Do you want to discuss boring politics? (36 Viewers)

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Well in a company of 100 people all on PHI it would

Did you miss the part where I said LARGE companies?

 

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[Grendel]

So it's affordable for companies to give it to the people that can afford it for themselves? And let me guess, you reckon in no way should shareholder returns be compromised to benefit the workforce...

Who are the first people to complain about absenteeism and people off sick? Companies. They claim it costs the UK economy over £100bn a year! Public health services are getting ever larger backlogs so those off sick are getting larger and being off for longer.

Bit like when the likes of Salt and Cadbury building their own worker villages. People said it was madness and would bankrupt them. Ending up being a massive benefit for them.

P.S. I love it when you call my ideas stupid - it reaffirms my belief that they most definitely aren't. If anyone is renowned for shit-takes on here it's you.

It’s insane. The average cost to a company for such a scheme is around £7,000 an employee.

I couldn’t have afforded it myself but still had £1,500 deducted from my salary every year and claimed once in 28 years

Large companies do have long term sick policies which is totally different to PHI - if employees have cancer it makes zero difference - it’s the amount of critical illness they allow under their contract

You said it should be the same as pensions. Employees contribute massively to pensions so you’d I assume agree they would to this?

 

[MalcSB]

They would like it even less when they get a P11D bill for an extra £1,500

I guess that depends whether the government of whatever day this approach is approved recognise that there would be a benefit worth more that the P11D potential.

 

[Grendel]

Did you miss the part where I said LARGE companies?

Oh how do you define a large company which is allowed a special tax exemption versus smaller ones?

 

[Grendel]

I guess that depends whether the government of whatever day this approach is approved recognise that there would be a benefit worth more that the P11D potential.

It’s ultimately a nonsense argument as ironically it’s going down the route of privatising healthcare for the masses

 

[Grendel]

Nah I wasn't but it’s a global company with plenty money to spare to be fair.

Did you pay a taxable benefit?

 

[Grendel]

The whole debate is stupid anyway as surely trade unions would absolutely object to schemes which did not support the NHS as the free at the point of return for health. No socialist worth his salt would want private treatment

Would they?

 

[MalcSB]

It’s ultimately a nonsense argument as ironically it’s going down the route of privatising healthcare for the masses

Is ther much wrong with that if it ends up with better access for everybody.

 

[Grendel]

Is ther much wrong with that if it ends up with better access for everybody.

Welk there will not be as the capacity doesn’t exist.

I’ve always said we should actually offer tax rebates to get people to take out PHI to get them out the public system. Same for education. Offer rebates for private school fees and allow the tax system to find those in need than have envy politics

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

It’s insane. The average cost to a company for such a scheme is around £7,000 an employee.

I couldn’t have afforded it myself but still had £1,500 deducted from my salary every year and claimed once in 28 years

Large companies do have long term sick policies which is totally different to PHI - if employees have cancer it makes zero difference - it’s the amount of critical illness they allow under their contract

You said it should be the same as pensions. Employees contribute massively to pensions so you’d I assume agree they would to this?

For a large company that is practically nothing. Especially when they will also get at least some of that back.

As for having some form of employee contribution with the majority being covered by the company, it would be an option to be discussed. As with pensions maybe it could be an opt-out if they choose. But there are plenty of other potential options involving tax benefits for both employee and employer.

I get the impression you're just snobbish and don't think plebs should get decent healthcare.

 

[Grendel]

The more pertinent point is that natural monopoly services do not benefit from privatisation and energy, transport and utilities are all natural monopolies.

From a company point of view, it's a difficult sell to a company to say you need to continue to make NI contributions and recommend you also pay for PHI provision for your staff. I know some large companies do it as part of their benefits package but most do not and probably couldn't afford to.

It is true and I’ve never understood privatising the commanding heights. You can’t have taste the difference gas.

All utilities should be state owned and everyone lays the same

Our railway network was destroyed by Beaverbrook and should be a tax funded public transport system

 

[Grendel]

For a large company that is practically nothing. Especially when they will also get at least some of that back.

As for having some form of employee contribution with the majority being covered by the company, it would be an option to be discussed. As with pensions maybe it could be an opt-out if they choose. But there are plenty of other potential options involving tax benefits for both employee and employer.

I get the impression you're just snobbish and don't think plebs should get decent healthcare.

You may need to ask yourself why no one has considered this great initiative of yours?

You do seem a very bitter man dripping with resentment. Despise the rich, despise the pensioners, despise the management.

You hate your lack of achievement don’t you?

 

[MalcSB]

The whole debate is stupid anyway as surely trade unions would absolutely object to schemes which did not support the NHS as the free at the point of return for health. No socialist worth his salt would want private treatment

Would they?

I think they would if the alternate was a long and painful wait for their child. If provided free.

