Coventry Evening Telegraph. (1 Viewer)

[italiahorse]

So your opinion is that CCFC shouldn't have been given the opportunity to purchase at the same price and terms under which Wasps purchased ?

No I'm saying that after being the cause of the price drop CCC were unlikely to let SISU gain from it. When Wasps came along it solved all their problems. As a CCFC fan I would want CCFC to purchase it at the knock down price not SISU.

Well that all depends on how a new stadium is financed doesn't it. For example with the Ricoh the council only put in £10m, that would make a purchase on the suggest terms a poor deal. However the complex as a whole cost over £100m so if you're comparing against a stadium totally funded by CCFC then it looks like a good deal.

How CCFC messed up on taking up the option to buy the land I still can't work out, but a new stadium would not have the same opportunity so it would be at actual cost.

So in your retrospect should we have taken the £13M option and now own ACL ?

 

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[Nick]

What 13m option?

 

[stupot07]

What 13m option?

There was no £13m option. The council half was never up for sale back in the day.

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[italiahorse]

What 13m option?

Pre Sisu the intent was for CCFC to own both halves of ACL.
CCFC sold their half to Higgs for £6.5M so it is reasonable to assume the other half was also £6.5M

Should SISU have pursued obtaining ACL at that £13M would that not have been better than building our own smaller stadium ?

 

[Sick Boy]

We all know that ccfc would have snapped the Ricoh up had it been offered to them for the same price it was to the franchise.

 

[chiefdave]

CCFC sold their half to Higgs for £6.5M so it is reasonable to assume the other half was also £6.5M

Should SISU have pursued obtaining ACL at that £13M would that not have been better than building our own smaller stadium ?

Whose intent? When we went through the sales process that resulted in SISU taking over CCC refused to even consider selling their half to the club resulting in at least two other potential buyers walking away.

CCFC did indeed sell their half to Higgs but the price for them to buy it back was £10m so there is little evidence to suggest they could have purchased the council's share for £6.5m. If anything it is more likely that Higgs got their share cheap (and remember not all the £6.5m was cash) as CCFC had limited options to resolve their cashflow issues.

 

[SkyBlueZack]

What annoys me is the because of sisu its what sisu did? Does no one think beyond that? Ie the football club and its future?

 

[italiahorse]

We all know that ccfc would have snapped the Ricoh up had it been offered to them for the same price it was to the franchise.

Not what Fisher said.

 

[italiahorse]

Whose intent? When we went through the sales process that resulted in SISU taking over CCC refused to even consider selling their half to the club resulting in at least two other potential buyers walking away.

CCFC did indeed sell their half to Higgs but the price for them to buy it back was £10m so there is little evidence to suggest they could have purchased the council's share for £6.5m. If anything it is more likely that Higgs got their share cheap (and remember not all the £6.5m was cash) as CCFC had limited options to resolve their cashflow issues.

So CCC would not have sold ACL to CCFC anytime but would wait and sell cheaper to Wasps or anyone else ?.

FFS take that Sisu hat off.

 

[Jack Griffin]

We all know that ccfc would have snapped the Ricoh up had it been offered to them for the same price it was to the franchise.

So why didn't SISU make the offer that you say they'd have taken. #talkingBollocks

 

[covmark]

So CCC would not have sold ACL to CCFC anytime but would wait and sell cheaper to Wasps or anyone else ?.

FFS take that Sisu hat off.

The reason Sisu were the councils preferred bidder was because they weren't after the stadium share. Like CD says that is why other parties walked away.

Ffs take your Wasps/Council hat off

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[italiahorse]

The reason Sisu were the councils preferred bidder was because they weren't after the stadium share. Like CD says that is why other parties walked away.

Ffs take your Wasps/Council hat off

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I have never seen the original Sisu offer for CCFC.
Can you advise where it is including the references about being the only offer that didn't want the Ricoh ?
Must be some where, although nothing mentioned at the JR.

 

[chiefdave]

What annoys me is the because of sisu its what sisu did? Does no one think beyond that? Ie the football club and its future?

Exactly. People are more concerned with getting one over on SISU than they are the future of our club. Hopefully we'll still be here long after SISU have gone.

As bad as many things SISU have done have been the one thing the club will struggle to ever recover from once their gone is the council's decision to sell the stadium to Wasps.

 

[chiefdave]

So CCC would not have sold ACL to CCFC anytime but would wait and sell cheaper to Wasps or anyone else ?.

FFS take that Sisu hat off.

