do you all really think its just SISU to blame (1 Viewer)

[wozey]

Ok thank you and goodbye.

you have not seen the last of me, your far to interesting

 

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[GaryPendrysEyes]

youre and too-- Mr. business degree:wave:

 

[cloughie]

i must be talking French or something i don't care what statements have been made by anybody in the press or at the club i have a business degree and know how things work i feel that i made a mistake thinking that people on this forum had enough about them to be open minded and discuss the situation. when it keeps on going down the pan at ccfc don't worry im not going to say i told you so

So you have a business degree and talk about being open minded,

i suggest you open your mind to a few facts ,

congratulations on passing your degree, I take it was just recently

Next step the real world

 

[wozey]

So you have a business degree and talk about being open minded,

i suggest you open your mind to a few facts ,

congratulations on passing your degree, I take it was just recently

Next step the real world

you couldn't be more wrong if you tried, bit of advice don't comment on people you A. have never met and B. know nothing about

 

[lordsummerisle]

I don't blame SISU I blame BR.

Yeah, never on time and the sandwiches were shit.

 

[BANTAM]

im only saying that a club that don't own its ground needs the support of its fans or it dont work simple as that so if we can fill it every week then keep the council in but we cant even half fill the place so how will ANYONE make any money?

Our Council are making a fortune from the concerts and events.

 

[cloughie]

you couldn't be more wrong if you tried, bit of advice don't comment on people you A. have never met and B. know nothing about

I will apologise as you say i don't know you, just an imppression you have given. As I have said try researchijng the facts of the none purchase of the share of the stadium, as you appear to be concentrating on one statement from councillor mutton.

Please explain all the attempts that sisu made to purchase the stadium amd how they have been rebuffed?

 

[Jack Griffin]

you have not seen the last of me, your far to interesting

I think you don't understand the situation here, there is no income to be derived from stadium ownership, it is being used either to pay back the £21M loan the ACL took out to build the stadium or sensibly being ploughed back into developing the stadium business. The club is a very important, but not absolutely essential component of the ACL business plan.

If you are looking for a positive statement then I'd say the ACL management are doing a very good job despite the year long pantomime that their major tenants are putting on.

SISU are not going to get the Arena and anyone who buys it has to pay the market value (which the council & the charity are legally bound to obtain) and due to sound management that value increases year on year.

P.S. Why is it that so many people who have a higher education have a poor standard of English?

 

[Wrenstreetcarpark]

Maybe Wozey is Clarkey with a skinful...

 

[cloughie]

i must be talking French or something i don't care what statements have been made by anybody in the press or at the club

How open minded you are. You are obviously not up for discussion on the facts or are you implying that you have some secret knowledge that has not been disclosed by the press or the club. Now correct me if i am wrong the club is run by sisu, so have they been telling us lies?

I'm waitng for you to tell us so before it goes down the pan then we or even you can save our club

 

[lordsummerisle]

i must be talking French or something i don't care what statements have been made by anybody in the press or at the club

How open minded you are. You are obviously not up for discussion on the facts or are you implying that you have some secret knowledge that has not been disclosed by the press or the club. Now correct me if i am wrong the club is run by sisu, so have they been telling us lies?

I'm waitng for you to tell us so before it goes down the pan then we or even you can save our club

Not saying anything in support of wozey, obviously some sort of idiot or on the wind-up, but this seems to be a site full of people apparently with some secret knowledge that has not been disclosed by the press or club.

Generally though it's taken as seriously as when Moses came down from the Mount bearing his ten stone tablets on here.

 

[wozey]

i must be talking French or something i don't care what statements have been made by anybody in the press or at the club

How open minded you are. You are obviously not up for discussion on the facts or are you implying that you have some secret knowledge that has not been disclosed by the press or the club. Now correct me if i am wrong the club is run by sisu, so have they been telling us lies?

