known Member
IMO the same happens on the
My only concern is that at the moment whoever plays on the right doesn't track back enough, leaving MVE to decide which of two players to cover
IMO the same happens on the left not only do they not track back they stand in no mans land when marking up for goalkicks .
 

Bugsy

Well-Known Member
Good news, Saka should be back for Preston game...PUSB
 

alexccfc99

Well-Known Member
Wasn't it against this lot that kitching got sent off for defending himself?

Scabby players, scabby club and scabby fan base
That was the League game on Boxing Day where Kitch was sent off for being headbutted, Allen was clotheslined in the cup replay at home

Scabby stadium as well, awful place
 

The watchmaker

Well-Known Member
If we want to play the same as Tuesday assante has to play up front, started the press from the front, simms doesn’t do that, feel a bit sorry for him, don’t think he’s gonna fit in to how we should be playing at home, away games maybe
BTA starts. Surely. Dropping him after the win would be nuts and send out totally the wrong message. I love his energy and personality and I don't really get why West Brom fans don't rate him...

...but... I think we are getting a bit overexcited about what this means about him/Simms etc long term. That's pretty much the first game we've had any control over the midfield and in front of similar set ups last season Simms put in arguably more impressive performances.

Robins clearly likes calling Simms out and wants to see more from him but he is still only 23, scored 19 last season and he is a valuable asset - the obituaries are a little premature.
 

Macca

Well-Known Member
Football is infinite in the sense that when a player has possession there are an infinite number of things they could do with it; dribble in any direction for any distance; pass any distance, any length, with any type of height on the ball; shoot at any area of the goal with any power and curl etc. On any given move in chess you have a finite number of pieces you could move in a finite number of ways.

xG is only capturing shots that actually happened - doesn't capture anything else. That's it's limitation.

I like the bit where we score the ball in the goal
 

gspotgaz

Well-Known Member
That was the League game on Boxing Day where Kitch was sent off for being headbutted, Allen was clotheslined in the cup replay at home

Scabby stadium as well, awful place
Was right in front of me that. One of the most baffling reds I’ve ever seen. Their lad nutted kitching about 3x and kitching just stood there
 

Skybluekyle

Well-Known Member
And yes, I chalk that up mostly to the disconnect from reality a disturbingly large amount of people have when it comes to commenting on social media.
 

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