Pensioners would be denied access to this approach as they don’t have employers. Thank goodness they are all millionaires. If only they had contributed to healthcare provision through, I don’t know, let’s call it national insurance and / or income tax. If only they continued to contribute in some way.

 

[MalcSB]

For a large company that is practically nothing. Especially when they will also get at least some of that back.

As for having some form of employee contribution with the majority being covered by the company, it would be an option to be discussed. As with pensions maybe it could be an opt-out if they choose. But there are plenty of other potential options involving tax benefits for both employee and employer.

I get the impression you're just snobbish and don't think plebs should get decent healthcare.

Of course the plebs should get decent healthcare.

I'm a pleb and have had decent care ( and expensive care to boot) recently. Unfortunately it would appear that is not a universal experience. Something needs to change.

 

[fernandopartridge]

What really is the point?

UK Treasury eyes spending cuts at GB Energy in blow to Ed Miliband

State-owned company was set up with mission to invest in renewables and decarbonisation of the grid

www.ft.com

 

[Captain Dart]

What really is the point?

UK Treasury eyes spending cuts at GB Energy in blow to Ed Miliband

State-owned company was set up with mission to invest in renewables and decarbonisation of the grid

www.ft.com

They have a new way to impoverish the country.

 

[SBAndy]

It’s insane. The average cost to a company for such a scheme is around £7,000 an employee.

I couldn’t have afforded it myself but still had £1,500 deducted from my salary every year and claimed once in 28 years

Large companies do have long term sick policies which is totally different to PHI - if employees have cancer it makes zero difference - it’s the amount of critical illness they allow under their contract

You said it should be the same as pensions. Employees contribute massively to pensions so you’d I assume agree they would to this?

Boy, your tiny little brain will explode when I tell you I work for a firm with over 10,000 UK employees and all have private health insurance. What’s more, it’s free of charge for employee.

 

[SBAndy]

What really is the point?

UK Treasury eyes spending cuts at GB Energy in blow to Ed Miliband

State-owned company was set up with mission to invest in renewables and decarbonisation of the grid

www.ft.com

Can’t read the article but good ol’ HMT.

 

[Grendel]

Boy, your tiny little brain will explode when I tell you I work for a firm with over 10,000 UK employees and all have private health insurance. What’s more, it’s free of charge for employee.

I don’t think my brain is smaller than the average - so how does it not attract an employee tax BIK liability?

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

It’s insane. The average cost to a company for such a scheme is around £7,000 an employee.

I couldn’t have afforded it myself but still had £1,500 deducted from my salary every year and claimed once in 28 years

Large companies do have long term sick policies which is totally different to PHI - if employees have cancer it makes zero difference - it’s the amount of critical illness they allow under their contract

You said it should be the same as pensions. Employees contribute massively to pensions so you’d I assume agree they would to this?

It’s not the same thing, but Germany’s mixed system does collect 7% of employee’s pre-tax salary and that’s matched by employers.

One of Germany’s systems issue is ironically an oversupply of staff, equipment and so on.

Particularly in Europe, there’s a mix of public, non-profit and private hospitals but in the UK, the public sector crowds out both sectors.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

What really is the point?

UK Treasury eyes spending cuts at GB Energy in blow to Ed Miliband

State-owned company was set up with mission to invest in renewables and decarbonisation of the grid

www.ft.com

GB Energy was always a bad idea and it took less than a year for the Government to cotton on.

 

[MalcSB]

You may need to ask yourself why no one has considered this great initiative of yours?

You do seem a very bitter man dripping with resentment. Despise the rich, despise the pensioners, despise the management.

You hate your lack of achievement don’t you?

How much could he have been expected to achieve at 13?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I think they would if the alternate was a long and painful wait for their child. If provided free.

Pensioners would be denied access to this approach as they don’t have employers. Thank goodness they are all millionaires. If only they had contributed to healthcare provision through, I don’t know, let’s call it national insurance and / or income tax. If only they continued to contribute in some way.

I am aware that when retired pensioners would lose access to this. But hopefully due to the reduction in working age people accessing the service they should receive better/more care from the public health service.

The biggest issue with that of course is capacity, and creating additional overall capacity rather than at the moment, which appears to be the same capacity and more being diverted to private healthcare. But that is an issue whatever system you look at.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

You may need to ask yourself why no one has considered this great initiative of yours?

You do seem a very bitter man dripping with resentment. Despise the rich, despise the pensioners, despise the management.

You hate your lack of achievement don’t you?

First point seems to have been answered quite nicely by someone telling you that their large company pretty much does exactly that.

As for it not gaining traction, because we're too in thrall to those with money, and therefore power. We have a society that has been taught to believe that the rich have to be rich so that the can provide money and jobs to those who aren't. Not because it's true, but because it's what the rich need people to think to maintain their favourable status quo. If you want a decent society you build it from the bottom up, not the top down.

