Do you want to discuss boring politics? (82 Viewers)

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Or the Labour Party are now the Tory Party under a red rossette with Sir Softie the true new Cameron

See a trend here? Tories calling their Conversative government ‘socialist’ for lacking a conservative agenda. Likewise, you’ll have Starmer’s Labour government be branded ‘Tory-lite’ this time next year just as Tony Blair was.

The ‘state’ is too big and public sector too unproductive for any reformist government, left or right.

It’s obviously not a problem for Labour, yet.

 

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[shmmeee]

Okay, I’ll get the crayons out too. Sunak’s small boat/Rwanda policy isn’t cutting through except with the biggest frothers who were most likely going to vote for anyone but Labour anyway. The message you’re talking about is being lost anyway in the noise about Labour welcoming a far right nutter into the party with a history of victim blaming and trying to influence legal proceedings. It’s an own goal, a hollow victory, is more negative than positive. A mistake.

There are two parts to electoral strategy: get your vote out and depress theirs.

The people on this thread are as far from swing voters as it gets. This will be seen by the vast majority as “Tory Dover MP defects to Labour”.

 

[PVA]

There are two parts to electoral strategy: get your vote out and depress theirs.

The people on this thread are as far from swing voters as it gets. This will be seen by the vast majority as “Tory Dover MP defects to Labour”.

Yes I said right at the start of this debate yesterday, the average voter on the street has no idea who Elphicke is, what she stands for, what happened with her husband’s case, they just see a Tory defecting to Labour - that’s literally it to Joe public.

 

[PVA]

Also surely, surely, people can see what Lammy was doing with the Trump thing.

 

[skybluetony176]

So why accept her then given her track record?
You OK with the way she behaved towards her husbands victims?

On the morning Labour announce a ban of fire and rehire the day after they accept a Tory into the ranks who is on the record telling her constituents and ex P&O employees that Tory policy is definitely not to blame for them losing their jobs and was roundly heckled and criticised in Dover for saying so. Even locally this might not prove to be a vote winner. She ain’t popular with some Dover constituents for that reason alone. Could her defection cost Labour Dover? Not within the realms of impossibility. Like I said earlier. I’m not sure who her defection was designed to damage. Starmer or Sunak.

 

[clint van damme]

On the morning Labour announce a ban of fire and rehire the day after they accept a Tory into the ranks who is on the record telling her constituents and ex P&O employees that Tory policy is definitely not to blame for them losing their jobs and was roundly heckled and criticised in Dover for saying so. Even locally this might not prove to be a vote winner. She ain’t popular with some Dover constituents for that reason alone. Could her defection cost Labour Dover? Not within the realms of impossibility. Like I said earlier. I’m not sure who her defection was designed to damage. Starmer or Sunak.

Good post, though the boats thing isn't my issue with her, and I sense a few people agree with me listening to 5live this morning.

 

[skybluetony176]

There are two parts to electoral strategy: get your vote out and depress theirs.

The people on this thread are as far from swing voters as it gets. This will be seen by the vast majority as “Tory Dover MP defects to Labour”.

A Tory MP who isn’t as popular as some think in her own constituency following her defence of Tory policy when P&O workers were sacked at a moments notice so they could hire foreign workers on less than minimum wage. Truth is the only reason she got such a majority in the last GE was because the Brexit party pulled out of Dover. I’d say it’s a reasonable argument that those votes will either stay with the Tories or go to reform regardless of her defection.

 

[shmmeee]

A Tory MP who isn’t as popular as some think in her own constituency following her defence of Tory policy when P&O workers were sacked at a moments notice so they could hire foreign workers on less than minimum wage. Truth is the only reason she got such a majority in the last GE was because the Brexit party pulled out of Dover. I’d say it’s a reasonable argument that those votes will either stay with the Tories or go to reform regardless of her defection.

This is purely an air war thing. She’s never going to be up for election as a Labour MP so what her constituents think doesn’t really matter.

The intended effect is to bolster thoughts among those on the right that care about immigration that the Tories aren’t up to it. Or as I’ve shown that they’re so left wing and moderate they’ve got a bunch of Labour MPs in waiting. Which either makes them stay home or vote Reform.

Labour doesn’t need to fire up the base. Their target seats are now heavily Tory. The aim is to push Tory voters in Tory strongholds to stay home or vote Lib Dem/Reform and let Labour in.

 

[Grendel]

Yes I said right at the start of this debate yesterday, the average voter on the street has no idea who Elphicke is, what she stands for, what happened with her husband’s case, they just see a Tory defecting to Labour - that’s literally it to Joe public.

