Do you want to discuss boring politics? (139 Viewers)

[shmmeee]

I can understand needing to ‘pivot’ more away from your core values if the opposition is in strong shape, but this Tory government is as weak as possible and widely disliked. You have license to try and offer something more bold and transformative for people.

I think he’s naturally cautious and desperately wants to not only win but grind the Tories into the dust.

Your “bold and transformative” is someone else’s “crazy and scary”. And if you tend to live in safe seat areas and the crazy and scary people tend to live in target seats, then the scary crazies win every time.

 

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

I think he’s naturally cautious and desperately wants to not only win but grind the Tories into the dust.

Your “bold and transformative” is someone else’s “crazy and scary”. And if you tend to live in safe seat areas and the crazy and scary people tend to live in target seats, then the scary crazies win every time.

I don't think I do live in a safe seat by any measure.

 

[Skybluekyle]

I don't think I do live in a safe seat by any measure.

I'm not in a safe seat either. I built it myself and it feels a little wobbly!

Sorry, I'll go now...

 

[Grendel]

I will now vote - and I will vote Green Party

 

[skybluetony176]

I will now vote - and I will vote Green Party

So you’re voting for the only party with a rejoin the EU policy. Interesting. How long have you been a bregreter?

 

[eyesee]

Does anyone think they should be?

Most left wing people complain centrist Labour are too harsh on the poor, I’ve got to say yours is a rare take.

agreed, i probably do have a rare take on things. not sure i fit in with anything on offer at the moment. will definitely be voting for the least worse, i just need to work out what that is at present.

not sure the current labour party are that centralist, really. far too many corbynites still in place.
labour are as divided as they ever were. don't forget there was even talk of the far left breaking away when corbyn was forced upon the party. that hasn't gone away, it just went quiet. i expect it to show itself again before long.

not a golden age in politics.

 

[eyesee]

Yeah, leave the not working but get loads of money for doing nothing to the spoilt rich inheritance kids!

no, the rich have had it too good as well. something else i blame labour for, tbh.
they abandoned the working man in at both ends of the scale. they obviously thought they had the working man in their pocket, so went after the non-workers vote, and too many of the middle class. all at our expense.

lots of loopholes that need closing. just ask angela rayner. she knows her way around the system.

 

[Ian1779]

no, the rich have had it too good as well. something else i blame labour for, tbh.
they abandoned the working man in at both ends of the scale. they obviously thought they had the working man in their pocket, so went after the non-workers vote, and too many of the middle class. all at our expense.

lots of loopholes that need closing. just ask angela rayner. she knows her way around the system.

What is it exactly you want for the ‘working man’?

 

[eyesee]

1, i'd like to see our money better spent. the nhs is a good example. the solution is to not throw more money at it, it's to stop wasting money in the way it is now. it seems to me that as soon as suppliers know things are for the nhs the price goes up. this needs sorting.
2, i think it's absurd that, if you have a job, you're highly unlikely to get free dental care. so, we pay for it for everyone else, and then have to pay for it again for ourselves. wtf?!!
3, policies like "breakfast clubs for all kids" seem to miss the fact that not all kids need me to buy breakfast for them. why are we expected to pay for breakfast for the kids of millionaires, just because it might win a few votes?
4, winter fuel payments. people who don't even live in the uk still get these payments?
5, accommodation for asylum seekers. currently £8m a day, or something like that. we need to invest in a system that will hear asylum cases within days of someone arriving in this country. not months, or even years.
6, i think the level of benefits you are allowed to claim if you find yourself out of work should be linked to what you have paid in.
7, tax loopholes need to be closed. for instance, if i buy a book from amazon, and it's delivered from a warehouse in the uk, using uk roads, how the fuck did that transaction take place in another country?

i could go on, but i haven't had my tea yet.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

