Do managers really make that much of a difference? (1 Viewer)

[rob9872]

.... or is it as simple as good well organised players and luck?

I'm not suggesting any muppet can do it, you need a certain amount of nouse and tactical acumen, but assuming that many of them are much of a muchness, is it not just freshening it up and hope that it works?

I see people quoting teams like Palace and Watford suggesting that Dowie and Boothroyd succeeded there but failed at City. Is the truth not that Dowie had decent players and more importantly Andy Johnson scoring close on 30 goals that season? Similarly the Watford side included Marlon at his peak, Ben Foster in goal and had Ashley Young. I would think a large % of managers could have had similar success with those squads and for that reason I think players make the difference not managers.

A bit of luck here and there could be the difference between success and failure. You can't make a silk purse from a sows ear and I suspect that many of our players are not as good as we would like them to be.

 

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[SkyBlue_Bear83]

You don't need to be a tactical genius or have a great team to get promoted

Get yourself organised in defence and tight at the back, don't make mistakes. Have a purpose and clear vision of what you want to achieve in your attacking play, what you want your end product to be, for the last year we haven't really had a plan or purpose going forward. We would get to a certain position on the pitch and we would lose it or just sling in a hopeful cross to only 1 man in the box

 

[SkyBluesAndy]

You have a point, whoever we appoint never seem to do any better than the last man in charge

 

[stupot07]

A snippet from The Secret Footballer

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2012/apr/20/promotion-team-fight-every-inch

I've lost count of the number of managers who have used the well-known Al Pacino speech from the film Any Given Sunday as a motivational tool just before a big game. Queens Park Rangers even played it on the giant screen at Loftus Road before they played*Swansea City 10 days ago. But for*my money, it is the team that buy into the sentiment of Pacino's war cry for longest that will have the most*success.

Reading's haul of 46 points from the past 51 available has seen them promoted to the Premier League after a four-year absence. From the outside looking in, it would appear that Brian McDermott's squad of players recognise that together they are far more than the sum of their parts and, having caught a couple of their games on TV this season, they certainly appear to be a squad that have fought their way back to the big stage one inch at a time.

That isn't meant to be disrespectful, quite the opposite. If you are lucky in football, if all the stars are lined up just right, you may be part of a team that have some hugely talented individuals that are hungry to succeed and are willing, quite selflessly, to go that extra inch for their team-mates.

That is certainly how it felt when I played in a team that won promotion to the Premier League. The absolute confidence that each of us felt in one another was something that I have only ever encountered in that one season. It is a feeling of superiority that carries a team over the line before they have even*stepped on the pitch. When a player doesn't have to worry about whether his team-mate will have a good game, it instils a belief that carries you through matches.

A manager doesn't need to be a tactical genius to win promotion to the Premier League. If anything, the trick lies in good man-management and putting together the right group of players, who do their job diligently and efficiently and have a greater motivation to succeed than the team they are playing against.

That is the foundation upon which most teams that win promotion are built. Scouts often tell me they would reject a well-known and very capable player because of concerns about a perceived lack of hunger, in favour of a player from lower down the divisions who has everything to gain.

With Reading, it is clear every player is performing to the maximum because a large number of them, including a few who have been around the block, share something that teams relegated from the top flight rarely have: the desire to make their debuts in the Premier League. Swansea and Norwich had something similar last season and look what has happened since.

What is great about Reading's dynamic is that those players with Premier League experience have fed off the hunger of those who*are desperate for a taste. Finding*those guys who appear to have seen it and done it but retain the same level of ambition and enthusiasm, such as*Jason Roberts, is an extremely difficult task.
.............

 

[rob9872]

I found myself nodding at chunks of that stu, although ultimately I would say the fact that they got Jason Roberts and ALF was what got them over the line moreso than the fact McDermott was the manager.

 

[Grendel]

Some managers have a relatively short success rate before hitting a downward spiral. Many we have recruited had a short spell of success but this proved an exception rather than the rule.

Luck plays a huge part. Black saw the Icelandic guy (forgot his name) play the best football of his life and we benefitted. Personally I think boothroyd still has a lot to offer and will generally impact positively some teams he manages.

There are some managers who seem to consistently do well - lambert, Allardyce, Moyes seem very capable of getting the best out of players. McDermott at Reading seems very unassuming but has proved very good in the role.