I'm waitng for you to tell us so before it goes down the pan then we or even you can save our club

i don't disagree with what's being said about sisu they are not good for the club now and they never will be. what im trying to get across is that its time that everyone looked at what's wrong with the club and work out how it got in the state its in and never let it happen again. the council as well as sisu need to admit things should have been done better from the start this has not happened over night and its not going to get fixed over night. but one thing i need to say is the most blame is on the shoulders of the stay at home fans

 

[wozey]

Not saying anything in support of wozey, obviously some sort of idiot or on the wind-up, but this seems to be a site full of people apparently with some secret knowledge that has not been disclosed by the press or club.

Generally though it's taken as seriously as when Moses came down from the Mount bearing his ten stone tablets on here.

for the last time i have NO inside info on anything and have never said i have slag me off call me what you like i don't care

 

[Grendel]

firstly i don't like sisu! but im getting angry about the way the council seem to be getting away with destroying the club as much as sisu are. The council told sisu at the start they could get part of the RA, and have since gone back on this and refused to even talk to them about it. its my understanding that sisu had the part or full ownership of the RA as a big part of there business plan and without that it couldn't make money. like it or not sisu are a company that take failing businesses and make them work and sell them on for profit. if a company like this cant make ccfc work then i think we should all worry. the only way ccfc can survive is if the council let the club have a chance to make money regardless if that's sisu or whoever takes over. The council have caused all of this and if sisu sell everything off its possible they don't have any other choice

as i say i don't like SISU and want them out but shouldn't we look at how we ended up in this situation in the first place and stop it happening again?

The real question possibly is if the ground ownership is really that important? Do Manchester City own their Ground? As it was built for the Commonwealth Games I assume not? I think £30 million is quoted as purchase of 50% from the council. As a ROS% that is pitiful in most industry terms - certainly the entertainment industry.
SISU could never make CCFC work. We are a chilling example to any football club who would consider getting involved with SISU. It is fortunate they do not own the ground. As there is zero loyalty from a hedge fund they would sell the land for real estate if the business equation suited.
Perfect reason why Ranson can never be trusted. He knew the score and he and Elliott forced all small shareholders to surrender their stake to this monster therefore losing our local identity for ever.
Conclusion - -your thread is nonsense.

 

[wozey]

The real question possibly is if the ground ownership is really that important? Do Manchester City own their Ground? As it was built for the Commonwealth Games I assume not? I think £30 million is quoted as purchase of 50% from the council. As a ROS% that is pitiful in most industry terms - certainly the entertainment industry.
SISU could never make CCFC work. We are a chilling example to any football club who would consider getting involved with SISU. It is fortunate they do not own the ground. As there is zero loyalty from a hedge fund they would sell the land for real estate if the business equation suited.
Perfect reason why Ranson can never be trusted. He knew the score and he and Elliott forced all small shareholders to surrender their stake to this monster therefore losing our local identity for ever.
Conclusion - -your thread is nonsense.

and so is your post. but thanks anyway

you also can't hold up man city to coventry city they can afford to put money in when needed we can not

 

[shy_tall_knight]

The Ricoh arena has surprised me by being such a commercial sucess, I've been to a few concert events / conferences / charity nights there as well as the corporate hospitality on matchday and its a credit to the city of Coventry. without CCFC the Ricoh would not have been built but without Coventry City Council it wouldn't have been built either. When the decision was made back in 2002/03 to build the stadium CCFC were massively in debt, we were always going to be tenants.

john Mutton a season ticket holder and Coventry city councillor gave an interview and he made it clear that there was no way they (not sure he had the mandate to talk for the whole council but the strength of his feeling was evident) the council would ever consider selling to SISU basically they had fooked up the football not going to let them do the same to the Ricoh Arena. The council have formed this opinion rightly or wrongly but look at the evidence.