People can read. It’s been all over the news - are you serious - you and Sir Softie related by any chance?

 

[skybluetony176]

This is purely an air war thing. She’s never going to be up for election as a Labour MP so what her constituents think doesn’t really matter.

The intended effect is to bolster thoughts among those on the right that care about immigration that the Tories aren’t up to it. Or as I’ve shown that they’re so left wing and moderate they’ve got a bunch of Labour MPs in waiting. Which either makes them stay home or vote Reform.

Labour doesn’t need to fire up the base. Their target seats are now heavily Tory. The aim is to push Tory voters in Tory strongholds to stay home or vote Lib Dem/Reform and let Labour in.

She’s going to campaign for Labour on doorsteps in Dover though. What reaction do you think she’ll get on the doorstep of anyone connected to anyone locally who lost their job with P&O. How is she going to be a campaigning asset for Labour in Dover? She’s not going to be backing policies of Reform or the Tories for that matter on immigration which has always had a big cut through in Dover and truer to her own ideology. When you look at even a local level it’s difficult to see how accepting her into the ranks is going to be a campaigning asset. Where’s the gain to a Labour campaign even on a local level?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I used to think it was a good idea but I don't see what value is added by forcing millions of disinterested or ill informed people into the ballot box.

Isn't that just the electorate in general?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

But her defection isn’t enough to make a meaningful difference in a vote if all tories vote with the whip. Having slept on it it makes less sense than it did yesterday. If she’d gone and worked Tice’s company I’d have understood her quitting the Tories, she’s right up their street. No sign she’s had a road to Damascus conversion to the left. I’m not sure who she intended to do the most damage too by defecting. Sunak or Starmer.

I've been trying to understand her reasons for defecting. As she's not up for re-election it's not like she's trying to save her job. Ideologically she's on the right so unlikely to agree with much of Labour policy. If she was staying in politics I'd suggest Reform would be more suited to her.

Which does leave the tiniest possibility it is to undermine Labour and Starmer? As others have said she's unpopular in her constituency due to fire and hire, which wouldn't look good for a Labour MP. And so far I'm seeing far more criticism of Starmer over her joining and how he lacks principles than I have of Tories having an MP defect to Labour due to unhappiness over immigration/small boats. All for the sake of having an extra MP for a few months.

I'd say this is more damaging to Labour than it is to the Tories.

 

[PVA]

People can read. It’s been all over the news - are you serious - you and Sir Softie related by any chance?

Yes they can read and some people will but most won't. Most people don't care. That's the point.

 

[Philosoraptor]

Every proponent of a political ideology requires total policy adherence before they’ll accept their idealised version doesn’t work. They’ll no true Scotsman any and every implementation that could be termed an example of their ideology. For anything in a mixed economy they will claim the good things are caused by adherence to their policy ideals and the bad things by deviation and what’s needed is purity.

If by chance they do get in a position to achieve this they will scare the bejeezus out of voters because they will require a significant change and each change creates winners and losers and makes people fear they’ll be losers. So the more change the more opposition at worst and uncertainty at best. Also as you approach one persons idea of purity, by definition you move further from those who were previously your close allies and arguments with them intensify.

This then leads to defeat, which is then blamed on external malign forces (the anti growth coalition, the neoliberal right wing press) to ensure we can maintain the belief in ideological purity.

This includes various flavours of centrism before anyone says something. It’s a human trait not one particular to an ideology.

Absolute waffle

 

[Nick]

Not really that relevant but i saw that bloke who wanted to be the West Mids Mayor based on Palestine the other week stood on a pickup on Foleshill road with a hype man acting like he was a mega star. Loads of rented supercars parked up blocking the road.

It was weird!

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

In the meantime interest of balance a good news Labour story broke this morning but is probably being drowned out by the Elphicke story.

Labour has promised Unions that it will outlaw fire and hire. Along with the commitment to repeal the Tories minimum service level bill (yay for Brexit) some improvements in workers rights are on the way under a labour government. Within the first 100 days apparently.

All of the anti union legislation passed since 2010 needs to be repealed as a bare minimum.

 

[shmmeee]

What’s with “Sir Softie” anyway? Has there been some ice cream related scandal I’ve missed?

 

[shmmeee]

Absolute waffle

Course it is. That’s why you can’t rebut it.

 

[clint van damme]

What’s with “Sir Softie” anyway? Has there been some ice cream related scandal I’ve missed?

That's what Elphick once called him

 

[StrettoBoy]

Compulsory voting and PR.