 

[stupot07]

I found myself nodding at chunks of that stu, although ultimately I would say the fact that they got Jason Roberts and ALF was what got them over the line moreso than the fact McDermott was the manager.

I think that's the thread that runs through the article - its more about having the right bunch of players, with the right attitudes at the right time, where every player plays selflessly for each other fighting for every ball, working hard and the ability to consistently perform.....then all you need is good man management.

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

Lambert's side at Norwich is the one that screams out at me given that piece, Stu: he very much signed players on character.

There's so much truth in your quote. It made me think of that Hull side that managed to have 3 players (Dawson, France..can't remember the other) that played in every division for the club. They weren't Premiership footballers when in D3, and on ability alone should never have been.

That feeling of when everything in a team is clicking into place in a well-oiled machine translates to other sports, and other aspects of life. Confidence is so much of it, meaning you don't even have to stop and think, you just do, and the momentum does the rest. The buzz of success is in itself a hugely motivating factor. And in football, it doesn't always require the same manager to maintain it at a club, but a coherent succession of managers that maintain the momentum (Swansea: Jackett, Martinez, Sousa, Rogers, Laudrup-and barely a blip along the way).

 

[Sky Blues]

I think stability and a clear direction for the club (a particular playing system, focused youth program etc) can really help. At Old Trafford and Goodison this probably stems from the manager, at other clubs, Swansea for example, this seems to come from the boardroom. Give a good, thoughtful manager time and I think he can probably make a difference. If a manager doesn't have time and can only work with the players from a previous regime I think results are likely to be more random. I think Brendan Rodgers could be an interesting test of my theory. He has come to Anfield with a clear plan, but will he be given time at Liverpool to properly make it work? The plan may not work, but unless he is given time no-one will know.

But I think "luck" can play a part too though. A string of injuries or a disallowed goal might make the difference between being kept on or let go. Ferguson was rumoured to have been facing the sack if Man United lost a key cup game in 1990 & I think it has been suggested Mancini could have been fired if Man City didn't win the title last season - when it comes down to one game those factors could make a difference. If Ferguson had been sacked after that game he would not have been able to complete the rebuilding effort that produced the team that began the trophy haul and he may not have been given the time or opportunity to find success at another club.

On a slight tangent, I was just looking at a study which found that, on average, English league teams who change their manager in season under-perform in the following three months. Therefore, poorer results under Shaw (and the next manager) should not be unexpected for the next few weeks. I guess it also means anyone who comes in mid-season and isn't given very long may appear to be poor when actually the structural disruption of a managerial upheaval might be as much to blame. I should just add the study found results became more varied in the short-term after an in-season sacking. So maybe boards looking for that perceived "honeymoon period" with a new manager are, unwittingly, tapping into the greater variety of results than a specific "bounce".

 

[gally9]

A manager will make the difference, but they have to be of the right quality and as some have said already, be the right fit at the right time.. its finding that fit thats the problem.

Our multiple problems make finding that fit even more difficult, along with the expectation levels of some of our fans.

 

[skybluegod]

We need someone to make them play. We need someone who can get the best out of his players with the right formation and the type of play. we need to get the basics right and work up from that. We need a manager who can do all this,so yes a manager is very important, if Alex ferguson wasn't at man u the last 20+ years then im 80% sure they wouldn't have won as many trophies as they have.

 

[Chipfat]

Horses for courses, you as an owner have to pick the right manager to fit your clubs circumstances and if you are open and honest at interviews you will find the right manager. We now live in the world of football where most managers are wealthy and are not looking for finacial stability they are looking to progress in a career in management and cv is as important as bank account.

So for us, if a manager can work with the tools he has got and thinks the club is going to go to a place he wants then managers play a massive role in sucess. For CCFC decision making has been poor from the board to the pitch for such along time that time repeats itself. To do the same things and expect a different result is madness, so we need a board to be open, honest and supportive, we will then get the correct manager who will take us in a direction that fits the club. And then we have players who understand what is asked and what is expected...

In all Decision making is the be all and end all of football or any sporting game in fact, so make the right ones get rewards make the wrong ones and history repeats..

 

[I'mARealWizard]

Do different teachers have that much of a difference on their students?

 

[Chipfat]

If they make the right decision they do...

 

[@richh87]

Do different teachers have that much of a difference on their students?

They can do - but they can't do it all for them. It has to be a motivator that we hire; and he has to have a clear plan of how we are to score goals - as our current plan is poor.