And I'm extremely happy with my life thank you very much. I enjoy my work/life balance and have as much as I need. Of course, I could have been like my old boss who just worked all the time and earned lots of money. Except for the fact he had a heart attack at an age younger than I am now and by the time he was a pensioner pretty much did nothing but sit in a chair all day because he couldn't do anything his health was so poor. Yeah, so wish that was me!

 

[MalcSB]

It’s not the same thing, but Germany’s mixed system does collect 7% of employee’s pre-tax salary and that’s matched by employers.

One of Germany’s systems issue is ironically an oversupply of staff, equipment and so on.

Particularly in Europe, there’s a mix of public, non-profit and private hospitals but in the UK, the public sector crowds out both of sectors.

Doesn’t the UK government collect a percentage of employees salary and a Value equivalent to a percentage of that employees salary from the employer? Don’t they call that National Insurance?

Ive not been employed for a while and some things are hard to remember, but if my recollection is correct then what Germany does in terms of raising funds for healthcare is not really all that different.

 

[MalcSB]

First point seems to have been answered quite nicely by someone telling you that their large company pretty much does exactly that.

As for it not gaining traction, because we're too in thrall to those with money, and therefore power. We have a society that has been taught to believe that the rich have to be rich so that the can provide money and jobs to those who aren't. Not because it's true, but because it's what the rich need people to think to maintain their favourable status quo. If you want a decent society you build it from the bottom up, not the top down.

And I'm extremely happy with my life thank you very much. I enjoy my work/life balance and have as much as I need. Of course, I could have been like my old boss who just worked all the time and earned lots of money. Except for the fact he had a heart attack at an age younger than I am now and by the time he was a pensioner pretty much did nothing but sit in a chair all day because he couldn't do anything his health was so poor. Yeah, so wish that was me!

So you don’t maximise your potential income as a matter of choice, and then basically blame boomers for having everything handed to them on a plate (which they had probably worked very hard for). You can’t be very happy in reality else you wouldn’t need to be regularly having a go at boomers.

I made a comment on this thread a while ago about my generation having worked hard for what they got when younger, and immediately got jumped on by people saying that they also work hard. It would appear that you, for one, don’t and are extremely happy with your life and have everything you need. If that is the case, why are you having a pretty regular “go” at boomers.

Be careful what you wish for, even if it is in jest.

 

[shmmeee]

Number of people in this thread apoplectic if their tax goes up £5/mo, desperately begging to pay £500/mo extra in healthcare costs.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Number of people in this thread apoplectic if their tax goes up £5/mo, desperately begging to pay £500/mo extra in healthcare costs.

It’s probably closer to £100 and the cost to me is the income tax in that value. In reality, it’s probably £20 a month, if that when I account for pre-tax deductions.

Now, is that a good trade? Absolutely. On my last NHS appointment, the doctor apologised because I was lost in the system. Thankfully, I was in a position where I could go private. Likewise, I needed another procedure that I’d put off 2-3 months and when I eventually called my insurer, the pre-authorisation was given over the form and I’d book with the provider when one week. The value for money is fantastic.

Employer insurance schemes are essentially ‘socialised’ across the business.

For anyone who’s actually experienced private healthcare, the service is much better and you get seen to quickly. It’s not all perfect but anyone who is working age should absolutely be signposted to PHI (either individually or as a group i.e. employer) and the tax incentives should be there to support that.

It’s rather odd that there’s a few posters who are dead set against the private sector when they’ve got no experience of it as a consumer.

 

[shmmeee]

It’s probably closer to £100 and the cost to me is the income tax in that value. In reality, it’s probably £20 a month, if that when I account for pre-tax deductions.

Now, is that a good trade? Absolutely. On my last NHS appointment, the doctor apologised because I was lost in the system. Thankfully, I was in a position where I could go private. Likewise, I needed another procedure that I’d put off 2-3 months and when I eventually called my insurer, the pre-authorisation was given over the form and I’d book with the provider when one week. The value for money is fantastic.

Employer insurance schemes are essentially ‘socialised’ across the business.

For anyone who’s actually experienced private healthcare, the service is much better and you get seen to quickly. It’s not all perfect but anyone who is working age should absolutely be signposted to PHI (either individually or as a group i.e. employer) and the tax incentives should be there to support that.

It’s rather odd that there’s a few posters who are dead set against the private sector when they’ve got no experience of it as a consumer.

It’s that much because you won’t be covered for a whole bunch of stuff. I pay like £20/mo or something through my employer but that’s not comparable to a fully private system that doesn’t cost the taxpayer anything. For that you’re looking at hundreds a month unless you’re young and fit.