• Had a strategy to begin with then after 1 &1/2 seasons cancelled the strategy and started selling the players that were meant to give us the quality to gain promotion. There was no Plan B.
• Have had more movement in the boardroom than in the transfer market.
• Talk about non-existent meetings with the council
• employ the likes of Brody & Diddlydoo

When SISU are gone I'm sure if the next owners can gain the council's trust then there may be a renegotiation of the commercials between the club and the stadium for everyone's long-term interest. You get the feeling the council won't renegotiate cos it may extend SISU's ownership of the club

 

[rob9872]

The thing is if we are to belive that £10m is a 50% stake but only in the ground not in the car park or all of its commercial activities then what price do we put on buying the whole package? Presumably the council are looking for close to £50m which is simply ridiculous and nobody unless resources like Man city would ever consider. The truth is that without it we will always struggle. The rent, the loss of commercial revenue for things like naming rights, the loss of income from matchday food and drink etc not to mention the non-football related income that is missed and we simply can't afford not to have our own ground. Therefore if the council think they can make money without CCFC good luck to them. I would rather any new owners if they had £50m to spend built us a stadium for £25m with a capacity to suit us of about 23,000 and had £25m to spend on the team - even if it means moving into Warwickshire as I doubt the council would give permission for an alternative ground (unless it was a redevelopment of something like the Butts arena)

And before I hear it, yes it cost £113m to build the Ricoh but other clubs have proved it can be done for much less. That £113m included the making the gas works safe and the part that Tescos owned/developed and the land that is yet to be developed.It may not be the Ricoh or have its high standards but it would be ours and it would probably feel tighter and a lot more like home.

 

[wingy]

£58 m. for the entire complex and about the same to deal /buy and clean the land,best hope is devest the ground from the complex ,we retain all income from matchday as we're told its insignificant and no one can say the club is out to asset strip ACL/COUNCIL keep their baby and jobs,pay us rent once a year when they want to put on the concert.

 

[wozey]

The Ricoh arena has surprised me by being such a commercial sucess, I've been to a few concert events / conferences / charity nights there as well as the corporate hospitality on matchday and its a credit to the city of Coventry. without CCFC the Ricoh would not have been built but without Coventry City Council it wouldn't have been built either. When the decision was made back in 2002/03 to build the stadium CCFC were massively in debt, we were always going to be tenants.

john Mutton a season ticket holder and Coventry city councillor gave an interview and he made it clear that there was no way they (not sure he had the mandate to talk for the whole council but the strength of his feeling was evident) the council would ever consider selling to SISU basically they had fooked up the football not going to let them do the same to the Ricoh Arena. The council have formed this opinion rightly or wrongly but look at the evidence.

• Had a strategy to begin with then after 1 &1/2 seasons cancelled the strategy and started selling the players that were meant to give us the quality to gain promotion. There was no Plan B.
• Have had more movement in the boardroom than in the transfer market.
• Talk about non-existent meetings with the council
• employ the likes of Brody & Diddlydoo

When SISU are gone I'm sure if the next owners can gain the council's trust then there may be a renegotiation of the commercials between the club and the stadium for everyone's long-term interest. You get the feeling the council won't renegotiate cos it may extend SISU's ownership of the club

thanks for your reply

im told that the meetings had been agreed but the council didn't want to know about ownership of the RA and got upset about the club going public about the meeting, im also told that at the very start sisu asked if it would be possible to obtain the RA in the future and they had been told that yes it was an option. and if there was no plan B i would be very surprised as groups like sisu try there best to minimise risk playing a high risk game. it just dose not hold water this argument that sisu want the club to fail this will have long lasting repercussions for them in the future and will effect them

everyone wants someone to blame for everything but sometimes its everyone thats to blame

 

[rob9872]

Welcome wozey. Are you Howzer or is that too obvious?