 

[ccfcway]

is a pilot really needed on a plane ?

 

[covcity4life]

yes they make a difference,cant buy the argument against personally

prandelli playing danielle de rossi as a sweeper vs spain in euro group stage out nowhere was a touch of class, he mopped up everything in an entertaining 1-1 draw.

but yeah other things need to fall into place granted,but its managers responsibility to bring in the right players and motivate them like the secret footballer suggests

new manager must come in,give baker confidence to express himself week in week out.if he fails he needs to get rid and bring someone else in who will do what the manager desires

thorn couldnt motivate and didnt try alternatives,if he couldnt sign new players he could still try diffeent tactics, 3 at back,3 upfront etc.

 

[Chipfat]

If you want to take off and land he is

 

[skyblueman]

If the manager is given a certain degree of freedom then yes they can make a big difference BUT remember our new guys has to work with the squad he has inherited, will have no money and has to take all the existing assistants already in place.. not much scope there I'm afraid and that is why I fear it will ultimately fall flat

 

[scroobiustom]

You could argue that the role of the scouts is more important than given credit- i.e. Taylor/ Clough.

Padrew has Carr at Newcastle he found the better players Cisse, Tiote, Cabaye & now bigi!

So can understand SISU in giving the job to a scout!

 

[oldskyblue58]

Think the manager is just part of the story. If you want success then the manager doesnt have to be the worlds best but he does need to contribute to the set up being greater than the sum of its parts. A decent manager will be able to motivate, to understand, to lead, to know how to achieve things with the assets he has , and have a clear sense of direction or to be able to react to changing circumstances

If the manager doesnt match the other assets at the club then his weakness will detract from the sum of parts in all areas..... but equally you could say the same about the squad, the owners, the finances etc.

 

[skyblueman]

Think the manager is just part of the story. If you want success then the manager doesnt have to be the worlds best but he does need to contribute to the set up being greater than the sum of its parts. A decent manager will be able to motivate, to understand, to lead, to know how to achieve things with the assets he has , and have a clear sense of direction or to be able to react to changing circumstances

If the manager doesnt match the other assets at the club then his weakness will detract from the sum of parts in all areas..... but equally you could say the same about the squad, the owners, the finances etc.

Whoever it is it's a big ask..

Finances... dire
Owners... not financially committed not club focused
Squad... Unknown - poor so far

 

[RichieGunns]

I think that's the thread that runs through the article - its more about having the right bunch of players, with the right attitudes at the right time, where every player plays selflessly for each other fighting for every ball, working hard and the ability to consistently perform.....then all you need is good man management.

I believe we saw a glimpse of that at Birmingham. But they're drive was there because it was a cup match. Not many of them seem to take league 1 very seriously and all these interviews with players at the moment demonstrate one draw within this team. They do not work as a coherent team and they do not care for each other in the way teams that get promoted do. Too many individuals who want their piece of the pie (Macca as an example) and not enough generals willing to sacrifice themselves for their team mates and more importantly, the fans.

In my opinion that is our biggest problem and the one that has dogged this club for about 15 years!

 

[wingy]

I believe we saw a glimpse of that at Birmingham. But they're drive was there because it was a cup match. Not many of them seem to take league 1 very seriously and all these interviews with players at the moment demonstrate one draw within this team. They do not work as a coherent team and they do not care for each other in the way teams that get promoted do. Too many individuals who want their piece of the pie (Macca as an example) and not enough generals willing to sacrifice themselves for their team mates and more importantly, the fans.

In my opinion that is our biggest problem and the one that has dogged this club for about 15 years!

Anyone considered the possibility they recieve their bonus's for the cup games ,and the big demotivator is the loss of league match bonus

 

[Sick Boy]

Anyone considered the possibility they recieve their bonus's for the cup games ,and the big demotivator is the loss of league match bonus

If am sure that they will get a bonus for winning league games, I thought it was just the appearance fee that had been scraped.

There have been quite a few who have previously claimed that managers don't make a difference btw.

 

[ricohman]

Of course they do.

Our managers all through the championship have progressively done a worse job than the previous one, without actually being a worse manager.

What we need is a manager with the fear factor, a headmaster type that if you dont toe the line your expelled as in outta the club or dropped etc.

Although i dont like him, Billy Davies would be perfect if hes finally sick of being unemployed, needs to pay his morgage and joined us