1, i'd like to see our money better spent. the nhs is a good example. the solution is to not throw more money at it, it's to stop wasting money in the way it is now. it seems to me that as soon as suppliers know things are for the nhs the price goes up. this needs sorting.
2, i think it's absurd that, if you have a job, you're highly unlikely to get free dental care. so, we pay for it for everyone else, and then have to pay for it again for ourselves. wtf?!!
3, policies like "breakfast clubs for all kids" seem to miss the fact that not all kids need me to buy breakfast for them. why are we expected to pay for breakfast for the kids of millionaires, just because it might win a few votes?
4, winter fuel payments. people who don't even live in the uk still get these payments?
5, accommodation for asylum seekers. currently £8m a day, or something like that. we need to invest in a system that will hear asylum cases within days of someone arriving in this country. not months, or even years.
6, i think the level of benefits you are allowed to claim if you find yourself out of work should be linked to what you have paid in.
7, tax loopholes need to be closed. for instance, if i buy a book from amazon, and it's delivered from a warehouse in the uk, using uk roads, how the fuck did that transaction take place in another country?

i could go on, but i haven't had my tea yet.

1. Fair, although there is a big issue with the pay of nurses and doctors plus the requirement of nurses to pay for their own training which was previously not the case.

2. Can you explain?

3. A universal policy ensures that nobody falls through the cracks and that everyone who has a need automatically qualifies.

4. Do they?

5. Fair

6. So someone unable to find work at 18 should get £0? Most people out of work do not *want* to be out of work.

7. Fair

 

[eyesee]

1. Fair, although there is a big issue with the pay of nurses and doctors plus the requirement of nurses to pay for their own training which was previously not the case.

2. Can you explain?

3. A universal policy ensures that nobody falls through the cracks and that everyone who has a need automatically qualifies.

4. Do they?

5. Fair

6. So someone unable to find work at 18 should get £0? Most people out of work do not *want* to be out of work.

7. Fair

1, agreed. some of the savings made should go to nurses and doctors pay.
2, i've paid income tax (along with all the other taxes we all pay) for nearly 40 years, yet i don't qualify for free dental care, apparently. doesn't seem fair to me.
3, universal polices aren't fair. don't give money to people who just don't need it. it's not the govs money to give.
4, yes. friends of my mother live in spain, but still get winter fuel payments. (and they are not scamming the system, they're entitled to them, apparently.)
6, i didn't say they should get zero, but they should get less. i know of people who have never done a days work in their life, but live in a bigger house than me, drive a newer car than me, and never seem to be short of money.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

1, agreed. some of the savings made should go to nurses and doctors pay.
2, i've paid income tax (along with all the other taxes we all pay) for nearly 40 years, yet i don't qualify for free dental care, apparently. doesn't seem fair to me.
3, universal polices aren't fair. don't give money to people who just don't need it. it's not the govs money to give.
4, yes. friends of my mother live in spain, but still get winter fuel payments. (and they are not scamming the system, they're entitled to them, apparently.)
6, i didn't say they should get zero, but they should get less. i know of people who have never done a days work in their life, but live in a bigger house than me, drive a newer car than me, and never seem to be short of money.

We have universal health care and education, despite not everyone having the same need or want. In my view, it's better for a few people who don't strictly need a service to use it than to have many more need it and not use it.

Being unemployed is much less likely to be a lifestyle choice than it is a serious problem for the individual.

 

[eyesee]

We have universal health care and education, despite not everyone having the same need or want. In my view, it's better for a few people who don't strictly need a service to use it than to have many more need it and not use it.

Being unemployed is much less likely to be a lifestyle choice than it is a serious problem for the individual.

we don't seem to have universal health care. i work, so don't get dental care. people who i know who don't work, do. that's not fair.
breakfast clubs for school kids isn't really an educational thing. it's an attempt to win votes, at the expense of the working man. it can't be too difficult to have this in place foc for people who need it, and charge those who still want to use the service but can afford to pay for it. not means testing things like this is unfair, and just plain wrong.

lots of people who an unemployed want to work. there's a lot of unfulfilled jobs out there, so you'd think it would be easy enough to match those up. i'm talking about the others, where a bit of encouragement is needed to get them working.
i genuinely think people benefit from working. the dignity of labour, and all that. there's some people who have never experienced that.

 

[SBAndy]

6, i didn't say they should get zero, but they should get less. i know of people who have never done a days work in their life, but live in a bigger house than me, drive a newer car than me, and never seem to be short of money.

And you think that’s as a result of benefits?