 

[lordsummerisle]

thanks for your reply

im told that the meetings had been agreed but the council didn't want to know about ownership of the RA and got upset about the club going public about the meeting, im also told that at the very start sisu asked if it would be possible to obtain the RA in the future and they had been told that yes it was an option. and if there was no plan B i would be very surprised as groups like sisu try there best to minimise risk playing a high risk game. it just dose not hold water this argument that sisu want the club to fail this will have long lasting repercussions for them in the future and will effect them

everyone wants someone to blame for everything but sometimes its everyone thats to blame

No insider information there then?

Jesus Tittyfucking Christ

 

[wozey]

No insider information there then?

Jesus Tittyfucking Christ

no its all public knowledge its not secret info, its out there just look and ask

 

[Grendel]

no its all public knowledge its not secret info, its out there just look and ask

I don't think it is. However, as you are in the know tell me how owning the ground would ultimately now help the football club. SISU would have taken signficant loans to fund the purchase of the ground which would ultimately mean higher debt incurred, As by your own admission their sole interest is to make money quickly this aim would then harder to achieve without promotion. SISU thought the purchase would be an opportunity to get into the premiership which makes significant returns regardless of whether they own the ground or not. If they did own it all this would now do is make shifting them even more difficult as they would have a a true asset to trade with.
As you clearly know more than me what is the % ROS of the ground per annum -- I reckon less than 5%.

 

[Paxman II]

Wozey it's old ground and clearly you lack knowledge and facts on the matter. SBT has dissected this subject enough for it to get boring.

 

[wozey]

I don't think it is. However, as you are in the know tell me how owning the ground would ultimately now help the football club. SISU would have taken signficant loans to fund the purchase of the ground which would ultimately mean higher debt incurred, As by your own admission their sole interest is to make money quickly this aim would then harder to achieve without promotion. SISU thought the purchase would be an opportunity to get into the premiership which makes significant returns regardless of whether they own the ground or not. If they did own it all this would now do is make shifting them even more difficult as they would have a a true asset to trade with.
As you clearly know more than me what is the % ROS of the ground per annum -- I reckon less than 5%.

well it depends on the plan sisu have going forward, now i feel sisu will go and now have no interest in the RA but anyone taking over (if thats the plan) would need deep pockets if the arrangement stays how it is. and to be fair i can never see the council giving up the RA and i feel that is the key to everything. no matter what the cost or how long it takes for a return the club needs part of the RA

 

[wozey]

Wozey it's old ground and clearly you lack knowledge and facts on the matter. SBT has dissected this subject enough for it to get boring.

im not the one starting talking about this i simply asked is it fair sisu take all the blame and do the council have something to answer for

sorry if your bored

 

[Astute]

i must be talking French or something i don't care what statements have been made by anybody in the press or at the club i have a business degree and know how things work i feel that i made a mistake thinking that people on this forum had enough about them to be open minded and discuss the situation. when it keeps on going down the pan at ccfc don't worry im not going to say i told you so

Business degree? Did it come out of a Kelloggs box?

Thought you had to know how to put sentences together to get one. SISU have done very badly at our club. Did they get their business degrees from the same place as yourself?

 

[SkyBlueGuy]

If you are making the arguement that SISU have failed because they hae not been able to buy the RA then I'm not sure why you point the blame at the council? If SISU were serious about buying it they would have taken their option to buy the share owned by the Higgs trust surely? The council (as far as I'm aware) have no say I whether they cam do this or not.

In my opinion even if the council had agreed to sell their share (even if try changed their minds right now) SISU would not have invested the money. I they were serious they would have baught the Higgs share, this would have proven without a doubt their commitment to the club. But they didn't.

Is that the fault of the council? Is it not their responcibility to the fans to ensure that they do not just sell to any old pirates?