Once again you're twisting things. You said that at the point we sold our share to Higgs we could have instead purchased CCC's share at the same price. There is absolutely no evidence to support that. The rumours at the point SISU took over were that Higgs wanted £10m plus, pretty much confirmed by PWKH, and CCC weren't interested in talking about anything less than £30m. How true that was I don't know but there was never any talk of the ground being available for the price you suggest.

 

[chiefdave]

I have never seen the original Sisu offer for CCFC.
Can you advise where it is including the references about being the only offer that didn't want the Ricoh ?
Must be some where, although nothing mentioned at the JR.

The Manhattan Sports bid was arranged by Gary Hopkins and involved Sean McDevitt, Philip Harris, and Roger Garment. They had actually reached agreement with Robinson and the CCFC board on a sale but it all collapsed when they met with CCC. They left the meeting and were quoted as saying CCC would be impossible to work with got straight on a plane and were never heard from again.

There was another group, name escapes me right now, who also wanted to develop additional land around the Ricoh (think it was the land to the north) and wanted the council to assist in gaining ownership of the land. I recall following their meeting with the council Mutton publicly slated them saying the Ricoh & CCFC were not a vehicle to redevelop the area. Always remember that because even back then it registered as odd given the Ricoh was supposed to regenerate the area.

 

[italiahorse]

The Manhattan Sports bid was arranged by Gary Hopkins and involved Sean McDevitt, Philip Harris, and Roger Garment. They had actually reached agreement with Robinson and the CCFC board on a sale but it all collapsed when they met with CCC. They left the meeting and were quoted as saying CCC would be impossible to work with got straight on a plane and were never heard from again.

There was another group, name escapes me right now, who also wanted to develop additional land around the Ricoh (think it was the land to the north) and wanted the council to assist in gaining ownership of the land. I recall following their meeting with the council Mutton publicly slated them saying the Ricoh & CCFC were not a vehicle to redevelop the area. Always remember that because even back then it registered as odd given the Ricoh was supposed to regenerate the area.

Appreciate your answer but where is this documented ?

 

[albatross]

It really makes me wonder how and why people now argue that the RICOH was sold on the cheap and at a knock down price. At the time of the deal Fisher's widely reported position was as below (taken from the Guardian in Dec 2014.)

"City’s chief executive, Tim Fisher, insists they do not regret failing to buy the Ricoh, saying they could not agree to taking it on, as Wasps have done, not only for £5.4m but with the council’s £14m loan on the stadium still to pay."

They (SISU) seem to indicate that if anything the Ricoh was overvalued at the time.

 

[Grendel]

Appreciate your answer but where is this documented ?

It's funny you want documented evidence - why don't you go and find it and also find documented evidence that shows the Higgs share capital in the Ricoh was £6.5 million.

The other company who bidded was someone called Shapiro. They wanted a long term lease on the ground and he council rejected it out of hand.

Funnily the worst bid according to the council was initially sisu but because that did not interfere with the cost arrangement the council and Higgs had - namely the club continues to fund it's project via grossly inflated rental payments - they suddenly became the bid of choice.

 

[italiahorse]

It's funny you want documented evidence - why don't you go and find it and also find documented evidence that shows the Higgs share capital in the Ricoh was £6.5 million.

The other company who bidded was someone called Shapiro. They wanted a long term lease on the ground and he council rejected it out of hand.

Funnily the worst bid according to the council was initially sisu but because that did not interfere with the cost arrangement the council and Higgs had - namely the club continues to fund it's project via grossly inflated rental payments - they suddenly became the bid of choice.

But where is it documented.
It's simple to ask and I can't find it.

CCFC sold their share of ACL to Higgs for £6.5M. Surely their is no dispute in that. What is unknown (to me) is the formula price for buying it back.
I assume that the formula price was at least £6.5M which leaves me with a bitter taste as Sisu then tried to get it cheaper than that price from a charity that only purchased it to help us out.

 

[italiahorse]

It really makes me wonder how and why people now argue that the RICOH was sold on the cheap and at a knock down price. At the time of the deal Fisher's widely reported position was as below (taken from the Guardian in Dec 2014.)

"City’s chief executive, Tim Fisher, insists they do not regret failing to buy the Ricoh, saying they could not agree to taking it on, as Wasps have done, not only for £5.4m but with the council’s £14m loan on the stadium still to pay."

They (SISU) seem to indicate that if anything the Ricoh was overvalued at the time.

Or it may simply mean that the complex was not something CCFC could afford or handle from their position in league 1.
If CCC thought this also then should they wait while the incompetent Sisu get us into the Championship or sell to someone who they thought could?

I still say from a commercial point of view they made the right decision. The JR findings also back this as does the fact that Wasps appear to have hit the ground running.