 

[Terry Gibson's perm]

All 18 year olds will be glad that Sunak is going to lose after that statement tonight.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

we don't seem to have universal health care. i work, so don't get dental care. people who i know who don't work, do. that's not fair.
breakfast clubs for school kids isn't really an educational thing. it's an attempt to win votes, at the expense of the working man. it can't be too difficult to have this in place foc for people who need it, and charge those who still want to use the service but can afford to pay for it. not means testing things like this is unfair, and just plain wrong.

lots of people who an unemployed want to work. there's a lot of unfulfilled jobs out there, so you'd think it would be easy enough to match those up. i'm talking about the others, where a bit of encouragement is needed to get them working.
i genuinely think people benefit from working. the dignity of labour, and all that. there's some people who have never experienced that.

Well we do have it in the sense of you being able to go to a hospital and not be charged for services. Though let’s turn around your argument on dental care.

Why should I, as someone who doesn’t need dental treatment, have to contribute towards a service I don’t need? Why do people without children pay towards state education, people who oppose nuclear deterrents pay towards their upkeep, and so on and so forth?

 

[chiefdave]

1. Fair, although there is a big issue with the pay of nurses and doctors plus the requirement of nurses to pay for their own training which was previously not the case.

My ex worked for the NHS and from what I saw where she worked we're paying a small fortune for doctors and nurses. Only problem is the money isn't going to doctors and nurses.

Budgets get cut, staff employed & paid directly by the NHS are laid of, or aren't replaced as people leave. Management realises they don't have enough staff to ensure minimum service levels. Staff, in many cases the same staff, are bought in on temporary contracts via agencies at much higher cost than when they were employed by the NHS, the extra money is kept by the agency.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I will now vote - and I will vote Green Party

I know you've mentioned this before and although I know it predominantly for their stance of animal cruelty I do wonder how they don't get more votes than they do. It's fair to say you and I are from different ends of the political spectrum but I'd vote for them as well.

Obviously I like their environmental policies and I think their economic policy on the whole is very progressive, but people aren't ready for such a major change and (for fear of sounding a bit Liz Truss) I can't see the markets accepting it. Though I do think they can get too bogged down in stuff like gender politics.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I know you've mentioned this before and although I know it predominantly for their stance of animal cruelty I do wonder how they don't get more votes than they do. It's fair to say you and I are from different ends of the political spectrum but I'd vote for them as well.

Obviously I like their environmental policies and I think their economic policy on the whole is very progressive, but people aren't ready for such a major change and (for fear of sounding a bit Liz Truss) I can't see the markets accepting it. Though I do think they can get too bogged down in stuff like gender politics.

People are reluctant to vote for them if they don’t think the party has much chance of winning and a vote for them will allow someone else to get in.

In Leamington and Warwick they might actually have a shot so who knows.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

1, agreed. some of the savings made should go to nurses and doctors pay.
2, i've paid income tax (along with all the other taxes we all pay) for nearly 40 years, yet i don't qualify for free dental care, apparently. doesn't seem fair to me.
3, universal polices aren't fair. don't give money to people who just don't need it. it's not the govs money to give.
4, yes. friends of my mother live in spain, but still get winter fuel payments. (and they are not scamming the system, they're entitled to them, apparently.)
6, i didn't say they should get zero, but they should get less. i know of people who have never done a days work in their life, but live in a bigger house than me, drive a newer car than me, and never seem to be short of money.

I think the 'problem' is that you appear to think of everything from a personal perspective rather than a 'what is best overall'.

Saying "I've done this but someone else hasn't but they get this so why is that fair?" isn't thinking big enough. What matters is whether something makes life and society better overall. Hence why people like me see things like crime and drugs more along rehabilitation and prevention rather than punishment. It goes against the sensibilities we've been brought up with but evidence of countries that follow that mindset are better off.

 

[Ian1779]

All 18 year olds will be glad that Sunak is going to lose after that statement tonight.

It’s an absolutely batshit mental thing to come out with.

 

[chiefdave]

It’s an absolutely batshit mental thing to come out with.

Its totally nuts. first off how does he thing that's going to play with young voters, is this an admission that they've totally given up on getting votes from the younger generation?

