Do you want to discuss boring politics? (35 Viewers)
- Thread starter mrtrench
- Start date
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
I think it is both.
1) The country doesn't have the infrastructure to sustain this level of population growth
2) Given that the increased number of population is largely down to immigration, surely that reduces the native population in time
I would argue that immigration on a controlled level is a good thing, but what we have been seeing, and are expected to keep on seeing, is a big problem for the future of the UK. Both on a sustainability and cultural level.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
4.9mn growth and we focus on 65000 or so
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
I had to go and look at some datasets
Median population growth 1945 - 2023 is 0.41% per year
Median population growth projected from 2023 to 2047 is 0.41% per year
Median population growth 1945 - 2023 is 0.41% per year
Median population growth projected from 2023 to 2047 is 0.41% per year
I think managing high numbers of new arrivals to the UK poses its own problems in terms of integration (although worth noting the UK generally does this better than many other countries already), but I don’t see any impending danger to British culture. Nor is there anything inherently wrong with the “native population” declining in percentage terms.
The ONS release says the rate of population growth in the UK will be slower for the next 25 years than it has been for the past 25.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Immigration is great from a public services standpoint. They pay tax and use fewer services generally as they’re healthy working adults on the whole.
Infrastructure isn’t fixed. If we need more we can build more. It’s just we’ve pretended for 40 years we can’t. The only person stopping us building schools, hospitals, prisons, housing and transport that we need is us.
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I do agree with you on the second paragraph completely. We are the masters of our own problems when it comes to that. Any time we do decide to do something about it, it seems to take a ridiculous amount of time anyway. My viewpoint on this would be coming from the angle that I have zero faith in the country actually doing something about infrastructure. Which means things only get more challenging with a larger population.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
I just want housing and transport man and it feels like with many things immigration is used as an excuse as to why the government is failing there.
I know we aren’t going to agree on the economics overall and I accept that the profile of immigrants has changed (fewer masters students more Deliveroo drivers), but then I’d argue that was always going to happen after Brexit swapping Poles for Indians.
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
I'm afraid I can't get on board with the idea of having a lower percentage of native population being a good thing, even though since being back here I do seem to encounter a lot of idiots! Surely it directly effects British culture if there are less and less people here that are British? I'm not sure how you can argue against that really. Like I said though, I don't have any faith in the country building the infrastructure needed to support a growth in population regardless of who's in that - and that's a massive issue. Not just in the future, but we're already past breaking point now.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
How would you then get round the problem of an aging population? Also who are you counting as native population, how many generations down the line from immigrants do you have to be to meet your definition of native?
Why not?
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
I mean on a level I agree. Being British is about culture more than birthplace and culture is passed down via majority really. But then I’d argue we’ve been doing a fine job of diluting our own culture voluntarily and immigrant ghettos or not these days most people don’t do the kinds of mass activities you need to inculcate culture in natives. I suspect a lot of the fear of losing British identity is as much about a more atomised and globalised culture as much as anything.
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
I don't think it is a good thing for a nation to lose its identity. By continuously lowering the native population, you erase its culture. That is one of the best things about travelling for me, seeing different places and cultures, meeting different people. If everywhere was the same, then what is the point? This isn't just restricted to the UK. I would apply the same viewpoint towards places like Benidorm in Spain.
Why would you want that to replace the native population? Would you like to see this in other countries too? I am very curious as to why you want this to happen.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
At some point though you’re telling people how to live. No don’t eat McDonalds that’s American, don’t watch Anime that’s Japanese, etc etc. I’ve been watching a lot of sixties stuff recently and the culture was much stronger but also more oppressive towards those who didn’t want to live like that. That’s the trade off.
Ultimately globalisation and optimisation in capitalism has meant every town looks the same and soon every country will look the same. I’m not sure how you reverse that TBH immigration or not.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Is that like getting drunk and vomiting in your neighbours garden??
Or smoking
Or street parties for the king?
I always thought it was reasonableness kindness rooting for the underdog fairness organisation
How wrong can one be eh
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
I do acknowledge that globalisation has an impact, and it is an interesting topic because you see effects of it in the strangest of places. The difference is there are McDonald's in places like Vietnam, but you walk around there and know exactly where you are. You notice it, but it doesn't have a significant impact on the culture of the country the same way as importing millions of non-native people does.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Can you elaborate? I think most immigrants over time do integrate. Even the Deliveroo drivers when I taught their kids they were pretty British. Watched football, drank in pubs, spoke with an accent exceedingly rare, etc.