 

[Grendel]

But where is it documented.
It's simple to ask and I can't find it.

CCFC sold their share of ACL to Higgs for £6.5M. Surely their is no dispute in that. What is unknown (to me) is the formula price for buying it back.
I assume that the formula price was at least £6.5M which leaves me with a bitter taste as Sisu then tried to get it cheaper than that price from a charity that only purchased it to help us out.

In asking what was the share capital of ACL was as you were suggesting that the council share was worth the same. This is a factually inaccurate statement as the £6.5 million also consisted of long standing loans to the club - nothing to do with the Arena purchase.

Given that purchase took place before sisu were here your "bitter taste" reference is absurd as wasps ended up paying the market price - a lot less.

Manhattan group said the council and Higgs were impossible to deal with and having in principal agreed a deal with the club abandoned talks with the council after 1 day and Shapiro wanted a long lease (sound familiar) and bidded £26 million but were told no. So the lowest bid, sisu, was the one the council wanted as it involved no ground ownership. Their subsequent bid for the lease to Higgs of £2 million was definitely less than the initial Shapiro bid according to the council leader at the time.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

At least we know that you would nice and passive should ccfc ever move.

If you remember - they did move us! I was totally NOPM...so no not passive.
Just like I cannot turn the clock back & stop myself eating all the cake that made me fat.
The point is that moaning about it & going over & over it, again & again I a complete waste of time & energy.
Instead of discussing or moaning about it - go away & quietly seek a realistic solution...& let us all know when you have it...or give it up!!!

...onwards & upwards PUSB

 

[italiahorse]

In asking what was the share capital of ACL was as you were suggesting that the council share was worth the same. This is a factually inaccurate statement as the £6.5 million also consisted of long standing loans to the club - nothing to do with the Arena purchase.

Given that purchase took place before sisu were here your "bitter taste" reference is absurd as wasps ended up paying the market price - a lot less.

Manhattan group said the council and Higgs were impossible to deal with and having in principal agreed a deal with the club abandoned talks with the council after 1 day and Shapiro wanted a long lease (sound familiar) and bidded £26 million but were told no. So the lowest bid, sisu, was the one the council wanted as it involved no ground ownership. Their subsequent bid for the lease to Higgs of £2 million was definitely less than the initial Shapiro bid according to the council leader at the time.

Easy to say, but I'd like to see the evidence.
Surely you are not quoting from memory ?

On the council value for ACL I did say it was an assumption based on the Higgs 50% being valued at £6.5M at the time.

 

[Nick]

But where is it documented.
It's simple to ask and I can't find it.

CCFC sold their share of ACL to Higgs for £6.5M. Surely their is no dispute in that. What is unknown (to me) is the formula price for buying it back.
I assume that the formula price was at least £6.5M which leaves me with a bitter taste as Sisu then tried to get it cheaper than that price from a charity that only purchased it to help us out.

Wasps got it for much less but no bitter taste? Just good business

 

[chiefdave]

Appreciate your answer but where is this documented ?

You would need to go back and look at the CT and CWR archives from around the time Paul Fletcher resigned. He obviously realised it had all gone tits up and got out.

Today, prospects of a rescue by Sky Blues fan and former Coventry schoolboy Gary Hopkins seem to be dead in the water.He was fronting an approach by American firm Manhattan Sports Capital Partners to buy both the struggling Championship club and the Ricoh Arena.

The man putting up the money, Sheldon Yellen, owner and chairman of a company called Belfor, flew over from the States on Monday. He and his team had two days of talks. They met Mr Robinson, officials from the Sky Blues' bank, the Co-operative Bank, from the football club, and from Coventry City Council and the Alan Edward Higgs charity which jointly own the Ricoh Arena, at Rowleys Green.

Yesterday, Sky Blues managing director Paul Fletcher sensationally quit, claiming all deals were falling through.

Last night, city development director John McGuigan said a reply wasn't expected from the Americans until Sunday night or Monday morning. Mr McGuigan said: "They met Arena Coventry Ltd, met councillors, Stella [Manzie, council chief executive] and myself, representatives of the football club, Geoffrey, Cooperative Bank, and the Higgs charity.

They were never heard from again after that.

The other was from a firm called Shapiro, which offered £26million but wanted the club to pay off its debts and the city council to give it a longer lease on the Ricoh Arena and some spare land to the north of the site.

Mr McGuigan (CCC development director) said that deal would have cost the council £4million of taxpayers' money and left the Alan Edward Higgs charity £2.5million out of pocket.