But the proposal itself is equally mental. You can do a year of full time military service, or 25 days volunteering for an organisation like the NHS. Who the fuck is going to pick military service.

And that's before you even consider the estimated cost is
It said 18-year-olds would have a choice of either joining the military full-time, or volunteering one weekend every month carrying out a community service.

And that's before you even consider the estimated cost is £2.5bn a year.

 

[shmmeee]

Never going to actually happen is it? Just hoping to stop a few voters fucking off to Reform.

 

[Jamesimus]

It’s an absolutely batshit mental thing to come out with.

Couldn’t stop laughing when I read it, an insane idea. Stands to cost a tonne of money and is completely out of touch with the reality of young people’s lives.

I realise the aim is to win back some older voters / ukippers of the past I imagine.

 

[eyesee]

And you think that’s as a result of benefits?

yes.

 

[SBT]

6, i didn't say they should get zero, but they should get less. i know of people who have never done a days work in their life, but live in a bigger house than me, drive a newer car than me, and never seem to be short of money.

The situation you’re describing usually has more to do with inheritance etc than benefits

 

[eyesee]

Well we do have it in the sense of you being able to go to a hospital and not be charged for services. Though let’s turn around your argument on dental care.

Why should I, as someone who doesn’t need dental treatment, have to contribute towards a service I don’t need? Why do people without children pay towards state education, people who oppose nuclear deterrents pay towards their upkeep, and so on and so forth?

i don't have kids, so have never used any of those services that i pay for. i've also never been in an ambulance, or had the need to use the fire service. but i am, of course, happy to pay for all of those things.
i needed dental work, and had to pay again. not fair.

 

[eyesee]

The situation you’re describing usually has more to do with inheritance etc than benefits

i'm talking about people i know. members of my family. i'd know if they'd inherited anything.

 

[eyesee]

I think the 'problem' is that you appear to think of everything from a personal perspective rather than a 'what is best overall'.

Saying "I've done this but someone else hasn't but they get this so why is that fair?" isn't thinking big enough. What matters is whether something makes life and society better overall. Hence why people like me see things like crime and drugs more along rehabilitation and prevention rather than punishment. It goes against the sensibilities we've been brought up with but evidence of countries that follow that mindset are better off.

don't describe my views as a problem. i give them a lot of thought, as it happens.

 

[skybluetony176]

He’s gone full scattergun. Throwing enough culture war bullshit hoping it sticks. It’s like he’s gone to a gammon convention and asked them what they think should happen, got out his bingo card and ticked off what the loudest frothers have shouted out. I wouldn’t be surprised if national service isn’t even the most mental thing he’s going to spout in this campaign.

 

[eyesee]

anyway, enough.
thanks for the discussion/interrogation. not that it has changed my opinion on any of the issues discussed.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Well we do have it in the sense of you being able to go to a hospital and not be charged for services. Though let’s turn around your argument on dental care.

Why should I, as someone who doesn’t need dental treatment, have to contribute towards a service I don’t need? Why do people without children pay towards state education, people who oppose nuclear deterrents pay towards their upkeep, and so on and so forth?

Hypothecated taxation - that would be fun

 

[skybluetony176]

James Cleverly doing the rounds this morning. If you dont do the military aspect of national service and take the civil aspect the civil aspect is unpaid. It will be compulsory to do national service but it won’t be a criminal offence to refuse to do it. It’s got more holes than Swiss cheese, a red meat gimmick for the frothers. They’re not taking this election seriously at all.

 

[stay_up_skyblues]

Ridiculous stuff. Although I would suggest paid national service as an alternative to a criminal record/prison term for offenders (non sex crimes) aged 18-30. Bit of direction to get them back on track and help the prison overcrowding issue.

 

[clint van damme]

James Cleverly doing the rounds this morning. If you dont do the military aspect of national service and take the civil aspect the civil aspect is unpaid. It will be compulsory to do national service but it won’t be a criminal offence to refuse to do it. It’s got more holes than Swiss cheese, a red meat gimmick for the frothers. They’re not taking this election seriously at all.

For Cleverley and others it's not an election campaign, it's leadership campaign.
Serving their own interests above those of the people of this country right until the bitter end.