It’s not that I actively want it to happen, I just don’t share the fear/insecurity that British culture is disappearing. What’s the evidence for it? British cultural exports are wildly popular, many of them younger than I am, many of them reflecting our status as a multicultural country as well. Our immigrant population is bigger than ever, yet our culture is not just intact, it’s revered worldwide.
CovValleyBoy
Well-Known Member
Mr Shmmeee ,
Please have a month off.
For your own well being. Sincerely, I mean well.
It's borderline insanity the amount of posting you do on a Cov City forum.
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
I'll try my best!
The immigrant population in Vietnam is about 0.08%. Saigon feels like Vietnam. Benidorm in Spain has a much larger immigrant population, about 8% of the population are in fact British, for example. Even out of season when it isn't full of holidaymakers, I wouldn't say Benidorm feels very Spanish. The same can be applied to many Spanish towns which have taken over by Brits. They aren't very good at integrating either, and are absolutely useless at learning the language. Personally it gives me the ick.
There are many towns and cities in the UK now that represent the parallel of Benidorm in Spain, for example, Bradford. Maybe you are right, and some of the people there do integrate to some degree, maybe even better than those we are talking about in Spain. I think however, there are an increasing number of areas in the UK where this isn't the case though, and it feels more noticeable walking around.
The stats support this with an increase in immigrant population, and a decrease on birth rates, but I think it totally depends on culture and numbers. Some people move into areas with lots other people from their country, some don't. It is more sustainable and easier to manage in places like the Vietnam example I gave, where as you see the kind of numbers we have in the UK, and it is sort of inevitable that certain areas no longer feel very British. If there are no British people living there, I'm not sure how it can be.
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
Maybe I just see it differently as I have spent some years away, but it does feel a lot more noticeable to me. I think there is enough evidence when you overlap with the statistics on immigration, and you do get a flavour for it walking around generally any large town and city.
I get the concept of being multi-cultural, it's why I always bang on about us being a very tolerant country in general, and I think that gets lost sometimes. You still have to have a mother culture though. If things carry on as they are, and the native population decreases, you will just have a multi-cultural melting pot, not Great Britain. It goes back to my main point with immigration really, it is a very good thing so long as it is managed responsibly. I just don't think it has been at all, and generally speaking a lot of the country feel the same way. 70 something percent on the last poll I saw.
What's noticeable? I'm struggling to understand which aspects of British culture are disappearing.
You can't just preserve a country's culture in amber, and there aren't many examples of a mother culture completely disappearing as a result of voluntary immigration anyway - countries have been dealing with it in their own ways for centuries. Hence why multi-cultural France is completely differenct from multi-cultural UK is completely different from multi-cultural United States etc etc
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Latest ONS predictions are that by 2030 deaths in the UK will be higher than births (which continue to fall). The harsh truth is some people are going to have to grow up and accept immigration into the UK as a necessity more than ever. Either that or except the decline of UK by every measure.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Come on don’t speak negativity into the country
We just need a bit of enthusiasm and optimism maybe a few racist jokes and all will be well
Reform will solve it with their conjuring tricks and simple no nonsense solutions to complex problems
It’s always worked in the past
Look at Boris joke here push over there swear a bit
Impregnate your girlfriend while married to your wife
All will be fine
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Funny argument this cos it’s the same everywhere bar Africa. So either every country has to figure out an economy not reliant on an expanding population or we’re hoping Africans stay poor enough to repopulate everywhere.
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
You could give me maybe one specific example? I promise I'm not playing dumb!
Deaths have been higher than births in some years already. This is the latest ONS projection
The short term/easy/lazy solution is the same as big business and various governments have encouraged over the past 20 years ….lets just get more people in. What happens when they all get old though ? The recent levels of net migration are totally unsustainable. That’s not to say a certain level is not required however it needs to be part of a proper industrial strategy/ population plan* which various governments seem totally incapable of comprehending, let alone undertaking
*taking into consideration various areas such as child care, short/medium/long term labour requirements, education, infrastructure, housing etc etc
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
You’re talking about an age old problem though. The only thing that’s changing is the mechanics. High enough birth rates to maintain an aging population, grow the economy etc vs high enough immigration to maintain an aging population, grow the economy etc. The only thing that’s changing is how you maintain the status quo of having enough people working, so basically nothing is changing.
There’s another study recently that also predicts that a 7% raise in income tax without immigration due to falling birth rates.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
There is no population plan. Every country is trying including a lot of quite authoritarian ones trying things Brits wouldn’t be comfortable with. As income goes up the opportunity cost of children goes up with it and people have fewer kids. It’s happening everywhere peoples incomes have gone up across the board. Short of returning to mass poverty there’s nothing that can force people to have kids they don’t want because it’ll harm their careers.