SBG

 

[covcity4life]

i can see what OP means,council will p[robably refuse to sell to hoffman too

 

[ashbyjan]

And council is perfectly within its rights to do so - without the council there would be no Ricoh at all as the club, under Richardson, had completely screwed up the project and it was in real danger of folding. The council rescued it and now has a valuable asset which it has to manage for the good of all the citizens of Coventry, not just the 5% of the population who attend every other week. They must ensure that any prospective purchasers will not only manage the existing business properly but also has the vision, funds and ambition to continue the expansion and development of the sight for the benefit of the community, creating jobs etc. SISU patently could not do this and if Hoffmans group cannot either then the Council is right not to sell. I believe the stance of the Higgs Charity is similar. Both not only have a moral obligation but a legal one not to just give the complex away to just any Tom, Joy or Gary who simply stumps up some cash.

I this whole sorry saga the council is probably the least to blame - start the blame at the feet of Richardson, Robinson, Hover, McGinnity then Ranson and our current incompetents SISU.

 

[oldskyblue58]

Ok some facts

The Ricoh is owned on a long lease by ACL (a company owned jointly by the council & Higgs Charity)
The council own the freehold - it could be sold but would cost market value.
There is an option, owned by CCFC Ltd, to purchase the Higgs Charity shares in ACL at £10m with a time limit on that option.
The council can veto the sale of any shares in ACL, but so can the Charity
The club do not need to purchase the shares to obtain new income - they could purchase the income stream (eg all the board adverts round the ground or the fast food outlets) The Club choose not to do that.
Buying the Charity's shares in ACL will give the club ZERO income for at least the next 10 years. the only way the club could get income is via a dividend at the moment any distribution would be illegal due to accumulated losses in ACL to date
The shareholders of ACL are happy to discuss a sale of some or all of the shares if certain criteria are met, proof of funds, transparency of ownership, sufficient funds to develop the site further, viability of business. Presently the club would fail on all aspects and any potential new owner can only prove viability by having time as owners.

Lets be clear the club had sold Highfield Road and got in a financial mess long before the council or charity became involved. Without the the council & charity there would have been no stadium what so ever. Ground share the only option to save the club from extinction - where exactly ? To build a new stadium now would be very difficult - for starters the club doesnt have the money, an alternative site isnt available, oh and within Coventry the council control planning permission (hardly likely to see a case for another stadium are they), outside city boundaries is largely green belt other authorities unlikely to give permission etc etc etc.

For at least 15+ years the various boards of directors have made decisions that have created the mess that is CCFC - they spent money they did not have, they wasted money they borrowed, they put the club at risk - the council were never involved in the management of the club, they never made those decisions that led to financial melt down of a privately owned company.

ACL do not rely on the football club to survive - the club provides less than 17% of ACL income. To lose that income would hurt yes but it would not mean the stadium went bust or that at least in part the income could not be replaced by alternatives. It used to be 85% but good management has led to not only profits but reduced risk from bad tenants

Both the council and charity have repeatedly said how much they want the Club to succeed - there is no agenda to see the club fail on their part. But the correct and only business decision is to protect and safeguard the asset that is the Ricoh - thats for the whole community not just a few passionate supporters!

Some here including the OP seem to think the Council owe the Club something - why? We have a catchment area of over 400K people and get far less than 25K turning up to financially support the team please explain why the council should give the stadium away to a group of people that are very much a minority and to a club that has been so badly managed that near bankruptcy has become a way of life. The Ricoh Stadium is far more than CCFC why should the council and people of Coventry give away such a valuable asset. If you are saying sell at market value now that is different but I would refer you to the shareholders criteria above for that to happen

Had the club owned the ground then I think you would have seen it mortgaged to the hilt, any income derived from it used to service debt, and almost perversely more vulnerable to administration because banks and other creditors would have had something to go for

The Council and Charity are absolutely right to safeguard the ownership of the stadium. Any new owner has to match their criteria and safeguard the stadium for ALL the people of Coventry.

The mess that CCFC are in goes back decades in its source and building, SISU have compounded that. The council are not in the business of running football clubs, they are not allowed to be nor is the Charity. The only way you can argue that it is as much Councils fault as SISU's or the previous owners is if you think they should write off millions to a financially mismanaged, under achieving, often arrogant, selfish, egotistical organisation. Isnt a very good reason is it.