 

[chiefdave]

CCFC sold their share of ACL to Higgs for £6.5M. Surely their is no dispute in that. What is unknown (to me) is the formula price for buying it back.
I assume that the formula price was at least £6.5M which leaves me with a bitter taste as Sisu then tried to get it cheaper than that price from a charity that only purchased it to help us out.

Worth remembering how the £6.5m was made up. It was a split between new money, writing off loans from Higgs (that IMO were unlikely to ever be repaid) and repaying loans to CCFC directors on the proviso that the money was loaned back to the club. The formula price was confirmed on here by PWKH to be in the region of £10m.

At the time it was reported by the press, and not questioned, that CCC would not even entertain an offer of less than £30m for their 50%.

Therefore the reality is had SISU, or anyone else, wished to purchase ACL with a lease of under 50 years it would have cost them £40m plus. Compare that to what Wasps paid.

 

[chiefdave]

It really makes me wonder how and why people now argue that the RICOH was sold on the cheap and at a knock down price. At the time of the deal Fisher's widely reported position was as below (taken from the Guardian in Dec 2014.)

"City’s chief executive, Tim Fisher, insists they do not regret failing to buy the Ricoh, saying they could not agree to taking it on, as Wasps have done, not only for £5.4m but with the council’s £14m loan on the stadium still to pay."

They (SISU) seem to indicate that if anything the Ricoh was overvalued at the time.

Yet at the same time SISU matched Wasps bid for Higgs 50%. Its almost as if Fisher was trying to save face after the stadium had been lost.

 

[chiefdave]

I assume that the formula price was at least £6.5M which leaves me with a bitter taste as Sisu then tried to get it cheaper than that price from a charity that only purchased it to help us out.

But you celebrate Wasps buying it for far less.

Or it may simply mean that the complex was not something CCFC could afford or handle from their position in league 1.

How have you drawn the conclusion the club could't handle running ACL while in L1? Are crowds are equitable to Wasps, and of course with more games the total numbers are higher. I see nothing to indicate that Wasps have done anything any other company running the Ricoh couldn't do.

And of course SISU's plan was not to run it themselves but to bring in experts in the field.

 

[italiahorse]

But you celebrate Wasps buying it for far less.



How have you drawn the conclusion the club could't handle running ACL while in L1? Are crowds are equitable to Wasps, and of course with more games the total numbers are higher. I see nothing to indicate that Wasps have done anything any other company running the Ricoh couldn't do.

And of course SISU's plan was not to run it themselves but to bring in experts in the field.

You seem to know more than Sisu.
One week they say one thing the next they say another. Your hanging on the stuff that suits your argument and forgetting the reality.

Sisu never really had a plan that would suit anybody else other than themselves.

 

[chiefdave]

You seem to know more than Sisu.
One week they say one thing the next they say another. Your hanging on the stuff that suits your argument and forgetting the reality.

Sisu never really had a plan that would suit anybody else other than themselves.

I'm not hanging on anything. I just think it is nonsense to suggest that Wasps will become the biggest club as a result of buying ACL and also asset that it would have somehow crippled us and we would have been unable to run it effectively.

 

[SkyBlueZack]

Still waiting for my answer italia.

 

[Moff]

The Manhattan Sports bid was arranged by Gary Hopkins and involved Sean McDevitt, Philip Harris, and Roger Garment. They had actually reached agreement with Robinson and the CCFC board on a sale but it all collapsed when they met with CCC. They left the meeting and were quoted as saying CCC would be impossible to work with got straight on a plane and were never heard from again.

There was another group, name escapes me right now, who also wanted to develop additional land around the Ricoh (think it was the land to the north) and wanted the council to assist in gaining ownership of the land. I recall following their meeting with the council Mutton publicly slated them saying the Ricoh & CCFC were not a vehicle to redevelop the area. Always remember that because even back then it registered as odd given the Ricoh was supposed to regenerate the area.

Appreciate your answer but where is this documented ?

Well I can only add that from my recall of events Dave's assessment of what happened is spot on.

Will look for some press articles on it when I get a chance, so please bear with.

 

[Rusty Trombone]

The formula price was the maximum that was payable, the club and Higgs were able to agree a lower price. Higgs were prepared to accept less with the deal that ultimately failed with SISU, and obviously sold to Wasps for less than what the formula would be.

 

[Grendel]

The formula price was the maximum that was payable, the club and Higgs were able to agree a lower price. Higgs were prepared to accept less with the deal that ultimately failed with SISU, and obviously sold to Wasps for less than what the formula would be.

They weren't prepared to accept less in 2007 though

 

[italiahorse]

Still waiting for my answer italia.

Sorry what was the question ?