We are obliged to pay tax, observe speed limits etc.

We should be obliged to participate in choosing who decides the big stuff too.

Not voting is NOT a rational choice.
Not voting is the act of a coward, a coward who can point the finger at everyone else and smugly say " not in my name"

Non voters are wankers.

I disagree.

The right to abstain is just as much a part of the democratic process as the right to vote.

I regard it as important to vote and have always done so, even in the low level elections such as for the parish council, but if people don't want to that is their right.

I think they are wrong but they shouldn't be forced to vote.

 

[CCFCSteve]

That's what Elphick once called him

Bedroom chat

 

[shmmeee]

That's what Elphick once called him

Seems like it was yet more comedy genius from The Sun/CCHQ

‘Sir Softy’: Starmer insult makes it from Sun headline to PMQs | Keir Starmer | The Guardian

Rishi Sunak’s attempt to attack Labour leader on crime borrows from report about foreign-national criminals

amp.theguardian.com

 

[fernandopartridge]

Completely vacuous

 

[fernandopartridge]

No Kier, it's #GetTheToriesOut not #GetTheToriesIn you silly

 

[Grendel]

Seems like it was yet more comedy genius from The Sun/CCHQ

‘Sir Softy’: Starmer insult makes it from Sun headline to PMQs | Keir Starmer | The Guardian

Rishi Sunak’s attempt to attack Labour leader on crime borrows from report about foreign-national criminals

amp.theguardian.com

It was in her articles she used to scribe for the Morning Star - sorry I mean the Daily Express

 

[skybluetony176]

In the words of Mark and Lard, whoooo!



SNP in opposition is a distinct possibility based on that (yes I know that the polls will narrow and the Tories will end up with more than 13 MP’s at the next GE). Although I suspect the SNP to take a hit at the next GE also. Has there ever been a coalition opposition before? What happens if non of the parties on the opposition benches don’t have the numbers to form a shadow cabinet?

 

[Grendel]

In the words of Mark and Lard, whoooo!



SNP in opposition is a distinct possibility based on that (yes I know that the polls will narrow and the Tories will end up with more than 13 MP’s at the next GE). Although I suspect the SNP to take a hit at the next GE also. Has there ever been a coalition opposition before? What happens if non of the parties on the opposition benches don’t have the numbers to form a shadow cabinet?

They should all sign up for Starmers new Labour Party to keep their seats

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

In the words of Mark and Lard, whoooo!



SNP in opposition is a distinct possibility based on that (yes I know that the polls will narrow and the Tories will end up with more than 13 MP’s at the next GE). Although I suspect the SNP to take a hit at the next GE also. Has there ever been a coalition opposition before? What happens if non of the parties on the opposition benches don’t have the numbers to form a shadow cabinet?

Do polls like this factor in the new electoral boundaries?

 

[Grendel]

I can’t profess to care very much but surely it’s now beyond parody Dianne Abbott can’t be re-admitted to Labour when a bat shit right wing MP who defends misogyny is welcomed with open arms

 

[skybluetony176]

Do polls like this factor in the new electoral boundaries?

I would assume so but on those numbers I doubt it would make much difference. The one thing it doesn’t seem to factor in is independents running on the Gaza issue. Pretty clear that issue has the potential to damage Labour votes disproportionately to other parties. I can’t see it being a big enough issue to stop a labour majority but I wouldn’t be surprised if it costs them a seat or two too the benefit of the Tories.

 

[Sick Boy]

I can’t profess to care very much but surely it’s now beyond parody Dianne Abbott can’t be re-admitted to Labour when a bat shit right wing MP who defends misogyny is welcomed with open arms

I'm sure a couple of the flip-floppers on here will be along soon to trot out some excuses.

 

[fernandopartridge]

I can’t profess to care very much but surely it’s now beyond parody Dianne Abbott can’t be re-admitted to Labour when a bat shit right wing MP who defends misogyny is welcomed with open arms

it's a broad church as long as you are right wing

 

[fernandopartridge]

TBH though, I've switched off on politics as parliament is in a sort of zombie mode at the minute and it's generally depressing anyway. Let's wait until Labour is elected and see what they come up with.

 

[fernandopartridge]

What would Labour have lost by telling Elphicke to get fucked?



They've recruited somebody who appears to think she and her family are above the law. It's just bizarre.

 

[PVA]

TBH though, I've switched off on politics as parliament is in a sort of zombie mode at the minute and it's generally depressing anyway. Let's wait until Labour is elected and see what they come up with.

This I agree with.