 

[MalcSB]

I am aware that when retired pensioners would lose access to this. But hopefully due to the reduction in working age people accessing the service they should receive better/more care from the public health service.

The biggest issue with that of course is capacity, and creating additional overall capacity rather than at the moment, which appears to be the same capacity and more being diverted to private healthcare. But that is an issue whatever system you look at.

It wouldn’t be the same capacity. It may well be the same consultant grade staff, but they will have worked their NHS contracted hours. So that is extra capacity. The NHS could “buy” additional consultant capacity by offering additional sessions. These days, however, consultants may well tell their Trusts to fuck off, either because they aren’t being offered enough money or because they have read about your ex boss.

In a scenario where phi was part of the remuneration package, wouldn't it be expected that the private health sector would use their own hospitals, theatres, diagnostic. All additional capacity.

So, the additional capacity released should support an outcome you describe in the first couple of sentences. A win, win, win situation all round. Workers get a better service, as do pensioners and capitalist bastard employers are effectively “taxed“ another 7% or so.

I suppose the fly in the ointment would be whether a government - of any persuasion - would be able to resist reducing the NHS budget whilst not reducing taxation.

 

[MalcSB]

It’s that much because you won’t be covered for a whole bunch of stuff. I pay like £20/mo or something through my employer but that’s not comparable to a fully private system that doesn’t cost the taxpayer anything. For that you’re looking at hundreds a month unless you’re young and fit.

You are correct, phi wouldn't cover everything. I don’t know of any private hospital that has an A&E department for example. Private health tends to be very good for elective care which is preplanned ( possibly mainly on Friday judging by the number of car park spaces in hospital staff car parks across the country, including UHCW.)

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

So you don’t maximise your potential income as a matter of choice, and then basically blame boomers for having everything handed to them on a plate (which they had probably worked very hard for). You can’t be very happy in reality else you wouldn’t need to be regularly having a go at boomers.

I made a comment on this thread a while ago about my generation having worked hard for what they got when younger, and immediately got jumped on by people saying that they also work hard. It would appear that you, for one, don’t and are extremely happy with your life and have everything you need. If that is the case, why are you having a pretty regular “go” at boomers.

Be careful what you wish for, even if it is in jest.

I'm not 'anti-boomer'. My parents would have been boomers.

My issue is that there is a very vocal number among them who seem to do nothing but complain despite the fact they're the most looked after generation to have ever existed. Cheaper housing as a proportion of wages, and the option of proper social housing (until they were given the option of buying them on the cheap). Half decent wages in more secure jobs. They are the biggest beneficiaries of the welfare state and were the first generation to have the benefit of free healthcare at the point of use. They had access to defined benefit pensions. Now they're older they get free prescriptions, eye tests, hearing tests, bus passes amongst other things. They have a triple lock pension yet wages for those actually working get no such guarantees. And I don't begrudge them any of those things. What I do begrudge is them not being thankful for it. Because it looks highly likely the generations following them won't get half of what they've had.

This especially grates when some of them then go on to have a go at younger generations who don't have half of the stuff they have or had and just complain that they're lazy and just need to stop buying avocados and mochachocalattes.

And although you are probably right that most worked hard, there will also be some who didn't. Just as today the vast majority of people are honest and hardworking with just a small number who don't. And while I don't doubt you worked hard I'll bet you'd have found it a far greater struggle now even with putting in the same effort.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

So you don’t maximise your potential income as a matter of choice, and then basically blame boomers for having everything handed to them on a plate (which they had probably worked very hard for). You can’t be very happy in reality else you wouldn’t need to be regularly having a go at boomers.

I made a comment on this thread a while ago about my generation having worked hard for what they got when younger, and immediately got jumped on by people saying that they also work hard. It would appear that you, for one, don’t and are extremely happy with your life and have everything you need. If that is the case, why are you having a pretty regular “go” at boomers.

Be careful what you wish for, even if it is in jest.

Because they do. The difference is that an honest day's work doesn't get you as much as it did in the past and the work itself is generally less secure with worse conditions and benefits. No coincidence that this took place at the same time as a collapse in workplace organisation.

My PhD stipend is sub-minimum wage and there are people raking it in because they make slurpy noises on TikTok. Make it make sense

 

[MalcSB]

Because they do. The difference is that an honest day's work doesn't get you as much as it did in the past and the work itself is generally less secure with worse conditions and benefits. No coincidence that this took place at the same time as a collapse in workplace organisation.

My PhD stipend is sub-minimum wage and there are people raking it in because they make slurpy noises on TikTok. Make it make sense

What generation are the Tik Tok slurpers? What generation watch them slurping? What’s stopping you becoming a semi professional slurper?

 

[shmmeee]

What generation are the Tik Tok slurpers? What generation watch them slurping? What’s stopping you becoming a semi professional slurper?

The health risks!

Nikocado Avocado - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org