You can claim not to be in the know if you wish - but do the research, the information is there if you care to look at it. To blame the Council for the mess CCFC is in and class them with SISU is simply unreasonable in my opinion

 

[Wrenstreetcarpark]

Ashbyjan and OSB58 thank you for two of the most sensible posts for ages.

 

[Tankie]

"Are Sisu to blame"
Well yes, I feel they are, Firstly they are guilty of default,
By defaulting on the promises and pledges they made, on taking over the club, promises that never materialised.
Then, instead of building on the foundations, of several
Quality players, they sold the"Foundations"and stopped the Building work, and from that declaration of intent, it has been Downhill ever since.
Plainly, they were in way over their heads, Whoever advised them, on the Advantages of football club ownership
must have omitted telling them, that it is a certain money loser, and the heat in the kitchen was far too High, for this opportunist bunch of chancers.
So yes! I blame Sisu, not the absent Fans, not the string of managers, who have kept the managers office door spinning like a childs Top, and neither the Council, I mean "Would you really be Comfortable, with them selling to a consortium, who regulary Come out with Questionable Definitions of the truth, the Council, helped to fund, the building of the Ricoh without them, it would not have been Finished, so it amazes me to read Some forumites,Blaming the Council, for not handing them a valuable asset of public ownership for a fraction of its true Value.
And does anyone on here, believe that the cash streams,generated by the Ricoh, would be used to improve things on the Pitch, why on earth would people think that!
REgards Tank Top.."no Business Degree"

 

[LeamingtonBootBoy]

Some of the comments on this thread have made me chuckle.....

If some on here are so wise to the ways and workings of a hedge fund (which is not an international secret), why did they support the SISU takeover and urge the shareholders to give these up for nothing to these people????

On the CET forum we had some post-ers who were almost wanking over SISU taking over.....even though anyone with an ounce of business knowledge would have warned of the perils of being associated/owned by a Hedge fund.

 

[Godiva]

Some of the comments on this thread have made me chuckle.....

If some on here are so wise to the ways and workings of a hedge fund (which is not an international secret), why did they support the SISU takeover and urge the shareholders to give these up for nothing to these people????

On the CET forum we had some post-ers who were almost wanking over SISU taking over.....even though anyone with an ounce of business knowledge would have warned of the perils of being associated/owned by a Hedge fund.

From Wiki:

A hedge fund is an investment fund that can undertake a wider range of investment and trading activities than other funds, but which is only open for investment from particular types of investors specified by regulators. These investors are typically institutions, such as pension funds, university endowments and foundations, or high net worth individuals. As a class, hedge funds invest in a diverse range of assets, but they most commonly trade liquid securities on public markets. They also employ a wide variety of investment strategies, and make use of techniques such as short selling and leverage.
The value of an investment in a hedge fund is calculated as a share of the fund's net asset value, meaning that increases and decreases in the value of the fund's assets (and fund expenses) are directly reflected in the amount an investor can later withdraw.
Most hedge fund investment strategies aim to achieve a positive return on investment whether markets are rising or falling. Hedge fund managers typically invest their own money in the fund they manage, which serves to align their interests with investors in the fund. A hedge fund typically pays its investment manager a management fee, that is designed to cover the operational costs of the manager, and a performance fee if the fund's net asset value increases during the year. Some hedge funds have a net asset value of several billions dollars. As of 2009, hedge funds represented 1.1% of the total funds and assets held by financial institutions. The estimated size of the global hedge fund industry is US$1.9 trillion.
Because hedge funds are not sold to the public or retail investors, the funds and their managers have historically not been subject to the same restrictions that govern other funds and investment fund managers with regard to how the fund may be structured and how strategies and techniques are employed. Regulations passed in the United States and Europe after the 2008 credit crisis are intended to increase government oversight of hedge funds and eliminate certain regulatory gaps.